Oxygenation Poll

[Beezer94]

For me it is not cost.

Admittedly I have not seen an accident with oxygen tanks but I also know that oxygen is extremely flammable and can be explosive.

Maybe I'm being overly cautious about oxygen. But it is partially the risk involved that is deterring me.

I also had some reservations with the safety of the oyxgen tanks, but I found out that the tanks we are using are only 2oz of O2 at a low pressure. These things are not your high pressure industrial tanks of doom. I still would not store it in my oven or on my stove, but anywhere away from heat should be fine.

They are tanks just like the little camp stove propane tanks, and both just sit by the dozen on store shelves. If they were dangerous just sitting there, no retailer would carry them inside.

 

[SickTransitMundus]

It strikes me as silly that anybody would take a thousands-of-years-old craft and say that you MUST use clinical grade oxygen supplimentation or you're missing out.

Shall we then ignore the discovery and optimization of brewing yeast, or the science behind saccharification, or any other brewing-related component of the Scientific Revolution? None of these are ESSENTIAL for making beer. You can either use technology to rationally improve your process, or you can mix up some sugar-water and let it sit in a corner while you do a rain dance or pray to Ninkappy or whomever.

Admittedly I have not seen an accident with oxygen tanks but I also know that oxygen is extremely flammable and can be explosive.

Don't use it indoors, and make sure your burner is turned off. It's perfectly safe otherwise.

I sampled my third bottle from my first oxygenated batch last night, and at 2-1/2 weeks, it is literally head and shoulders above anything else I have ever made. I was happy with my beer before, but I am thrilled with it now. It is not my first time with this recipe either, and since I dial in fermentation temperatures, and stick with one house yeast, I really eliminate many possible variables batch to batch. The only process change I made was the addition of oxygen. A simple 60 second burst through a diffusion stone right before I pitched.

I am an oxygen evangelist. Since adopting O2 I have also eliminated "house flavors" and have not had a single stuck fermentation out of over 20 batches. Proper oxygenation - along with starters, sanitation, and temperature control - is critical to a healthy fermentation. Without a healthy fermentation you won't get high-quality beer. Can you get a healthy ferment by shaking? Sure. But O2 will help ensure you get it consistently. Ultimately it's a question of whether you want your beer to be merely drinkable (or not) or if you want to really knock it out of the park.

 

[SickTransitMundus]

To my mind, cleaning a porous stone must be a challenge...

Boil it in water for ~10 minutes, then dunk it in sanitizer until it's ready for use.

 

[BendBrewer]

If anyone still has doubts about using O2 stones, go to your local brewery and ask how they do it.

 

[ayoungrad]

I have no outdoor options. Would you then suggest an aquarium pump set-up?

In re: the science of oxygen and yeast. Apparently oxygen inhibits fermentation (Pasteur effect). So in the presence of oxygen the yeast are aerobes. And I believe this is when they reproduce. So lag time is probably a function of the amount of oxygen and the number of yeast cells. Once there are enough healthy yeast cells AND no more inhibitory oxygen, fermentation will start.

But in the absence of oxygen would you end up with the correct number of cells, some of which are unhealthy, or would you get too few cells trying to do too much work. Based on my knowledge, I would think it's the later.

I guess it doesn't matter. I just think its interesting.

 

[Reelale]

Great discussion. I've got my process down so that post-boil, the wort never sees "open air". I allow the wort to splash back into the kettle during CFC recirculation and have hoped that was good enough. Now I certainly could slip a stone down into the airlock hole to do an O2 charge before sealing the fermenter up, but how the heck does one maintain confidence the stone is sanitary? To my mind, cleaning a porous stone must be a challenge...

Some say boiling is good for cleaning. And I'm under the impression that positive pressure on the stone prior to putting it into any liquid keeps the liquid on the exterior and out of the pores. The only time I don't pressurize the stone is when I soak it in a bucket of starsan. I start the O2 before I remove the wand from the sanitizer and submerge the stone in the wort. I keep the 02 flowing while I rinse in hot water. Rinse, repeat. So far so good.

 

[ayoungrad]

Does anyone here use and store their O2 indoors? I live in a highrise condo with no outside space.

 

[MazdaMatt]

I'm getting the vibe from some of the "oxygination evangelists" that you either oxygenate or you get crap beer. Sorry folks, but you're just not turning my crank with that argument. I've done some college rental house basement brewing with no more knowledge than what's written on the Coopers can (which doesn't even tell me to shake it or wet the yeast!) and I got decent beer every time with no delays, no stuck ferm, no infection.

I can certainly understand if you're taking your beer to competitions and your automated brewing system doesn't slosh the beer at all, or if you're a microbrewery and you need to pump out beer as quickly as possible... but for joe basement-brew the basics will totally hack it.

I'm going to go read Joe's thread about it and see if he changes my mind.

 

[Reelale]

Does anyone here use and store their O2 indoors? I live in a highrise condo with no outside space.

I do, in my garage. Oxygen is not flammable. Oxygen is not dangerous. Misuse of oxygen is dangerous. My tank valve remains shut until the cooling phase of brewing which means no flames anywhere.

I'm getting the vibe from some of the "oxygination evangelists" that you either oxygenate or you get crap beer. Sorry folks, but you're just not turning my crank with that argument. I've done some college rental house basement brewing with no more knowledge than what's written on the Coopers can (which doesn't even tell me to shake it or wet the yeast!) and I got decent beer every time with no delays, no stuck ferm, no infection.

I can certainly understand if you're taking your beer to competitions and your automated brewing system doesn't slosh the beer at all, or if you're a microbrewery and you need to pump out beer as quickly as possible... but for joe basement-brew the basics will totally hack it.

I'm going to go read Joe's thread about it and see if he changes my mind.

I don't think it's either/or. I think it's simply a matter of controlling every variable one can during the brewing process. God knows there are enough that are not controllable.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Well, S. Cervisiae is both aerobic and anaerobic. And also has a very short reproductive cycle. Average doubling of ~1 to ~2 hours.

Basically, under aerobic conditions the yeast sythesises the sterols needed for cell wall production in budding. However, these sterols can be provided without Oxygen by providing Linoleic Acid. During this phase, aerobic, the byproduct is primarily CO2.

BUT, once reproduction is complete and Oxygen is depleted the yeast do go into anaerobic phase and the byproduct is primarily Ethanol.

So, the balance shift of the byproducts is driven by the presence of Oxygen. If Oxygen is not present but the acid needed for sterol synthesis is there would be less CO2 production as a result.

 

[ayoungrad]

I'm getting the vibe from some of the "oxygination evangelists" that you either oxygenate or you get crap beer. Sorry folks, but you're just not turning my crank with that argument. I've done some college rental house basement brewing with no more knowledge than what's written on the Coopers can (which doesn't even tell me to shake it or wet the yeast!) and I got decent beer every time with no delays, no stuck ferm, no infection.

I can certainly understand if you're taking your beer to competitions and your automated brewing system doesn't slosh the beer at all, or if you're a microbrewery and you need to pump out beer as quickly as possible... but for joe basement-brew the basics will totally hack it.

I'm going to go read Joe's thread about it and see if he changes my mind.

Everyone (almost) on here seems to be saying that you can make good or great beer without oxygen. But, you can make even better beer with oxygen.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I do, in my garage. Oxygen is not flammable. Oxygen is not dangerous. Misuse of oxygen is dangerous. My tank valve remains shut until the cooling phase of brewing which means no flames anywhere.

It's an oxidizer. Thus reducing the flash point of any given flamabble material influenced by it.

It is often said that one of the leading causes of injury to people handling O2 is by way of spontaneous combustion of body oils. Those of the hand. The presence of high concentrations of O2 met with the already low flash point of the oil of the skin "can" cause spontaneous combustion as a result of the friction of the gas providing the heat.

Crazy stuff this world.

 

[BendBrewer]

By no means did I mean to imply that you get "crap beer". I have made great beer without stones. Even won a couple of ribbons without it. But for folks looking to do everything they can to improve their product, O2 is step that they can make if they want to.

It certainly will have more of an effect than upgrading other parts of the system or process. People spend 360 bucks on a new kettle that won't have any effect. Spending money on a O2 rig will.

To each his own and the main reason I went with the stone was so that I could do that step with a beer in hand and my stand just wasn't complete without it.

 

[Pilgarlic]

I'm getting the vibe from some of the "oxygination evangelists" that you either oxygenate or you get crap beer. Sorry folks, but you're just not turning my crank with that argument. I've done some college rental house basement brewing with no more knowledge than what's written on the Coopers can (which doesn't even tell me to shake it or wet the yeast!) and I got decent beer every time with no delays, no stuck ferm, no infection.

I can certainly understand if you're taking your beer to competitions and your automated brewing system doesn't slosh the beer at all, or if you're a microbrewery and you need to pump out beer as quickly as possible... but for joe basement-brew the basics will totally hack it.

I'm going to go read Joe's thread about it and see if he changes my mind.

If you're getting that vibe, you're reading a different thread than I am. I think most have said that oxygen is not necessary to make good beer, but another step in OPTIMIZING, which would seem to be in agreement with your opinion.

 

[Reelale]

It's an oxidizer. Thus reducing the flash point of any given flamabble material influenced by it.

It is often said that one of the leading causes of injury to people handling O2 is by way of spontaneous combustion of body oils. Those of the hand. The presence of high concentrations of O2 met with the already low flash point of the oil of the skin "can" cause spontaneous combustion as a result of the friction of the gas providing the heat.

Crazy stuff this world.

I guess I'll start wearing gloves then. Ah well, no risk-no reward.

 

[MazdaMatt]

By no means did I mean to imply that you get "crap beer". I have made great beer without stones. Even won a couple of ribbons without it. But for folks looking to do everything they can to improve their product, O2 is step that they can make if they want to.

If you're getting that vibe, you're reading a different thread than I am. I think most have said that oxygen is not necessary to make good beer, but another step in OPTIMIZING, which would seem to be in agreement with your opinion.

Okay, this seems more like a sober point of view that I can accept. Since I don't own half of the gear that most of you seem to, oxygen is pretty low on my list. I'm certainly going to have a temp control chamber long before I start adding O2. I'm still brewing in a storage closet that is far from dedicated to my brewing.

I wish I could better understand the difference in final flavour. Perhaps I'd better appreciate it.

 

[beerkrump]

Basically, under aerobic conditions the yeast sythesises the sterols needed for cell wall production in budding. However, these sterols can be provided without Oxygen by providing Linoleic Acid. During this phase, aerobic, the byproduct is primarily CO2.

Or, too just muddy the waters, you can provide oleic acid to the yeast in the starter by adding olive oil and just skip aeration.

Here's the write up.

 

[ayoungrad]

Or, too just muddy the waters, you can provide oleic acid to the yeast in the starter by adding olive oil and just skip aeration.

Here's the write up.

Can't read through the entire article right now. Did they mention anything about head retention?

 

[MazdaMatt]

In the abstract:
The beers produced from these fermentations were comparable
in flavor and foam retention to beers produced by traditional wort aeration.

Interesting... so aeration risks oxidation, which can ruin the flavour... and adding olive oil spurs the yeast without oxidation.

 

[beerkrump]

It's in there. The amount of olive oil added is minuscule, around 1ml/5 gallon batch.

Here's an earlier HBT thread.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/using-olive-oil-instead-oxygen-47872/

 

[coypoo]

I think I am convinced and will start looking into O2. My beers have been good in my eyes, but of the few that I have entered into competition I am getting bad marks for phenolic aromas/flavors which several have attributed to poor fermentation/stressed yeast. I know I pitch the correct amount, I have a fridge to temp control, I get good attenuation, so maybe the only thing left is to try oxygenation

 

[MazdaMatt]

That paper was an interesting read. Looks like a low-tech drop of olive oil in your yeast starter may be an uber-cheap replacement to the setup, purchase and storage of oxygen, also reducing oxidation during storage.

There was no mention of what type of olive oil was used. Perhaps jsut reading labels to see which type (virgin, light, etc) has the highest unsaturated fatty acid content.

 

[jfowler1]

Okay, this seems more like a sober point of view that I can accept. Since I don't own half of the gear that most of you seem to, oxygen is pretty low on my list. I'm certainly going to have a temp control chamber long before I start adding O2. I'm still brewing in a storage closet that is far from dedicated to my brewing.

I wish I could better understand the difference in final flavour. Perhaps I'd better appreciate it.

Matt,

You are living in an apple world and arguing about oranges. Do not take this discussion the wrong way. Beer can be made with the most rudimentary processes. Prior to this stout, my favorite beer, by far, was my first beer. It was the Cascade Pale Ale Partial Mash kit from Midwest. I'll never forget cracking the first beer, hearing a hiss, tasting it, and realizing that I just made beer on my stove top. Awesome stuff. I had practically no equipment, no temperature control, used poor sanitation, mishandled my yeast, and never even heard about oxygen or aeration. None of that mattered, I made beer. My point in the other thread is that it took 25 batches before I had that Eureka! feeling again (I think I even used that Eureka! word in my old thread). Over two years I pretty much maxed out on the the upgrades I wanted to make, but none of those upgrades made the clear impact of O2. I know it sounds crazy. I had a hard time believeing it too.

Rant time.

The hobby is different for different people. Some like the social aspect of brewday or clubs, some like drinking cheaply, some like competitions - me, I love to cook, and this is an extention of that joy. I enjoy brewing because like cooking, you make something from scratch, and get to taste the fruits of your labor. Is there anything more rewarding? Even better, you get to share. I am never happy to hand someone a plate of food that could have tasted better, and likewise, am not happy handing someone a beer that could have tasted better. I love the action, timing, organization, adjustments, and skills of the cooking process, so I really like putting those same skills to work on brewday. That said, I enjoy sharing and discussing brewday tips with others, because after all - of everything I know, it is proabably 10% experience and 90% learned from others. It is why I joined the community and am now willing to type out a thoughtful answer that might be useful to someone else.

As I said, brewing is different things for different people. Craigtube enjoys drinking his own beer as much as Jamil enjoys drinking his own beer. One has a youtube video, the other writes books. A judge might not say their beers are equal in quality, but that does not mean the brewers can not enjoy making and drinking them equally.

I am afraid you are missing the point of the discussion, and maybe this board in general. The OP clearly wants to hear some insite on a process change that he heard might get his beer to a new level. We offered him some good tips and experiences, but you told him not to bother because you have made 6-8 beers and people have been brewing without oxygen systems for thousands of years. Several people (myself included) jumped down your throat, because your comments were no help to the OP. Do not confuse that with accusing you of making crap beer. The two are not connected.

This community is built on exchanging ideas and experiences to help new brewers and better the hobby. Someone who is not willing to listen to new ideas, and constantly falls back on "if its not broke don't fix it" and the awful RDWHAHB are not contributing anything to the community, and certainly not moving the hobby forward. RDWHAHB is a philosophy in the hobby, not the answer to a good question.

I strongly suggest spending some time on the board, listen to podcasts, read books, experiment for yourself, basically just get some experience, and then start to offer your opinion. Questions are always welcome, but uneducated comments; not so much.

Does that make sense?

Joe

 

[terrapinj]

do people ever add direct O2 to their yeast starters either in place of a stir plate or in addition to using a stir plate?

 

[beerkrump]

do people ever add direct O2 to their yeast starters either in place of a stir plate or in addition to using a stir plate?

Yes, they do. Stir plates are superior as the supply is continuous.

Here's a great link.

 

[sjbeerman]

I started using pure O2 as part of a troubleshooting process due to a series of stuck fermentations. As many of you know, a healthy fermentation involves a series of variables (i.e., healthy yeast, temp, O2, etc.). Unfortunately, adding O2 to the mix did not resolve my problem, but making yeast starters did. I continue to use pure O2 because I know it is optimal for the yeast. I also add a dose of pure O2 to my starters prior to turning on the stir plate. Recently, I added temp control to the set up with a chest freezer. I think I'm all set now...

 

[edmanster]

I'm certainly going to have a temp control chamber long before I start adding O2. I'm still brewing in a storage closet that is far from dedicated to my brewing.

I wish I could better understand the difference in final flavour. Perhaps I'd better appreciate it.

Sorry, a little off topic but this is the best thing for understanding the difference in final flavor because you'll have better control of the process and recognize the profile the yeast contribute to final product. Different temps during fermentation release different flavors.. Sorry again but this is most critical...

 

[thebeers54]

Thanks a lot guys.. you just cost me $50! Just kidding.. I knew there was something I needed to buy but I forgot what it was between all the other crap I've bought the last couple months. I haven't had any trouble with fermentations.. my yeast always take off within about 12 hours. Temps are good (66-72) depending on location and my beers so far have been good. But I want my beer to be the absolute best it can be, plus I just love buying new toys!

 

[ayoungrad]

But apparently all you need is a bottle of olive oil and you are good to go for the rest of the year.

 

[coryforsenate]

I'd suggest the cheap olive oil. Don't get the extra virgin stuff unless you want to risk adding olive flavor to your beer. The more processed, the better.