Overheated mash --> hay/tannins in beer?

[Gravity]

This is a first for me

I was checking the gravity of a blonde ale that I made about a week ago, and gave it a taste, well its borderline gross. It almost tastes like uncrushed grain and grass/hay - astringent. I did a little research and compared it to my process for this brew session, and i think i know what happened.

I mashed way longer than expected at about 2 hours, whereas my normal mash is 60-75 min. Depending on the beer style, I tend to mash around 66-68 C / 151-155 F, and for this beer i got a little distracted and before i knew it - 2 hours had passed. I was rushing to get my sparge water up to temp, and added direct flame to my mash thinking that the temp inside the mash-tun had dropped. I never really checked the temp inside the tun, but did the sparge water 75c / 168f

Usually my mash-tun retains temp well, with only a 3-4 degree temp drop in a about 1/1.5 hours

Adding direct flame to my mash I think was my undoing - I might have raised the temp higher than needed before fly sparging.

1 week into fermentation, the beer taste....not good...i'll let it go until full fermentation as I hate to dump it.

I guess my questions are - is this beer salvageable and does the tannins/hay/grass go away with time? I can maybe keg it and let it mellow over time vs bottling it .

Any thoughts on this?

I was reading this from beer smith that kinda put things in perspective

 

[cire]

Your beer will differ from one mashed for 60 minutes. I rarely mash for less than 90 minutes and frequently 2 hours pass before letting clear runnings into the boiler. However, if you have scorched the grains in your mash, the outcome could be very different.

Astringency from grains when sparging is more commonly the result of higher pH in the mash when its buffering is reduced as the remaining sugars diminish.

Give the beer time to fully ferment and the green beer so produce time to mature and carbonate.

 

[Gravity]

I don't think i scorched the grains as i was definitely conscious of that and stirred as needed - how would it be different, in what way?
Ph doesn't drop naturally, and if thats the case, i'm not sure what could have caused that..."Astringency from grains when sparging is more commonly the result of higher pH in the mash when its buffering is reduced as the remaining sugars diminish."

This sounds to me like my sparge water temp + the direct heat I applied to the mash-tun exceeded normal mash temps, coupled with a slow sparge

It still has roughly 1 week /2 weeks to go before i take another reading/rack - its at 1.020 now

in your experience has this mellowed over time, and if so, how long? I brewed the exact beer not that long ago and i checked my notes from that brew session - it tasted nothing like this. Matter of fact in over 10+ years of brewing - this is a first, i've never had this happen.

 

[VikeMan]

I don't think i scorched the grains as i was definitely conscious of that and stirred as needed - how would it be different, in what way?
Ph doesn't drop naturally, and if thats the case, i'm not sure what could have caused that..."Astringency from grains when sparging is more commonly the result of higher pH in the mash when its buffering is reduced as the remaining sugars diminish."

This sounds to me like my sparge water temp + the direct heat I applied to the mash-tun exceeded normal mash temps, coupled with a slow sparge

Tannins are extracted in every mash/sparge. Higher temps extract more. Higher Lower pH extracts more. Depending on how hot your mash got, I wouldn't be shocked if it caused a noticeable change. Also, do you know what your mash pH was? And the alkalinity of your sparge water?

in your experience has this mellowed over time, and if so, how long?

Tannins (polyphenols) can bind with proteins and settle out over time. In fact, that's the main thing that happens during lagering. So, if this is a tannin problem, there may be some hope for improvement.

 

[Gravity]

Right - that makes sense (the hot/low extraction). Its defineily a noticable change - i've never tasted this in any of by beers - it honestly taste like wet rice hulls. I don't know the ph of the mash or the alkalinity of the sparge water - but can only assume 5.2 as when i used to test the mash it thats what it always clocked in at - although its been a while since i've tested it as my water profile i don't believe has changed.

Tannins settling over time soounds promising - so i might not dump the beer, rather keg it and keep it aside for a while to see what happens. hopefully its not months

 

[VikeMan]

Right - that makes sense (the hot/low extraction).

It's actually high mash/sparge pH that can be an issue, not low. I have no idea why I typed "lower" initially, and have edited my post.

 

[Gravity]

No - worries, i knew what you meant

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Sparge run off pH going too high is a tannin inducer. And I recall reading a peer reviewed study which indicated that even crush itself can induce more tannins. The finding was that the greater the crush the more potential for husk tannins to be a problem.

But we should be comforted by the fact that tannins can be nigh on completely removed via adsorption onto polyvinylpyrrolidone during filtration. Or at least I presume that this comforts the big market breweries.

The rest of us may need to transition to huskless malts. Huskless and Lox-less malts are the dream ticket with both greatly diminished tannins and greatly diminished oxygen side effects. Both forms of malt exist, but not both together yet to my knowledge.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

According to Narziss, tannins were once added to German export beers as a stabilizer.

 

[VikeMan]

And I recall reading a peer reviewed study which indicated that even crush itself can induce more tannins. The finding was that the greater the crush the more potential for husk tannins to be a problem.

If you happen to have a link to this study, that would be awesome and much appreciated. Anecdotally (i.e. based on my own experience), I've always suspected there may be a connection, but haven't seen anything definitive.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If you happen to have a link to this study, that would be awesome and much appreciated. Anecdotally (i.e. based on my own experience), I've always suspected there may be a connection, but haven't seen anything definitive.

Quote:

The husks should be crushed as little as possible in order to prevent the undesirable dissolution of tannins, bitter compounds, and coloring substances, which could have an adverse effect on the taste of the beer.

Page 196

https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/14356007.a03_421.pub2

 

[VikeMan]

Cool! Will check it out.

 

[Gravity]

Cool! Will check it out.

interesting read

My grind size hasn't changed, so i'm chalking it up to adding direct flame to the mashtun and sparging to high.
The question is wether to dump the beer or not - will this go away with time?

 

[VikeMan]

The question is wether to dump the beer or not - will this go away with time?

Time will tell.

 

[couchsending]

Wait you made a blonde ale and after 7 days the gravity was at 1.020? What was the OG? What yeast did you use?

A standard 1.050 beer with the right amount of yeast and o2 should be done in about 3 days. Certainly below 1.020.

So what acid are you adding to get to 5.2 pH.

Tannins are pretty much always pH related vs temp. Brewers do Decoction remember. You can boil portions of the mash and not get tannin extraction. If your sparge water was 168 I doubt the grain bed was still really hot by the time gravity started to get low which again is when tannin extraction happens.

 

[VikeMan]

Tannins are pretty much always pH related vs temp.

Both are factors. And every mash/sparge extracts some amount of tannins, i.e. there's not a pH at which no tannins will be extracted.

Brewers do Decoction remember. You can boil portions of the mash and not get tannin extraction.

Decocted worts actually do contain more tannins than infusion mashed worts. What keeps it from getting out of hand are relatively low pH levels and the fact that only a portion of the mash is decocted.

 

[couchsending]

Both are factors. And every mash/sparge extracts some amount of tannins, i.e. there's not a pH at which no tannins will be extracted.



Decocted worts actually do contain more tannins than infusion mashed worts. What keeps it from getting out of hand are relatively low pH levels and the fact that only a portion of the mash is decocted.

You’re splitting hairs just to split them.

pH is the more important than temp when it comes to “over extraction” of tannins.

The “enhanced double decotion” that’s referred to the Narziss schedule I believe that boils 60% of the mash without an “over extraction” of tannins.

So I personally don’t think what the OP Is experiencing has much to do with heating the mash. The fact that it’s at 1.020 after 7 days (and a 2 hour mash) might means to me that’s there’s something else at play.

 

[VikeMan]

You’re splitting hairs just to split them.

That's really not my intent, and I wonder how you come to that conclusion. I read a lot of posts on here that more or less say that temperature doesn't matter. Or that you have to have high pH and high temps to extract tannins. Some people read it enough that they believe it. So I try to counteract that when I see it. My reply to you was not so much to refute what you said as it was to add nuance for others reading it. IMO, there's way too much binary thinking (on lots of topics). Not you necessarily, but in general.

pH is the more important than temp when it comes to “over extraction” of tannins.

This I agree with, sort of. But it also would depend on "how much" pH and "how much" temperature we're talking about. But I agree that in typical brewing practice, a pH cock-up that causes a tannin bomb is more likely to happen than a temperature cock-up that causes a tannin bomb.

 

[Gravity]

Wait you made a blonde ale and after 7 days the gravity was at 1.020? What was the OG? What yeast did you use?

A standard 1.050 beer with the right amount of yeast and o2 should be done in about 3 days. Certainly below 1.020.

So what acid are you adding to get to 5.2 pH.

Tannins are pretty much always pH related vs temp. Brewers do Decoction remember. You can boil portions of the mash and not get tannin extraction. If your sparge water was 168 I doubt the grain bed was still really hot by the time gravity started to get low which again is when tannin extraction happens.

OG was 1.048 and i used Lallemand west coast with a 4L starter
No acid or additives into the mash - when i used to test the mash it clocked in at 5.2 regularly. I'll start testing the PH again

I've done decoctions before with no problems, but i think this is slightly different as a decoction only is part of the mash - honestly this is a first.

I'll just have to be careful with temp and test the mash

 

[Gravity]

You’re splitting hairs just to split them.

pH is the more important than temp when it comes to “over extraction” of tannins.

The “enhanced double decotion” that’s referred to the Narziss schedule I believe that boils 60% of the mash without an “over extraction” of tannins.

So I personally don’t think what the OP Is experiencing has much to do with heating the mash. The fact that it’s at 1.020 after 7 days (and a 2 hour mash) might means to me that’s there’s something else at play.

you think i could be yeast related? I did make a 4L starter - the yeast was on the old side but i've never had a problem with pitching old/rehyrdated yeast.
Come to think of it, when i was making a starter and cooling it down in the sink a chunk of ice fell in and I fished it out - but i didn't think much of it. I don't think this is infection etc

 

[marc1]

OG was 1.048 and i used Lallemand west coast with a 4L starter
No acid or additives into the mash - when i used to test the mash it clocked in at 5.2 regularly. I'll start testing the PH again

I've done decoctions before with no problems, but i think this is slightly different as a decoction only is part of the mash - honestly this is a first.

I'll just have to be careful with temp and test the mash

So you've brewed this recipe multiple times and the measured pH was always 5.2?

Or whatever you brewed the pH was always 5.2?

How are you measuring pH and at what temperature?

 

[Gravity]

So you've brewed this recipe multiple times and the measured pH was always 5.2?

Or whatever you brewed the pH was always 5.2?

How are you measuring pH and at what temperature?

As i've mentioned, I haven't been measuring the PH religiously as in years past. I stopped doing so a while back when my pH (for whatever I brewed) was always 5.2, so I got lazy with it and stopped doing so. When I did measure it, it was at mash temp (151-154 F range) and would do so during recirculation/sparing.

The more i read and research, the more i'm convinced i mashed to high, and then sparged to high.

 

[Tony Palmer]

Once you get the brew process wrong it won't be imroved by later in FV performance. Sorry to say but I would ditch it.

 

[Gravity]

Once you get the brew process wrong it won't be imroved by later in FV performance. Sorry to say but I would ditch it.

I appreciate that, thats the way I was leaning - I do have some kegs to spare, so i might keg a batch and dump the rest.
I just hate dumping beer, so annoying and a waste of time and money - but i guess that the life we sign-up for.

 

[marc1]

As i've mentioned, I haven't been measuring the PH religiously as in years past. I stopped doing so a while back when my pH (for whatever I brewed) was always 5.2, so I got lazy with it and stopped doing so. When I did measure it, it was at mash temp (151-154 F range) and would do so during recirculation/sparing.

The more i read and research, the more i'm convinced i mashed to high, and then sparged to high.

This is odd... no matter what you brewed it was always about 5.2 at mash temp? What were you measuring with and how were you adjusting your mash (salts, acid, baking soda, etc.) and what were these adjustments based on?

Is it possible that your water changed from what it normally is?

This could be a side issue from sparging too hot, and if you generally make beer that you like it might not matter to you, but really getting to the bottom of what's in your water could help make your beer even better.

 

[couchsending]

OG was 1.048 and i used Lallemand west coast with a 4L starter
No acid or additives into the mash - when i used to test the mash it clocked in at 5.2 regularly. I'll start testing the PH again

I've done decoctions before with no problems, but i think this is slightly different as a decoction only is part of the mash - honestly this is a first.

I'll just have to be careful with temp and test the mash

I’d be interested to see your tap water profile if you were able to get to 5.2ph with no acid malt or acid additions and a blonde ale grist.

 

[shelly_belly]

Gelatin is great at removing astringency.