Panel can't distinguish beer mashed at pH 6.39 from pH 5.17

[bob1852]

I do appreciate that he has an enthusiasm for beer and obviously puts a lot of time and effort into his website. That aspect is to be commended.

However, I do think he portrays his "experiments" in a quasi-scientific way that may lead some readers, especially those without a scientific background, to actually put stock in what he says. Most of his experiments suggest that many well established bad brewing practices don't have negative consequences. That does a tremendous disservice to the home brewing community.

For example?

 

[Yooper]

For example?

Wasn't one that he brought out in San Diego a lager fermented at 66 degrees vs 50 degrees? Or something like that. I didn't get a chance to try it, but I think the results showed that the experienced tasting panel noticed no differences.

And then later, I read that he did one lager yeast much warmer, I want to say 75 degrees.

 

[Yooper]

And then later, I read that he did one lager yeast much warmer, I want to say 75 degrees.

Oops, it was 50 vs 70 degrees. But, midway through, he said this:
With the cool ferment beer was sitting at 1.032 SG, slightly over 50% to my target FG, I moved it into the chamber holding the warm ferment batch, which had dropped to a steady 68˚F/20˚C once active fermentation was complete.

Not traditional, even for cool fermented lagers.

from his blog page: http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/08/fe...ager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/

 

[bob1852]

Oops, it was 50 vs 70 degrees. But, midway through, he said this:
With the cool ferment beer was sitting at 1.032 SG, slightly over 50% to my target FG, I moved it into the chamber holding the warm ferment batch, which had dropped to a steady 68˚F/20˚C once active fermentation was complete.

Not traditional, even for cool fermented lagers.

from his blog page: http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/08/fe...ager-yeast-saflager-3470-exbeeriment-results/

I didn't mention "traditional".

Sometimes traditions are done not because they make a distinguishable product, but just because it's tradition....

Remember, triangle tests aren't about which beer is "better", it's about if a statistically significant portion of the samplers can detect which sample is different. If they can't, maybe the "well established brewing practice" has only been done so out of tradition...

 

[schematix]

For example?

The whole concept of his website is trying to demonstrate that commonly held beliefs about brewing are (mostly) wrong. Most of the articles are an example. No need for me to enumerate them here.

 

[bob1852]

The whole concept of his website is trying to demonstrate that commonly held beliefs about brewing are (mostly) wrong. Most of the articles are an example. No need for me to enumerate them here.

So you think "commonly held beliefs" and "well established bad brewing practices" are the same thing?

 

[Yooper]

So you think "commonly held beliefs" and "well established bad brewing practices" are the same thing?

Sometimes; sometimes not.

Fermenting a lager at 70 degrees may be in the "well established bad brewing practices" for all I know.

I like that the dogma "if your fermentation temperature of a lager exceeds 55 degrees your beer will suck" is being challenged. But if you're going to prove that fermenting a lager at 70 is the same as fermenting it at 50, them perhaps raising the temperature to nearly 70 when the beer is only about 50% done may not be the best way to prove that.

A more traditional approach (doing the diacetyl rest at 75% of the way to Fg, for example) may make the doubters take it more seriously. That's all I"m saying.

 

[Frilock]

The one thing that seems the most consistent on that site is that usually people can't tell the difference.

*shower thought*

Perhaps the biggest home brewing myth of all is that there is such a thing as an 'Experienced Tasting Panel'.

 

[rhys333]

My own anecdotal evidence is this:

Many years ago I made a kolsch. It was actually a great (proven) recipe, and well made with fermentation temperatures controlled and lagering at the end.

However, I used my tap water.

The beer had a harsh "bite" to it that was noticeable at the first sip. After a few sips, it was ok, but it wasn't right.

In retrospect, and using Bru'nwater to guestimate the likely mash pH, the mash pH is estimated at 6.19. I batch sparged, with no acidification. My tap water sulfate is 45 ppm and the chloride is 14 ppm. My HCO3 is 252

The beer wasn't as awful as you'd expect- but it wasn't the beautiful smooth and crisp and delightful kolsch I was hoping for.

A few years later, I made the same exact beer with RO water and a smidgen of CaCl2. Fantastic, wonderful, and a near world-class beer.

Probably a bunch of hops would have covered the astrigency, as I made a ton of IPAs back then and never noticed that "flavor" before.

It's anecdotal evidence for sure, but I can definitely say that in that case, the mash pH was a huge factor.

Yooper, do you recall your calcium and chloride levels on that second kolsch? I ask because I've been using both CaCl2 and gypsum on mine, but I'm thinking of using just CaCl2 on my next one.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Can anyone point to a Brulosophy experiment that was actually well executed and had meaningful results?

I'm pretty fond of the trub vs no trub exbeeriment.

I'll grant that the experiments aren't that meaningful. But most of us don't have the time or money to brew batches that have the potential to be poor or even undrinkable. I'm sure pro brewers do a ton of side-by-side tests to perfect a recipe. That's just out of our reach. The exbeeriments give us some hint at the truth which otherwise would remain unknown to us.

 

[techbrau]

Forgive my lack of artistic talent.

This drawing sums up my own personal experience with brewing. I think anybody who has spent enough time with LoDO can probably relate.

 

[Yooper]

Yooper, do you recall your calcium and chloride levels on that second kolsch? I ask because I've been using both CaCl2 and gypsum on mine, but I'm thinking of using just CaCl2 on my next one.

I didn't write it down (can you believe that!!!!) but my gut says only 5-7 grams CaCl2, and nothing else for a 5 gallon batch, and a mash pH of 5.4.

 

[Murphys_Law]

I've said this on the other thread, but my real take away from these exbeeriments is that beer is pretty forgiving.

 

[schematix]

I'm pretty fond of the trub vs no trub exbeeriment.

Just curious what about this experiment do you have a fondness for?

I'll grant that the experiments aren't that meaningful.

The exbeeriments give us some hint at the truth which otherwise would remain unknown to us.

And this is exactly why I think his quasi scientific presentation goes to the point of being a disservice.

You say his experiments are not meaningful, while also claiming they have some truth. This is a pure contradiction. You can't have it both ways.

 

[schematix]

Forgive my lack of artistic talent.

This drawing sums up my own personal experience with brewing. I think anybody who has spent enough time with LoDO can probably relate.

Wow that's deep. I've never seen a concept depicted so elegantly.

 

[bob1852]

And this is exactly why I think his quasi scientific presentation goes to the point of being a disservice.

I'm not sure what's "quasi" about the basic scientific method.

 

[Barley_Bob]

You say his experiments are not meaningful, while also claiming they have some truth. This is a pure contradiction. You can't have it both ways.

You're conflating terms. Just because it's not a "meaningful" experiment doesn't mean it has no value or conveys no information. He also tests for statistical significance, which is good, but a significant result, as you note, isn't necessarily meaningful.

The results have at least some marginal value that help us - as amateurs - navigate the hobby. And unless you're a tenured faculty statistician running multiple control and experiment groups within this specific discipline, he's doing a hell of a lot more to help others than you are.

 

[RevKev]

Hah ^ well the lack of experimental design and control of variables is quasiscientific

 

[schematix]

he's doing a hell of a lot more to help others than you are.

He's leading you into the weeds and you're following him there. Conclusions (or mostly no conclusions) drawn on shoddy experiments doesn't benefit anyone.

I do believe he is well intentioned and he genuinely wants to help people. I applaud him for that. The quality and format of his work is misleading to many who don't recognize that its actually about as valuable as watching reality TV. But that's what his audience wants and that's what he gives them.

 

[z-bob]

I wish people were this skeptical about what passes for "climate science" these days.

 

[Trail]

I wish people were this skeptical about what passes for "climate science" these days.

Really, buddy? That's where you're going with this?

Let's keep it focused on beer, please. Before some of us get fightey.

 

[RevKev]

I have many things to say that also.. I will hold back as a friend of many environmental chemists and Ph.D students alike doing research in the field. Meep

 

[Bilsch]

I wish people were this skeptical about what passes for "climate science" these days.

If your saying that Brulosophy is like, for instance the website realclimatescience.com, then I totally agree with your point.

 

[rhys333]

I didn't write it down (can you believe that!!!!) but my gut says only 5-7 grams CaCl2, and nothing else for a 5 gallon batch, and a mash pH of 5.4.

Awesome, thanks.

 

[myelo]

Can anyone point to a Brulosophy experiment that was actually well executed and had meaningful results?

All the ones that confirmed my preconceived notions of how I brew beer.

The ones that conflict with that are poorly designed with major flaws in execution and inappropriate statistical analysis.

 

[Horseflesh]

I'm about 55 miles away from that artesian spring water now (110 mile round trip). Perhaps some day I'll have to take a road trip and bag 10 gallons of it in order to try to recreate my best ever Bohemian Pilsner. But then again, traveling 110 miles for 10 gallons of water seems mighty painful.

Man, you can't let that go! Maybe a forum member lives near the spring? If you could get a water sample you could have it analyzed. A 110 mile trip isn't too bad though, I've driven farther for lunch.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Man, you can't let that go! Maybe a forum member lives near the spring? If you could get a water sample you could have it analyzed. A 110 mile trip isn't too bad though, I've driven farther for lunch.

I emailed them and asked if they could provide me with a water analysis, and this was their reply:

Ca 38 ppm
Mg 5.8 ppm
Cl None Detected
SO4 14 ppm
Na 18 ppm
Alkalinity (as CaCO3) 52 ppm
pH 6.8

I don't quite know if these figures should be taken to be reliable or not, since their cation/anion balance appears to be way off. What I suspect (from perusing their website) is that they are trying to emphasize that their spring water has no chlorine, and they have confused chlorine and chloride, thus reporting Cl as "not detected". If chloride is 65 ppm for this water the cation/anion balance is excellent, so (seeing as where in the real world any waters cations and anions must balance) my best speculative/educated guess is that their Cl is in the ballpark of 65 ppm. Pretty good water overall.

For 5 gallons you can come respectfully close to duplicating this water by adding to distilled the following:
2.6 grams CaCl2.2H2O
0.8 grams MgSO4
1.6 grams Baking Soda

But since there is no need for alkalinity or sodium for Pilsner brewing, I'm not recommending this. A much better recommendation for Pilsner is to leave out the baking soda. Quite nice Pilsner water is the result.