Oxidizing while siphoning

[ProfX]

Today, I threw away half of my beer in anger. Siphoning is always an issue for me. I had a Pale Ale that had been in the secondary for 3 weeks and dry hopping for another week that I was about to bottle. On my transfer to the bottling bucket, i noticed a whole bunch of bubbles in the line. I tried pinching the tube but that didn't help. The more beer it siphoned the worst it got. I took a picture but I'm not sure how to insert it here. At any rate, while trying to fix the bubbles, I lost my siphon at about half way down my 2 gallon bucket. I tried starting it back up, but I could not get a siphon going. I was actually blowing air into my beer and mixing up all the gunk from the bottom back into my beer. Me and my bad temper , I ended up just throwing the rest of the beer down the drain.....which I instantly regretted :smack:. I had bottled 1 gallon of this beer after the primary which I had already carb'd up and tasted, and it was the best beer I had made to date.

My questions are:
1. Do those bubbles mean I oxidized my beer, and if so how will I be able to tell?
2. Any tips on how to get a good siphon going without bubbles? Could the fact that I was trying to start a siphon on a small amount of beer have caused me not to be able to get the suction going again?

 

[ProfX]

Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[troy2000]

Today, I threw away half of my beer in anger. Siphoning is always an issue for me. I had a Pale Ale that had been in the secondary for 3 weeks and dry hopping for another week that I was about to bottle. On my transfer to the bottling bucket, i noticed a whole bunch of bubbles in the line. I tried pinching the tube but that didn't help. The more beer it siphoned the worst it got. I took a picture but I'm not sure how to insert it here. At any rate, while trying to fix the bubbles, I lost my siphon at about half way down my 2 gallon bucket. I tried starting it back up, but I could not get a siphon going. I was actually blowing air into my beer and mixing up all the gunk from the bottom back into my beer. Me and my bad temper , I ended up just throwing the rest of the beer down the drain.....which I instantly regretted :smack:. I had bottled 1 gallon of this beer after the primary which I had already carb'd up and tasted, and it was the best beer I had made to date.

My questions are:
1. Do those bubbles mean I oxidized my beer, and if so how will I be able to tell?
2. Any tips on how to get a good siphon going without bubbles? Could the fact that I was trying to start a siphon on a small amount of beer have caused me not to be able to get the suction going again?

I had a serious problem with air, the first time I tried bottling beer. I was using a piece of clear plastic hose slipped over the end of the racking cane, and the cane was plastic - which meant the inside diameter of the hose was measurably larger than the inside diameter of the cane. I discovered two apparently immutable laws of nature:

1. Transitioning from one inside diameter to a larger one while siphoning guarantees there will be air in the system.

2. Dribbling sticky beer on the countertop, cabinet doors and floor while fighting a balky siphon guarantees homebrewing activity will be banished from the kitchen, on pain of death.....

Next time I used a piece of hose with the same outside diameter as the outside of the racking cane, and a small chunk of the larger diameter hose slipped over the joint as a connecter. End of problem... the hose stayed full of wort, with no air bubbles.

I have a metal racking cane now, and I just stuff my hose right into it and tape the joint.

 

[jro238]

First suggestion to anyone who is worried about oxidation: if you really think you got too much oxygen in your beer then just drink it quickly and you'll never know the difference .

I'm guessing that the bubbles that you saw were where your tubing connects to your racking cane? You will always get bubbles here. Remember that your fermented beer has some carbonation (maybe 1-1.3 volumes) so you will get some CO2 bubbles if the beer becomes turbulent. If you are really worried about oxidation then you can always flush the transfer tubing, bottling bucket, and bottles with CO2 prior to racking the beer. As for siphoning,, I just pay attention to the liquid level and use my auto-siphon.

***EDIT***
I see you posted pictures while I was typing this. Definitely a lot of bubbles. I've never seen that when racking.

 

[vmaxinid]

Use a steeper drop for better siphon.

 

[kharper6]

Buy an autosiphon, buy an autosiphon clamp, use a higher drop.

This will cost you about $19 but it will be valuable forever.

 

[flars]

The first time I used a racking cane solo I said it was the last time I would use a racking cane. It is a real pain trying to control both ends at the same time.
I purchased an auto siphon. Went with the smaller diameter one. Transfer is slower, but if a problem arises the problem is of less consequence. An auto siphon is very easy to use.
During one racking session I started to get some bubbles entering the hose. Use and age hardened the tubing. The hose had become slightly oval where it connected to the siphon. I cut an inch off and no more bubbles.
Since then I have purchased a clip to attach the siphon at the carboy mouth. No need to even hold the siphon for the first three-quarters of the volume. The clip will also hold the siphon on the rim of a bucket.

My recommendation is to purchase an auto siphon. To keep the gasket in good condition do not store the siphon assembled.

 

[jbaysurfer]

If you're using an autosiphon, sometimes the seal between the racking cane (the piece you "pump" to initiate a siphon) and the siphon body (the larger cylinder the racking cane goes into) can leak. If it does you'll get a venturi effect..which is to say, it'll suck in air. There is basically a longterm fix for this...replacing the autosiphone; or a short term fix...putting some starsan/beer on TOP of the seal but between the siphon body and the racking cane, so the venturi effect only sucks in sanitizer if anything.

In general this works well enough, but if this is happening to your autosiphon, you really need to replace it.

If you're not using an auto-siphon, ignore all that. Make it'll help out some future searcher of answers.

 

[troy2000]

The first time I used a racking cane solo I said it was the last time I would use a racking cane. It is a real pain trying to control both ends at the same time.
I purchased an auto siphon. Went with the smaller diameter one. Transfer is slower, but if a problem arises the problem is of less consequence. An auto siphon is very easy to use.
During one racking session I started to get some bubbles entering the hose. Use and age hardened the tubing. The hose had become slightly oval where it connected to the siphon. I cut an inch off and no more bubbles.
Since then I have purchased a clip to attach the siphon at the carboy mouth. No need to even hold the siphon for the first three-quarters of the volume. The clip will also hold the siphon on the rim of a bucket.

My recommendation is to purchase an auto siphon. To keep the gasket in good condition do not store the siphon assembled.

If you're racking from a carboy, stick the cane through the same drilled bung (rubber stopper) you use for the airlock. You can set it to the precise depth you want that way, and keep it from wobbling around. But don't shove it in hard enough to create a seal; you need to let air in. I've considered drilling a second hole in one of my bungs for the purpose; that way I could jam it in solidly.

And if you tilt your carboy by sticking your Homebrewing for Dummies book under one side, you can usually angle the bung a little and just shove the cane into the corner to get the last of the beer off the trub....

I don't store my brewing equipment under air conditioning, and the extreme summer temperatures around here are hard on things like auto-siphons. I've bought them for other purposes, and they wind up being one-use items.

add: lately I've been racking my beer into a bottling bucket, instead of trying to bottle directly from the carboy. It's an extra step, but I'm only juggling one thing at a time that way.

 

[mtnagel]

If you are using an autosiphon, I've found these things really help:

- Put a small amount of keg lube on the rubber gasket at the bottom of the raking cane and the outer tube of the autosiphon. This creates a better seal and doesn't allow air in.
- Make sure the plastic tubing fits very tightly on the output of the raking cane. Use hot water to make the plastic tubing more pliable to get on. This will stop air from coming in at that junction.
- Make sure the end of the output tube is lower than the end of the inlet of the autosiphon.

Now that I make sure all these are correct every time, I never have any more issues with the autosphon.

If you aren't using an autosphon, go buy one and follow the tips above.

 

[Queequeg]

Some good advice in this thread. The parts I would personally emphasis is;

get a good seal between the cane and the tubing, hot water and brute force is good. I also use a jubilee clip as a double measure.

Fill the auto siphon with beer to stop the venturi

store the cane and autosiphon seperate so that they don't deform

 

[BigPerm]

get a good seal between the cane and the tubing, hot water and brute force is good.

+1 for sure on the first part. When I have problems, I'll put a plastic hose clamp right at the end of the racking cane. I've actually found I get a better seal when both the hose and racking cane are coming out of a bucket of cold sanitizer; the extra constriction seems to help.

One question to perhaps offer a (slight) counter point to the above: what was the temperature of your fermentation? If it was on the cool side, a lot of what you are seeing could be CO2 release from the beer. As someone pointed out, when you go from a smaller to larger OD (as most of us do using an autosiphon), your beer will hit a nucleation point which can drive CO2 out of solution. I've had the exact same issue as you a couple of times, but never really noticed any flavor detriment.

 

[Queequeg]

^^ dude that is some serious capacity for brewing you have in your sig. I only ever seem to get two brews on the go before I have drunk them.

 

[ProfX]

One question to perhaps offer a (slight) counter point to the above: what was the temperature of your fermentation? If it was on the cool side, a lot of what you are seeing could be CO2 release from the beer. .

I fermented this at 62F in a temp controlled chamber, but by the time I was racking to the bottling bucket in this case I had already cold crashed it for a week or so down to about 33F and had let it get back to room temp to make sure it carb'd right. Would there still be residual CO2 there?

 

[sumbrewindude]

Autosiphon + silicon tubing = success.

Don't even bother fooling around with the vinyl tubing, just spend the money and get the silicon tubing. It seals better, doesn't curl, and can easily be cleaned/maintained.

I fought with siphoning issues too long before just saying screw it and getting the right tools for the job. Spend the money, be happy.

 

[BigPerm]

I fermented this at 62F in a temp controlled chamber, but by the time I was racking to the bottling bucket in this case I had already cold crashed it for a week or so down to about 33F and had let it get back to room temp to make sure it carb'd right. Would there still be residual CO2 there?

Very likely. CO2 solubility is much higher in the cold than at room temp, but it takes awhile to come out of solution once it warms. I would be willing to bet that your issues were mostly CO2 degassing. Sucks you threw some out (it is nerve-wracking when that happens). Or is it nerve-racking?

 

[BigPerm]

^^ dude that is some serious capacity for brewing you have in your sig. I only ever seem to get two brews on the go before I have drunk them.

Ha! To be fair, I only have a few bottles left of most of those. I took about a 4 year hiatus from brewing while I was in graduate school, and took it back up last year to teach my BIL and it sorta snowballed. Most were double-batches (10 gal, 2 yeasts) and a separate 5 gal in one session. You get a nice variety this way....