Pannepot (Old Fisherman's Ale) Clone Thread

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

saq, gio, Tall,

I've set up 3 - 2lb orders for D-180 for this clone trial based on your existing profiles. saq, this should get to you before your move.

Cheers!

 

[Tall_Yotie]

kappa,

Your order went out today Priority. Should be 3 days to you. BTW, I like your take on the recipe. Looking forward to the taste trials.

Tall,

It looks like we have 4 recipes in all. saq, gio, Tall, and Kappa. This is going to be a great trial.

And your recipe SUU, unless you are counting yours and mine as the same!

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

And your recipe SUU, unless you are counting yours and mine as the same!

I have to say, kappa has me doubting. What a fantastic label that was. I'm going to take a day and think about this and confer with better brewers than myself. Definitely going to stay with at least 1lb D-180, will likely stay with the spices from oldsock and Tall. The Dingeman's Pils is a lock and may go with only Belgian Pils. The dark malt is in play. gio makes a good point on too much of good thing. I don't want to make anything having a porter/stout back-palate. We can get both coffee and chocolate malt. Last but not least is the cane sugar. We'll probably go with Jaggary. Not sure how much just yet.

I'll rework this recipe and have it up in the AM tomorrow.

That makes 5 recipes in all I think. Tall, our recipes will be close but even subtle differences will make them unique.

BTW, anybody want to be famous? If you take a BJCP 1st place using our syrups we'll put your mug and ribbon in Zymurgy magazine this Fall! (full 1/2 page ad).

 

[Tall_Yotie]

I have to say, kappa has me doubting. What a fantastic label that was. I'm going to take a day and think about this and confer with better brewers than myself. Definitely going to stay with at least 1lb D-180, will likely stay with the spices from oldsock and Tall. The Dingeman's Pils is a lock and may go with only Belgian Pils. The dark malt is in play. gio makes a good point on too much of good thing. I don't want to make anything having a porter/stout back-palate. We can get both coffee and chocolate malt. Last but not least is the cane sugar. We'll probably go with Jaggary. Not sure how much just yet.

I'll rework this recipe and have it up in the AM tomorrow.

That makes 5 recipes in all I think. Tall, our recipes will be close but even subtle differences will make them.

BTW, anybody want to be famous? If you take a BJCP 1st place using our syrups we'll put your mug and ribbon in Zymurgy magazine this Fall! (full 1/2 page ad).

Sounds good to me! I was also worried that too dark of malts would lead to it being stout-esque. I am going to work on the recipe a bit more. Was going to check out the LHBS, but my wife is sick so I am taking care of her.

 

[kappajoe]

What are we thinking for mash temp?? I have used T-58 yeast a few times and gotten between 75-80% attenuation (without using sugar)...
2# of sugar plus flake corn will definitely help with attenuation once the yeast gets going, so should we use a mash temp around 156-158F to keep it around this range?
I think 76-77% is what I will be shooting for.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

I was concerned about it ending too low myself. I think 156 minimum. If following the stats that were in the image with the label, we want 70%, or 75% if going from other sources. This is an area I don't have much experience in (%AA at high temps) so I would be tempted to say 158.

What was the range of mash temps you used with the T-58 that got that attenuation?

 

[kappajoe]

149-154F was the range...
basically playing around with witbier recipes and this yeast.
If our beer OG is 1100... according to Beertools, 77% atten. would give us 10%abv.
FG would be around 1.024

 

[Tall_Yotie]

So....

Your graphic show FG of 1030
It also states ABV 10% (no decimal accuracy)
Other sources seem to say FG 1025

So I think I am going to aim for 1030 to 1025; wide range, but that way I can feel safe with it and be happy wherever it ends up.

Seems 156F would work best. Oldsock used 155, though his low FG may have been a fluke. SO I am going to aim at 156, but if I hit 157 I will keep it there.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Here's where we're at on our recipe evolution (version 1.3). Over 1/2 lb of chocolate malt may create an almost Porter-like palate so we're backing off and using a light roast coffee malt, (Franco-Belges Coffee Malt), to be our dark malt flavor carrier. Also, D-180 will be carrying its own weight in back-palate coffee and chocolate flavors. I like oldsock's concept of adjusting the spice percentages in real time by adding a sterile spice tea to the fermenter. We'll start low and then increase the spices if needed. Hopefully this will cut down the batches needed to get a reasonably accurate clone.

SRM: 34
OG: 1.101
FG: 1.025
IBU: 24

16.0 Dingeman's Belgian Pilsner
0.50 Castle Belgian Special "B"
0.20 Franco-Belges Kiln Coffee Malt
0.15 Fawcett Pale Chocolate Malt
0.10 Carafa II
0.25 Flaked Maize
1.00 D-180 Candi Syrup
0.50 Jaggary

(all spices pre-steeped as a tea and added at flame-out)
3g Coriander seed
5g Orange Peel
1g Cinnamon
1g Thyme

Bramling Cross 2.00 oz (60 min)
Hallaertau Mittelfruh 1.00 oz (15 min)

4 packs - T-58 (Jamil's calculator)

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Seems my brewing might be delayed. I didn't specify a PayPal shipping address for the syrup, so it is going to a default address that I only visit occasionally weekends. Depending on how long shipping takes, I may be brewing the following weekend and not this one. We shall see.

But i have a recipe nailed down, will post it once I confirm the LHBS has the grains I want!

 

[passedpawn]

Hi guys. I'll be brewing this next wkend. I'm using some rye in there in place of a good percentage of the pilsner. I'll post recipe later (off to soccer game now). Cheers.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Tall_Yotie makes a good point on shipping. We're likely going to move away from using Parcel Post as a shipping method. It's slower than Priority.

Before we send out the shipping fee is everyone OK with Priority Shipping cost for the D-180?

A $10.50 Priority box will fit up to 10 syrup pouches (10 lbs). Our web sales system isn't up until June but we can direct invoice as we did with kappa. We have stock of D-90, D-180, and Simplicity if anyone wants to use the remaining box space for orders. This way you get the most from the shipping cost. Let us know and we'll pack up to 10 lbs (2 lbs free for the Pannepot trial) per request.

 

[saq]

My Pannepot Reserva came in today, its in the fridge and I will crack it open and enjoy it tonight
Tasting notes to follow

 

[saq]

My bottle is a 2008 Pannepot Reserva
Appearance: Cloudy brown, not black. Moderate-thin white frothy head that fades to a ring.
Aroma: Moderately dark stone fruit, fig, spices of coriander with a hint of cinnamon, a little Belgian yeast esters. Rich but not too dark.
Flavor: Thick quad with spices. Again date and fig presence is noted along with a lightly sweet coriander like spice character. If I didn't know any better I probably wouldn't notice the french oak, its really quite subtle.
Mouthfeel: Very thick, almost syrupy, but it refrains from being cloying and unpleasant. The carbonation seems a little low, perhaps its not as carbonated as the normal Pannepot.
Overall: A big, rich, if a little heavy, quad. Great for sipping to enjoy the complexities.

I'd call the FG at 1.025-1.027, 1.030 seems too high. I also think that the syrup contributions are probably around 9-10% and probably a mix of D1 and D2 (or D90 and D180). I'm not sure about maize as that would dry this out which you want to avoid with this beer.
If I were to use Westmalle yeast (which would be close, but not identical) I'd mash at 153-154 and keep the ferm temp from getting over 78f.
I'm inclined to use that unless someone has some good familiarity brewing with the T58 and share what a good strategy would be to get the beer where we want.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Good notes on the FG and the fruit notes. As for the carbonation, I recall it being fairly low as well.

If you think the maize is going to lead to it being too dry then I may drop down the amount I am using.

Also, if I hadn't heard from other folk's info, I would not be using cane sugar in equal proportions to the syrup, but apparently that is what they are using.

Saq, are you concerned that at 154F you will end up too dry?

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

saq, that description is amazing. It helps considerably. Did you pick up on any citrus, coffee or chocolate notes? Also, is the yeast profile giving that slight funky-spice as in T-58?

We will likely not start our brewing until Sat the 21st. We have Bramling Cross hops and Franco-Belges Coffee malt on the way.

 

[saq]

I think if you keep the sugar additions down to ~10% (2lbs in a 5g batch) and mash at 154 and keep the fermentation temp coolish, maybe even 76f, we will probably see our target FG.
I did a 1.094 OG quad with a comparable grist but 17% sugars (3.25lbs) and mashed at 152 and I couldn't get it to go lower than 1.016. If I were to swap a 1.25lbs of sugar and even my gravity on malt I'm sure it would be 1.020 if not higher. A little higher mash temp, a little lower fermentation temp and 1.024 shouldn't be too hard. I personally will probably shoot for a lower FG than what the real thing has, probably 1.022 because I like them on the dryer side.
I'll work out the math on what I think a clone recipe would be this weekend. I'm in the middle of moving so I won't be able to brew this for a few weeks.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Did some research, and Urbain of Struise says that they use 4% candi syrup and 4% candi rock. Part of me wants to use then an even mix of the darker and not as dark (180 and 90) syrup, 1lb each. Would we want to skip the cane sugar all together, or have 2lb candi syrup and 1lb (or whatever you are using) of cane sugar?

 

[saq]

In a 5.5g batch 1lbs is about 5%, so that would work.
Did he say he was using dark candi rock or clear candi rock? Clear candi rock is totally pointless, just add granulated sugar (Since_Uuz_Up can back me up on this). On top of that clear sugar isn't going to add any flavor, just thin out the beer. Since we don't want to thin out the beer any more than we need to
If he's using dark candi rock he's probably using it for complexity, in which case the d90/d180 combo would work well.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

I sent him an email for clarification, nothing back yet. I was confused as the label did say cane sugar, but doesn't seem right for the style. I think I may ditch the cane sugar and sub in the d-90. I like the idea of more candi syrup. And using the d-90 for more complexity sounds good. d-45 might be too light and get lost with the spices and the d-180.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Clear candi rock is totally pointless, just add granulated sugar (Since_Uuz_Up can back me up on this).

Absolutely, clear "Belgian" rock candi is only partially inverted and the net difference to table sucrose is minimal. Adding either table sugar or rock candy to beer is tricky. Too much and it can slow your attenuation. In medium or low gravity beers its effect isn't noticed as much, however, in high gravity ales, (like this group is becoming known for), initial fermentation times are key to the recipe. A slowed down yeast becomes ineffective but 4% rock sugar sounds well within limits.

 

[kappajoe]

I my experience... you don't have to worry about sugar until you get in the 15-17% or higher range.
Our 8-10% should not slow down the yeast in this brew...

I plan on adding the Piloncillo cane sugar at the beginning of the boil and the D-180 towards the end.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I my experience... you don't have to worry about sugar until you get in the 15-17% or higher range.
Our 8-10% should not slow down the yeast in this brew...

I plan on adding the Piloncillo cane sugar at the beginning of the boil and the D-180 towards the end.

Yes, agreed, however, we show some slowdown at about 10% pure sucrose. Partial invert (Belgian rock) should be fine up to 15%.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

So, is there any actual reason to add cane sugar? I think 2lb of candi syrup, mix of d180 and d90 should do it. Maybe candi sugar = syrup and can sugar = rock candi for what the label says?

If you can tell me a good reason to go with actual cane sugar, by all means please let me know.

 

[saq]

It just increases the level of attenuation of the beer, no flavor is added. For this beer I really don't think it is necessary unless we get some more specific brewing instructions from Urbain like he mashes at 160f and can only get his FG by these fermentables.
In any case candi syrup will increase attenuation just like cane sugar but it also increases flavor, so whats what I'm going with.
1lbs D90 and 1lbs D180 added at flameout for me.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Hit up the LHBS today, got my ingredients. Here is my recipe:

batch size: 5.25g
OG: 1.100
FG: 1.025 (hopefully)

12 Belgian Pilsner
4 German Pilsner
1/2 Belgian Special B
1/4 Flaked Maize
1/8 Carafa II
1/8 Chocolate Malt
1/8 Pale Chocolate Malt
1 Candi Syrup D180
1 Candi Syrup D90

2.0 oz Kent Goldings 45min
1.0 oz Hallertau 45min

spices added @2min:
5.0g fresh orange peel
3.0g cracked coriander
1.0g cracked cinnamon stick
1.0g dried thyme

T-58 Yeast

Mash at 156F

Going with the 156F as I had a brew go from 1.112 to 1.030 with a healthy starter of WLP013 (London Ale Yeast) at 154F mash. So, wanting to make sure I don't dry out too much.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

This will be our maiden recipe. We'll hopefully brew this Friday.

OG 1.100
FG 1.025
IBU 27
SRM 35

16.0 Dingeman’s Belgian Pils
0.10 Carafa II
0.15 Franco-Belges Kiln Coffee
0.15 Fawcett Pale Chocolate
0.50 Belgian Special B
0.25 Flaked Maize
1.50 D-180 Candi Syrup

2.0z Bramling Cross (45 min)
1.0z Hallaertau Mittelfruh (10 min)

(Spice tea in 8 oz water - 2 minute boil)
3.0g Cracked Coriander seed
5.0g Fresh Orange Peel
1.0g Cracked Cinnamon stick
1.0g Fresh Thyme

T-58 (4 packs)

Protein rest 15 min 122F. Mash at 156F 70 min.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

I brewed this up last night, and went pretty damned good.

Hit 75% efficiency, which I am happy with for a 17lb grain bill with batch sparging.

As for the spices; I measured them at work using a high precision scale so I know they are +/-0.005 grams. The blend of all the spices together smells AMAZING. It all blends together beautifully, and no single spice seemed to be dominant. 1g of thyme looks like a lot, but it is not, and as my wife reminded me there was a savory aspect to Pannepot. She has a great nose and is all about loose leaf teas, and she was really excited about it. Even if the spices end up being a bit heavy (no idea yet), it is a good thing.

The hydrometer sample for brew at this time usually just tastes grainy and sweet, not all that appealing (why then do I taste it? Force of habit probably). This did as well, but had some pleasant notes already from the candi syrup and the spices.

And for SUU's CandiSyrup.com's materials; seemed that just straight the d-90 has similar taste to the standard D2 Syrup you get at the LHBS. The D-180 had a similar flavor, but seemed to be a different type of sweet. Again, this is before it is brewed and in concentrated form, probably should have made a tea of it to really get a feel.

Beer Kid (as my wife calls it) is happily bubbling away at me when I woke up this morning.

My temperature control is going to be just blankets wrapped around the carboy unless I seem to be loosing the temperature ramp battle. Hopefully I can just let this guy ride, as doing temp control for me (for hot) is only doable with putting the carboy in my cooler mash tun with warm water, which is not good with a back that decided recently to have 2 re-herniated disks.

I will probably obsessively be updating on here regarding what the brew is doing in reference to Temp and SG.

So excited! Really looking forward to getting this finished up and sampled. Thanks again to Saq for the inspiration, Since_Uuz_Up for the syrup and being my recipe-buddy, my wife as my assistant brewer, the other fellows brewing this along-side us all with help on recipes and providing/receiving feedback, and last but definitely not least The Mad Fermentationist (Old Sock) for the original recipe, inspiration and source of insight and knowledge.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Well, 20hrs later and the brew is from 66F up to 79F. Unwrapped the blankets around it, hopefully it won't try to heat up any more. If it does, I will just let it do its things.

SUU, you get up to brewing this last Friday?

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Well, 20hrs later and the brew is from 66F up to 79F. Unwrapped the blankets around it, hopefully it won't try to heat up any more. If it does, I will just let it do its things.

SUU, you get up to brewing this last Friday?

Sadly we didn't. There was just too much going on to get to the fun stuff. We're shooting for next weekend...maybe Saturday It sounds like you're off to a great start. How many packs of T-58 did you pitch?

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Sadly we didn't. There was just too much going on to get to the fun stuff. We're shooting for net weekend...maybe Saturday It sounds like you're off to a great start. How many packs of T-58 did you pitch?

2 packs of 11.5g, re-hydrated.

The brew got up to about 81 last night, is back down to 79/78 this morning. That is according to a thermresistor taped to the side, so not terribly accurate (probably a little low), but a good guide. I am just letting it do its thing. The blow off is driving my wife slowly insane, it can be heard everywhere in the apartment.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Current Report:

00hr = 65F-ish; SG = 1.100
24hr = 81F-ish
48hr = 74F-ish; SG = 1.035

Been unwrapping bucket at the 80's, then wrapped back up. Shook the bucket around. Took an SG reading, and replaced the blow off with a standard air lock. I am at 1 bubble every 3 seconds. I figure that at that rate I should be able to easily get to the 10.030-1.025 FG range.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Current Report:

00hr = 65F-ish; SG = 1.100
24hr = 81F-ish
48hr = 74F-ish; SG = 1.035

Been unwrapping bucket at the 80's, then wrapped back up. Shook the bucket around. Took an SG reading, and replaced the blow off with a standard air lock. I am at 1 bubble every 3 seconds. I figure that at that rate I should be able to easily get to the 10.030-1.025 FG range.

Tall, that looks like very rapid attenuation. Do you think it's going too fast? What was your O2 treatment?

 

[Tall_Yotie]

My O2 treatment is the good ol' fashioned "pour it from up on high" method. So a tall pour to aerate it. Every 12hr or so I have given the carboy a good shake to rouse up the yeast. At some point I should get more advanced about this as I find myself brewing big beers more often these days.

I don't think it is going to fast to be honest. This means I will get some good yeasty esters, and as I mashed at 156F the yeast is flying fast so will barrel through a lot of the sugars. The hydrometer sample tasted amazing, which is rare for such a short time after pitching.

The brew, wrapped up in 2 beach towels and sitting on a third, has dropped to 72.5F this morning. I don't have a heater for it, and can;t do the warm water bath as moving around the carboy with 2 re-herniated discs is not a good idea. The bubbling has significantly slowed down in the past 8 hours, but I am not going to check the SG until the 96hr mark. I tend to just fire and forget, but for anything that I am pushing hard or have a specific FG target I tend to track the SG trend.

Blow-off action was really strong 8hr after pitching (3 loud bubbles a second), 24hr at about 2 per second, and at 48hr was 1 per 3 seconds, so switched over to the air lock. at 56hr (this morning) I am at 1 bubble every 10 seconds. Unless I over-strained the yeast from a fast attenuation and it is giving up the ghost early, I think this is working out just fine.

Hopefully it will happily drop those 10 SG points in the next 72hr, and then I can rack and cold condition.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

So, another update!

90hr (a little under 4 days); SG is at 1.029. Temp is at 69F. I figure in a few more days it will stop a few more points down.

Taste of the hydro sample: Amaaaaazing! (sung in the flaming manner) The spices are incredibly subtle, barely detectable. I think some carbonation and aging will bring out the spices to an acceptable level. It needs those fruity aromatics which come with age, but there is some signs of it in the flavor.

In a few days, probably at the 7 day mark, I will transfer and cold condition. Then you don't have to deal with my updates until it is bottling time!

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I think we're off to a great start. We brewed a 10.75 gallon batch yesterday (Saturday) using Mad Ferm's tea approach to spice infusion. We used fresh English Thyme from a members organic garden, cinnamon stick, Penzy's coriander, and navel orange (all we can get here at this time of year). We mashed at 155F for 80 minutes and pitched at 68F. We pitched 6 - 11g packs of creamed T-58 after O2 blast for 100 seconds. It was alive after about 6 hours.

We can barely detect a slight orange and cinnamon back-palate but not too much of the Thyme. BTW, we did not split this batch between T-58 and Westmalle. We're shooting for a close-to-match clone. We'll update every 2 days or so.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Glad to hear all is off well! I have the feeling you are going to be the high-tech approach (blasting with O2, temp control) and mine is the low-tech (high pouring for aeration and beach towel wrapping), so will be neat to see the differences.

For the thyme, I can detect it, but not so much as flavor as adding an aspect of savory. We used navel orange as well.

Good call on the 155F mash. I believe after 6 days my brew has decided that its FG is 1.029, and not wanting to go much further. For 4 points I don't want to risk the negatives of heating up the brew. I transferred to a secondary, letting it sit for 48hr at the ambient 68F, then going to toss it in 50F for 6 weeks.

So for me, next time I would mash at 155F, wrap it up in blankets, and let it do its thing. If it wants to get up to 82F, fine, I wouldn't unwrap it to cool it down like I did this time. Nothing ill seemed to have come from the higher temp.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

We're 6 days in our Pannepot brew and it churned to krausen overflow the 2nd and 3rd day. We performed a sterile capture of the yeast and have just re-introduced it today. Gravity at 1.028 down from 1.102.

This Ale is really amazing. I'm told by my brewer not to get too excited yet but I've yet to taste a hydrometer sample this good. Now to invest in a 15 gallon White Oak Barrel or not...

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

After 8 days our Pannepot OFA Clone has reached its target of 1.025. We're racking this batch today at 60F for the next 10 weeks. It tastes better each time we sample it. Really looking forward to this.

 

[Tall_Yotie]

Nice on hitting the FG! What did you do for temperature profile during fermentation? Able to stick with the original schedule?

I hope mine doesn't turn out too sweet. I figured I could have dropped a few more points if I had been able to keep the temps up where I wanted it across the last days of fermentation.