Panel build (Auber based)

[shoengine]

Do you have an SSR in there?

Yup, it is attached to the heat sink.

Definitely a bear getting the threads tapped for that. I drilled six holes for the heat sink and managed to break the first 8-32 tap off in the fifth hole, where it will continue to reside forever. Fortunately I had another, and tapping the threads for the SSR went more smoothly.

 

[shoengine]

My experience with the DSPR-320 has been mixed, with normal gravity brews it does fine, but almost every big brew 1.10 and higher I end up scorching the wort and ruining my heating element (not really ruined but it is covered in baked on black char). I bought a SYL-2352 a while ago as that is what i used on my three vessel system. I install it last week, it allows you to set not only temp but duty cycle, whereas the DSRP-320 only allows you to set temp (mash mode) or duty cycle (boil mode) but not both at the same time.

I do full volume mashing which makes high gravity beers fairly difficult (read: low efficiency) unless I dial down to less than 5 gallons of wort into the fermentor.

When you scorched your wort was it less than full volume? I set my system up for BIAB with a false bottom and have an instrument tee with the temp sensor picking up from the bottom of the vessel and I have to constantly recirculate to make sure that the temperature that is read is representative of the liquid in the vessel.

My current problem is that for recirculation all I have right now is a tangential inlet and need to find a solution to recirculate near the top of the mash. Gonna have to spend some time on Bobby's site for a bit I think.

This is what I'm using right now. I guess I could just hack it down a bit and then get something else for whirlpool.

 

[doug293cz]

My experience with the DSPR-320 has been mixed, with normal gravity brews it does fine, but almost every big brew 1.10 and higher I end up scorching the wort and ruining my heating element (not really ruined but it is covered in baked on black char). I bought a SYL-2352 a while ago as that is what i used on my three vessel system. I install it last week, it allows you to set not only temp but duty cycle, whereas the DSRP-320 only allows you to set temp (mash mode) or duty cycle (boil mode) but not both at the same time.

Actually, the DSPR-320 does allow you to limit the duty cycle (max power output allowed really) in mash mode. The parameter is mOUT, and can be set anywhere between 0 and 100%. It only applies while heating between mash steps, but in practice if mOUT is set high enough to heat to a higher temperature, the output required to maintain a fixed temp will always be less than mOUT (unless you do something crazy like add cold water during a temp hold step.)

The SYL-2352 has a minimum cycle time of 2 seconds, which for the PWM used means that at 50% power output the element will be on for 1 full second at full power, and then off for another second during each cycle. The DSPR series of controllers do not use PWM for power control but rather a "pulse count modulation" method where the minimum on time for the element is 0.0167 seconds. So, when set at 50% power, the element is at full power for 16.7 msec, and off for 16.7 msec. This means that the temperature of the element surface will fluctuate more, and the max element temp will be higher, when controlled by the SYL than when controlled by the DSPR.

Brew on

 

[IDMaynard]

I do full volume mashing which makes high gravity beers fairly difficult (read: low efficiency) unless I dial down to less than 5 gallons of wort into the fermentor.

When you scorched your wort was it less than full volume? I set my system up for BIAB with a false bottom and have an instrument tee with the temp sensor picking up from the bottom of the vessel and I have to constantly recirculate to make sure that the temperature that is read is representative of the liquid in the vessel.

My current problem is that for recirculation all I have right now is a tangential inlet and need to find a solution to recirculate near the top of the mash. Gonna have to spend some time on Bobby's site for a bit I think.

This is what I'm using right now. I guess I could just hack it down a bit and then get something else for whirlpool.

View attachment 878655

I have only scorched wort during boil with fairly high starting gravities (1.07 and above). As I mentioned I believe it is due to the DSPR's inability to set a duty cycle and temp. You can set temp in mash mash mode or duty cycle in boil mode but not both. So in mash mode if I set my temp to 207 it is going go 100% until it hits 207, then shut off and repeat each time it goes below 207. In boil mode it will try to reach 212 at whatever duty cycle you set. If you are not at sea level (or boil pure water) then it basically applies full power trying to reach 212 (I have not found a setting to adjust the boil temp below 212 or whatever Auber says boil temp is). This is my experience with the DSPR unit, whereas the SYL-2352 is fully configurable and I have never scorched a heating element with that controller (I have blown them up by running them dry but that is a story for another time )

 

[Bobby_M]

I have only scorched wort during boil with fairly high starting gravities (1.07 and above). As I mentioned I believe it is due to the DSPR's inability to set a duty cycle and temp. You can set temp in mash mash mode or duty cycle in boil mode but not both. So in mash mode if I set my temp to 207 it is going go 100% until it hits 207, then shut off and repeat each time it goes below 207. In boil mode it will try to reach 212 at whatever duty cycle you set. If you are not at sea level (or boil pure water) then it basically applies full power trying to reach 212 (I have not found a setting to adjust the boil temp below 212 or whatever Auber says boil temp is). This is my experience with the DSPR unit, whereas the SYL-2352 is fully configurable and I have never scorched a heating element with that controller (I have blown them up by running them dry but that is a story for another time )

As Doug mentioned, the 320 has the mOUT parameter which is the highest duty cycle you want to allow when heating in mash mode (so it's untrue that it doesn't allow both at the same time). If you like the SYL, that's great but I don't want anyone to read that the 320 can't do it.

There is the caveat that you can't set a different mOUT per mash step on the schedule as it's a universal setting for the whole mash but if you want to limite your element's power to say 50% for all mash heating, that will do it fine.

 

[IDMaynard]

As Doug mentioned, the 320 has the mOUT parameter which is the highest duty cycle you want to allow when heating in mash mode (so it's untrue that it doesn't allow both at the same time). If you like the SYL, that's great but I don't want anyone to read that the 320 can't do it.

There is the caveat that you can't set a different mOUT per mash step on the schedule as it's a universal setting for the whole mash but if you want to limite your element's power to say 50% for all mash heating, that will do it fine.

Bobby, how do I set the duty cycle then? I typically use the mash profile for boiling since it allows me to set a specific temp whereas in boil mode I could never find somewhere to set the temp, it just seemed to run the controller up to some invisible preset temperature. Any additional info would be great.

 

[doug293cz]

how do I set the duty cycle then?

"mOUT" on the DSPR320 works like "OUTH" on the SYL-2352. The procedure for setting is different for the two controllers because the parameter setting menus and buttons/knobs used are different, and are described in the manual.

I typically use the mash profile for boiling since it allows me to set a specific temp whereas in boil mode I could never find somewhere to set the temp, it just seemed to run the controller up to some invisible preset temperature.

You don't get to set a boil temperature. The boiling temperature is determined solely by the liquid composition and the local atmospheric pressure, and there is nothing you can do to change that with a controller setting. Trying to force a boil temperature will give you control problems. If you set a temp above the inherent boiling temp the, controller will max out the power (subject to any power limit set in the controller) and if you set a temp below the inherent boiling temp, you will only get a simmer below boiling. The power setting during the boil will determine the boil vigor and thus the boil-off rate.

Brew on

 

[Bobby_M]

Bobby, how do I set the duty cycle then? I typically use the mash profile for boiling since it allows me to set a specific temp whereas in boil mode I could never find somewhere to set the temp, it just seemed to run the controller up to some invisible preset temperature. Any additional info would be great.

I don't understand the question exactly or maybe we're using different terminology. When you're mashing, you set a target temperature. It will generally ramp up the power to 100% if the temp delta between the current temp (PV) is far away from set temp (SV) to get there faster and then reduce the duty cycle as it approaches the target so as not to overshoot. IF you prefer that it doesn't run 100% output during those large delta ramp ups, you program the mOUT parameter to some percent lower than 100% (it means MAXIMUM OUTPUT). It will heat slower obviously, but it sounds like you want it to heat slower to keep the surface of the element from getting too hot. Maybe the element is too power dense.

Boil mode, as indicated by a "P" followed by a 0-100 power numeric doesn't care about temperature. It it just pulses the output at a given duty cycle like turning the knob on a gas stove. That's how you typically control boil, not by a temperature.

In summary, in mash mode you set a target temp and if you want the element to "make less average power" you knee cap it with the mOUT paramenter.

In boil mode, you set the power and the temperature rises until you reach your elevation's boil temperature.

Maybe the best way to approach this is to list out you desired brew day process and what you want the system to do to achieve it (without using controller/PID terms)

 

[IDMaynard]

I don't understand the question exactly or maybe we're using different terminology. When you're mashing, you set a target temperature. It will generally ramp up the power to 100% if the temp delta between the current temp (PV) is far away from set temp (SV) to get there faster and then reduce the duty cycle as it approaches the target so as not to overshoot. IF you prefer that it doesn't run 100% output during those large delta ramp ups, you program the mOUT parameter to some percent lower than 100% (it means MAXIMUM OUTPUT). It will heat slower obviously, but it sounds like you want it to heat slower to keep the surface of the element from getting too hot. Maybe the element is too power dense.

Boil mode, as indicated by a "P" followed by a 0-100 power numeric doesn't care about temperature. It it just pulses the output at a given duty cycle like turning the knob on a gas stove. That's how you typically control boil, not by a temperature.

In summary, in mash mode you set a target temp and if you want the element to "make less average power" you knee cap it with the mOUT paramenter.

In boil mode, you set the power and the temperature rises until you reach your elevation's boil temperature.

Maybe the best way to approach this is to list out you desired brew day process and what you want the system to do to achieve it (without using controller/PID terms)

 

[IDMaynard]

Bobby, I appreciate your feedback. I guess I missed that the mOUT can use a duty cycle.
My comment about the bOUT is still correct I believe. The DSPR does not allow you to set a boil temp I assume it is hard coded in @ 212, which for my area is not correct so when I run the boil program, I get full power all the time.

You might be correct on my heating element; I have been using a 6500W which could be the root cause of my problem. I swapped out my DSPR to an AYS type as I had great success with that one when I was running a 3-vessel system.

 

[Bobby_M]

Bobby, I appreciate your feedback. I guess I missed that the mOUT can use a duty cycle.
My comment about the bOUT is still correct I believe. The DSPR does not allow you to set a boil temp I assume it is hard coded in @ 212, which for my area is not correct so when I run the boil program, I get full power all the time.

You might be correct on my heating element; I have been using a 6500W which could be the root cause of my problem. I swapped out my DSPR to an AYS type as I had great success with that one when I was running a 3-vessel system.

the way that PID based controllers modulate output is by pulsing the current flow (what you are calling duty cycle). If mOUT is set to 50%, it effectively turns your 6500 watt element into a 3750watt element (in MASH/TEMP mode) no matter how big the temperature delta is between the set point and current temperature.

You keep mentioning "setting a boil temperature" but that phrase doesn't make any sense. There is no such concept of setting a boil temperature and Doug explained that very clearly. Liquid boils at whatever temperature it boils at given your elevation above sea level and the ambient air pressure. It's not coded to stop heating at 212, that's just how hot the liquid can get because of physics. No controller made by any company would have a concept of setting a boil temperature.

After thinking about it a little more, If what you're trying to say is that the DSPR was not obeying the P-value in boiling mode, the issue you were having was due to leaving the bAST at some value other than zero.

For example, if you have bAST temp set to 212 then it will put out FULL POWER until that bAST temperature is achieved. bAST is a unique feature to Auber DSPR controllers so very few people understand it and it makes the controller frustrating. If you turn bAST to zero, the boil mode reacts intuitively, such as pulsing the boil at 50% when you set the boil control to P050.

It makes sense that the SYL module was doing more of what you expected in that case because it doesn't use the concept of boil acceleration (bAST)... Seriously though, if you switch back to the DSPR and learn how to use it, it's vastly superior to the SYL modules.

 

[IDMaynard]

the way that PID based controllers modulate output is by pulsing the current flow (what you are calling duty cycle). If mOUT is set to 50%, it effectively turns your 6500 watt element into a 3750watt element (in MASH/TEMP mode) no matter how big the temperature delta is between the set point and current temperature.

You keep mentioning "setting a boil temperature" but that phrase doesn't make any sense. There is no such concept of setting a boil temperature and Doug explained that very clearly. Liquid boils at whatever temperature it boils at given your elevation above sea level and the ambient air pressure. It's not coded to stop heating at 212, that's just how hot the liquid can get because of physics. No controller made by any company would have a concept of setting a boil temperature.

After thinking about it a little more, If what you're trying to say is that the DSPR was not obeying the P-value in boiling mode, the issue you were having was due to leaving the bAST at some value other than zero.

For example, if you have bAST temp set to 212 then it will put out FULL POWER until that bAST temperature is achieved. bAST is a unique feature to Auber DSPR controllers so very few people understand it and it makes the controller frustrating. If you turn bAST to zero, the boil mode reacts intuitively, such as pulsing the boil at 50% when you set the boil control to P050.

It makes sense that the SYL module was doing more of what you expected in that case because it doesn't use the concept of boil acceleration (bAST)... Seriously though, if you switch back to the DSPR and learn how to use it, it's vastly superior to the SYL modules.

Appreciate the info. I will look at the bAST value that I am using.

 

[shoengine]

Love the primers here for the Auber controllers. This would have taken me a lot of trial and error to figure out without the knowledge being shared.

In regards to my build, I am putting the final touches and am not entirely sure what to do about the return.

First, a photo:

Since the temperature sensor is external and fed through the pickup tube I have to constantly recirculate to keep the temp data up to date. I plan on returning it through the high-mounted spin cycle. My issue is that it dips all the way down to the false bottom, so I'm going to have to cut it down. To replace the whirlpool function I am going to return the wort through the pickup tube at 4:30.

As much as I don't want to cut down the spin cycle, I can't really think of another good return method that doesn't end up stratifying the mash. I'm running a water test right now to make sure the program works.

What isn't pictured is my three-way valve that will switch between recirculation and whirlpool. I'll need to get another set of hose barb to TC connectors as I didn't plan for that initially and so I just included a butterfly valve so I can switch it for the test without losing a bunch of water.

 

[shoengine]

Additionally, is there anyway to prevent my overhead LED lights from flashing while the element is in a low current draw?

 

[day_trippr]

Given homogenizing the mash temperature is generally a goal I think you're on the right track on shortening the Spin Cycle tubing to provide the vertical spread to avoid dead zones.

But does BIAB care about disturbing the mash "bed" with the return flow? That's an important concern for a conventional recirculating mash tun which in turn dictates the return height - typically a couple of inches above the mash bed so there's a corresponding amount of wort above the grains. On my MLT I use a Blichmann autosparge valve with 3/8" silicone tubing through an SS float ball and set the depth above the mash bed to a couple of inches. That keeps from scouring the mash bed during recirculation. If that's important for BIAB you'd want the return comfortably above the mash bed as well...

Cheers!

 

[IDMaynard]

Does the valve on the right side have a 90 degree fitting on it? If that is the case then why not use that for "spin cycle" and remove the arm on the upper one completely? Then you could attach a Blichmann device such as what day_tripper suggests, I use a SS fire ring that I found on Amazon that works great for flow distribution, I added a hose barb to the top and feed the wort through it with it sitting on top of the grain bed.

 

[Brewer dad]

How have your water tests gone? I’d be curious to see how close the reading at your probe is to the temp inside the kettle, especially at boil.

Looks like you’re moving along nicely! I’m also in the process of doing a build and hoping to pickup the majority of the remaining hardware next week.

 

[Broken Crow]

Love the primers here for the Auber controllers. This would have taken me a lot of trial and error to figure out without the knowledge being shared.

In regards to my build, I am putting the final touches and am not entirely sure what to do about the return.

First, a photo:

View attachment 879748

Since the temperature sensor is external and fed through the pickup tube I have to constantly recirculate to keep the temp data up to date. I plan on returning it through the high-mounted spin cycle. My issue is that it dips all the way down to the false bottom, so I'm going to have to cut it down. To replace the whirlpool function I am going to return the wort through the pickup tube at 4:30.

As much as I don't want to cut down the spin cycle, I can't really think of another good return method that doesn't end up stratifying the mash. I'm running a water test right now to make sure the program works.

View attachment 879753

What isn't pictured is my three-way valve that will switch between recirculation and whirlpool. I'll need to get another set of hose barb to TC connectors as I didn't plan for that initially and so I just included a butterfly valve so I can switch it for the test without losing a bunch of water.

As awesome as that Spincycle may be; Lose it and cut out a larger hole for a 1.5"TC port (https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc15wlf.htm) that you could attach a steam-condenser to and maybe the upper half of your recirc (https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc15f12nptdouble.htm).... Split your recirculation between the top and the other port below the FB.
Just what I'd do.

EDIT: Sorry! Brain not working this morning; just posted that and remembered the port will be covered with a brew bag, but hey: Steam condenser for later!, and you should split your recirc anyway.
Dang it! Another EDIT: I should have included Bobby's 'Dang it' as an option:
https://www.brewhardware.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=dang+it&Submit=

 

[shoengine]

As awesome as that Spincycle may be; Lose it and cut out a larger hole for a 1.5"TC port (https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc15wlf.htm) that you could attach a steam-condenser to and maybe the upper half of your recirc (https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/tc15f12nptdouble.htm).... Split your recirculation between the top and the other port below the FB.
Just what I'd do.

EDIT: Sorry! Brain not working this morning; just posted that and remembered the port will be covered with a brew bag, but hey: Steam condenser for later!, and you should split your recirc anyway.
Dang it! Another EDIT: I should have included Bobby's 'Dang it' as an option:
https://www.brewhardware.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=dang+it&Submit=

I had to do some reading on split recirculation. Absent any experience with it myself, do you think that there is a benefit when doing full volume mashes in a bag? Most of what I saw were folks with AIO equipped with malt pipes.

 

[Broken Crow]

Yes, but I'm brain-dead so here's the HBT God of Hardware and his thread that gifted us with this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/single-vessel-brewing-system-temperature-stability.697602/

 

[James_AZ]

Appreciate the info. I will look at the bAST value that I am using.

I have the Auber DSPR controllers and use them for both RIMS Mash and Boil. I do 15 Gallon Batches
I drive a 5500W element for my RIMS. I have yet to scorch the element/wort. I usually use 100% for mOUT. If 100% starts boiling the wort in the RIMS tube I drop it down to 75%.

For the Boil I drive two 5500W elements. There are three bSET settings, bOUT which i set to 100% and bAST which I set to 206F, and finally bTSP (timer start) which I set to 207F.

My boil program is set to 22%. So with these settings my controller drives both elements at 100%(bOUT) until my wort reaches 206F (bAST) then the controller drives the elements at 22%. Once the wort reaches 207F(temp at which a rolling boil is achieved bTSP) the boil timer starts.

I love this controller.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm not a fan of trying to do the mash recirculation through the sidewall when doing BIAB because it requires you to drape the bag under something and it never neatly folds over the lip of the kettle nicely. I think going through the lid is the way.

 

[Bobby_M]

I have the Auber DSPR controllers and use them for both RIMS Mash and Boil. I do 15 Gallon Batches
I drive a 5500W element for my RIMS. I have yet to scorch the element/wort. I usually use 100% for mOUT. If 100% starts boiling the wort in the RIMS tube I drop it down to 75%.

For the Boil I drive two 5500W elements. There are three bSET settings, bOUT which i set to 100% and bAST which I set to 206F, and finally bTSP (timer start) which I set to 207F.

My boil program is set to 22%. So with these settings my controller drives both elements at 100%(bOUT) until my wort reaches 206F (bAST) then the controller drives the elements at 22%. Once the wort reaches 207F(temp at which a rolling boil is achieved bTSP) the boil timer starts.

I love this controller.

I assume you're using the the DSPR120. If that's the case, I agree that the bAST and bTSP functions are critical features that no other controller has.
I don't like using those functions on the DSPR320 as there are more intuitive ways to achieve the same thing.

 

[shoengine]

I'm not a fan of trying to do the mash recirculation through the sidewall when doing BIAB because it requires you to drape the bag under something and it never neatly folds over the lip of the kettle nicely. I think going through the lid is the way.

I was just going to put the bag on in the normal fashion. The assumption is that the liquid would diffuse back through the bag, but that could be a bad assumption on my part.

 

[shoengine]

First report from the tests... my temp sender from Auber never hit 212.

I was stuck at 203 on the panel until I increased the flow full and bumped the power to 65, but 208 is the highest the panel reads while it is clearly boiling.

 

[doug293cz]

First report from the tests... my temp sender from Auber never hit 212.

View attachment 879895
View attachment 879896

I was stuck at 203 on the panel until I increased the flow full and bumped the power to 65, but 208 is the highest the panel reads while it is clearly boiling.

The temp drop in the plumbing, if your temp probe is not in the BK, is real. And that's why temp probe location is critical.

Also, that middle dial thermometer needs to be calibrated.

Brew on :mug;

 

[Broken Crow]

Forgive me, I'm gonna be blunt: With BIAB, ports above the FB are just plain wrong and unworkable. I'll reiterate my link above to Bobby's 'Dang it!' hole-plugs: https://www.brewhardware.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=dang+it&Submit=
I suspect you made the same assumption I did about temps in the plumbing while recirculating; My 'logic' suggested that the plumbing would come up to temp as it ran... I've always had an inline thermometer on the output of my pump (calibrated alongside the one in my keggle body) and it's always read lower than the temp in the kettle. You need to poke at least 2 new holes: One for a temp probe, and another for the recirc port, both below the false bottom.

 

[shoengine]

Also, that middle dial thermometer needs to be calibrated.

I think I'm just going to toss the middle one. I got those from a retired brewer and rarely use them (except for situations like this). Not really worth trying to fix it. Plus its resolution isn't terribly useful in brewing.

I suspect you made the same assumption I did about temps in the plumbing while recirculating; My 'logic' suggested that the plumbing would come up to temp as it ran... I've always had an inline thermometer on the output of my pump (calibrated alongside the one in my keggle body) and it's always read lower than the temp in the kettle. You need to poke at least 2 new holes: One for a temp probe, and another for the recirc port, both below the false bottom.

And it certainly does go up to some temperature, as it becomes much to hot to touch without PPE. Before I go adding even more holes to my kettle, I need to determine the temperature gradient to see how far off it is at mashing temps (I don't care if the boil temp is off). At 212 it is off by 4 degrees, so reasonably it should be off by less than that at 150. If it is just a degree or two I can easily manage that.

For the boil I am using Bobby's suggestion to set the boil power in a mash program instead of using temperature. It appears from my tests that 65% gets a nice boil irrespective of what the sender says.

 

[Broken Crow]

I need to determine the temperature gradient to see how far off it is at mashing temps

The difference will be less predictable with a mash than with water tests and unlikely the same....owing to the slower mash recirc rate the drop may be greater than you are currently experiencing.... you could end up scorching your bag just trying to calculate the offset.
Though it may be disenheartening right now, poking another hole for a temp probe really isn't that big a deal..give it some time to let the immediate benefits from doing so sink in.

 

[shoengine]

First two brew sessions went fairly well. The first one I did I had a probe in the bag, and outside of the bag, as well as the RTD probe in the instrument tee.

I ended up recirculating through the lid. I might try the tangential some time and compare it to lid and see if there is much difference in conversion.

Mash temps were close. I haven't calibrated any of the probes, so just comparing the numbers to each other.

Mash out temps were a little closer.

I'm not sure if there was any scorching. The Kolsch was supposed to be 5.5 SRM (a little high, I know), and with my untrained eye it almost looks like a seven. There was a light colored film on the element after the boil, but nothing dark.

 

[shoengine]

This is the kolsch. Doesn't look quite as dark, but I forgot what the requirements are when checking the color. No aroma of anything burnt though

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

The Kolsch was supposed to be 5.5 SRM (a little high, I know), and with my untrained eye it almost looks like a seven.

It may have nothing to do with your system. The higher the pH in the boil, the darker the beer at the end of the boil. If the pH is high enough, it can have an impact on the color of the finished beer.