Overcarbed/Twang Taste

[iambeer]

Not saying this is related to your issue but I am wondering from if you add something to harden the water? It sounds like you use spring water for everything. As far as I know (from reading), brown ale and rye ale wants hard water. By the way you can break down chloramine from boiling water in 20 minutes. I know there are additives to harden water but I plan on using filtered city water for my beer (if filtered water is good enough for my cooking, etc, why shouldn't it be good enough for my drink?

I'm interested in this problem though. And I find your 1 gallon batches interesting. It allows you to try various recipes very quickly doesn't it?

 

[pabloj13]

Not saying this is related to your issue but I am wondering from if you add something to harden the water? It sounds like you use spring water for everything. As far as I know (from reading), brown ale and rye ale wants hard water. By the way you can break down chloramine from boiling water in 20 minutes. I know there are additives to harden water but I plan on using filtered city water for my beer (if filtered water is good enough for my cooking, etc, why shouldn't it be good enough for my drink?

I'm interested in this problem though. And I find your 1 gallon batches interesting. It allows you to try various recipes very quickly doesn't it?

Chlorine can be removed by boiling. Not chloramine.

 

[iambeer]

Chlorine can be removed by boiling. Not chloramine.

Are you 100% about your source? I know chlorine is a lot less stable than chloramine but my sources say that chloramine (and ammonia) breaks down in 20 minutes of boiling water. My water has chloramine so I have pondered this for a while.

 

[jwplessner]

OP if you want to diagnose excess co2 as the reason for your off flavor, simply do a side by side comparison of a degassed sample and a fully carbonated sample.

Pour 3 oz into two separate glasses. Free one sample of co2. Taste.

Try to keep controls consistent, like temperature, suspended yeast, etc.

 

[brewski08]

i know the exact taste you are talking about...and it comes from excess carbonation.

when i first began kegging, my first 2 or 3 batches had that metallic/twangy/cardboard-esque taste. with the help of Topher (shout out!) i was able to credit this taste to pro-longed force carbing times which essentially gave rise to over carbonation.

i remember being extremely frustrated with this taste...especially since it would only arise in the beer after it was carbonated and not during fermentation.

although i have not tried your beers, i am very, very confident that this taste you are describing is due to over carbonating your beers causing carbonic acid to form.

you need to re-evaluate your priming process. are you sure your scale is calibrated? are you using the correct type of priming sugar? are you mixing your priming solution well enough? are you using a reliable priming calculator?

look into all these questions. if you're confident in all of your responses and your priming process as a whole, maybe it's time to look into kegging.

 

[pabloj13]

Are you 100% about your source? I know chlorine is a lot less stable than chloramine but my sources say that chloramine (and ammonia) breaks down in 20 minutes of boiling water. My water has chloramine so I have pondered this for a while.

Here is a source:

http://hbd.org/ajdelange/Brewing_articles/BT_Chlorine.pdf

It lists a half life of 26 minutes. It's typical to think of the removal of something taking 5 half-lives or 130 minutes. It is not considered an adequate way to remove chloramine. Campden tablets, on the other hand, are extremely cheap and take less than 5 minutes to remove chloramines.

Figure 5.4 is interesting in other ways. First, we see that just bringing the water to a boil (which took a little
over an hour with the Superb (TM) burner we used) reduced the chloramine concentration by almost exactly half. The
actual concentration numbers were 2.82 mg/L at the start of heating and 1.42 at the commencement of the boil (note
that a reduction to a half is represented by a log scale change of 0.301). Thus the half life for the treatment “heat to a
boil” is about 65 minutes for this sample from the FCWA. Compare with the155 minute half life for standing at 60°F.
This lends support to the idea that temperature has a profound effect on half life. Second, we see that while the overall
process sucessfully dechloraminated (and removed the very small 0.08 mg/L free chlorine as well) the water, it took
nearly two hours to do this. A more potent burner would have gotten the water to boiling faster but it would still take
about 50 minutes of boiling to reduce the chloramine to the terminal 0.01 mg/L of this experiment. During an hour’s
boil one can expect 10 - 20% of the original water volume to be lost. Comparing the Case 12 results with Case 4 we
conclude that boiling will remove chlorine and chloramine completely but that it may no be a practical approach
unless
• The water is to be boiled anyway for decarbonation
• The brewer does not wish to use a chemical method

 

[JeffoC6]

i know the exact taste you are talking about...and it comes from excess carbonation.

when i first began kegging, my first 2 or 3 batches had that metallic/twangy/cardboard-esque taste. with the help of Topher (shout out!) i was able to credit this taste to pro-longed force carbing times which essentially gave rise to over carbonation.

i remember being extremely frustrated with this taste...especially since it would only arise in the beer after it was carbonated and not during fermentation.

although i have not tried your beers, i am very, very confident that this taste you are describing is due to over carbonating your beers causing carbonic acid to form.

you need to re-evaluate your priming process. are you sure your scale is calibrated? are you using the correct type of priming sugar? are you mixing your priming solution well enough? are you using a reliable priming calculator?

look into all these questions. if you're confident in all of your responses and your priming process as a whole, maybe it's time to look into kegging.

Since you know exactly what I'm dealing with, I'd like to pick your brain...

I don't really ever taste cardboard. Most of the beers I drink taste fine on the front, and after swallowing, and the normal burping afterward, I get a sharp/off/metally taste in my burp gas (haha).

I really truly am confident in my priming process, except for the following:
-I don't let the priming sugar cool long enough after boiling
-I don't achieve a good whirpool when I'm racking into the priming sugar
-I don't stir at all

I'm confident in my scale as well.

 

[brewski08]

Since you know exactly what I'm dealing with, I'd like to pick your brain...

I don't really ever taste cardboard. Most of the beers I drink taste fine on the front, and after swallowing, and the normal burping afterward, I get a sharp/off/metally taste in my burp gas (haha).

I really truly am confident in my priming process, except for the following:
-I don't let the priming sugar cool long enough after boiling
-I don't achieve a good whirpool when I'm racking into the priming sugar
-I don't stir at all

I'm confident in my scale as well.

there's actually another post in the beginners forum discussing the issue of over carbonating and another member suggested a great experiment to test for over carbonation.

-pour a beer and take a sip to see if you're getting that metallic/twangy taste.
-if so, let it sit for a period of time.
-during this period of time, take a sip of your beer every 5 minutes or so.

if this taste is decreasing over this period of time, it is most likely do to carbonic acid leaving your beer.

 

[JeffoC6]

there's actually another post in the beginners forum discussing the issue of over carbonating and another member suggested a great experiment to test for over carbonation.

-pour a beer and take a sip to see if you're getting that metallic/twangy taste.
-if so, let it sit for a period of time.
-during this period of time, take a sip of your beer every 5 minutes or so.

if this taste is decreasing over this period of time, it is most likely do to carbonic acid leaving your beer.

Interestingly enough, last night, as I was drinking my overcarbonated Red Rye Ale, I nursed it, since I wasn't enjoying it due to the overcarbonation. When I took the last few sips, it was pretty warm, and I noticed that it was actually more manageable to drink at that point.

Sounds like I've got a case of overcarbonation. Now I have to figure out how to solve it. I'm betting that it's due to my lack of dispersing the priming sugar througout the wort, causing uneven carbing. I'm going to have to start stirring methinks.

 

[TheKeg81]

When I took the last few sips, it was pretty warm, and I noticed that it was actually more manageable to drink at that point.

However, how come, with ALL batches I've had thusfar, I get that weird aftertaste when I burp? That's really not a huge problem, but I just don't get where it could be coming from.

It appears in the taste AND in the burp, but it's more noticeable in the taste on the higher carbonated beers?

I know you said you trust the scale, but have you tested your scale to see if it's calibrated? It could be precise, just not accurate.

I've lingering issues with my beer, I've been trying to sort out as well. It doesn't appear every beer, but it does reappear. So, I feel you and know it's a pain to try to figure some of these things out. Best of luck.

 

[iambeer]

Here is a source:

http://hbd.org/ajdelange/Brewing_articles/BT_Chlorine.pdf

It lists a half life of 26 minutes. It's typical to think of the removal of something taking 5 half-lives or 130 minutes. It is not considered an adequate way to remove chloramine. Campden tablets, on the other hand, are extremely cheap and take less than 5 minutes to remove chloramines.

Sorry I can't read your document. Too scientific. LOL... But maybe because your source is from 1998, it could be outdated?

But here's my source: http://www.sfwater.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=957

It lists a few ways of getting rid of chloramine.

It's an interesting read actually...

(sorry if I double posted; sorry to hijack this post)

 

[JeffoC6]

It appears in the taste AND in the burp, but it's more noticeable in the taste on the higher carbonated beers?

I know you said you trust the scale, but have you tested your scale to see if it's calibrated? It could be precise, just not accurate.

I've lingering issues with my beer, I've been trying to sort out as well. It doesn't appear every beer, but it does reappear. So, I feel you and know it's a pain to try to figure some of these things out. Best of luck.

The higher carbonated beers have that metalic/twinge to them, yes. The burp has the same taste.

The perfectly carbed beers I've had don't have that taste, but I do get that taste in the burp

 

[pabloj13]

Sorry I can't read your document. Too scientific. LOL... But maybe because your source is from 1998, it could be outdated?

But here's my source: http://www.sfwater.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=957

It lists a few ways of getting rid of chloramine.

It's an interesting read actually...

(sorry if I double posted; sorry to hijack this post)

That document makes no sense though. Chlorine can DEFINITELY be removed by boiling. Chloramine can too, but not in the times used by most brewers.

 

[iambeer]

That document makes no sense though. Chlorine can DEFINITELY be removed by boiling. Chloramine can too, but not in the times used by most brewers.

I was going to post a new thread about this but I don't think it's necessary anymore, because I don't think I need another opinion. I read your document more carefully and while it's from 2001 and well researched, it makes an assumption about how much time it takes to remove chloramine from boiling. This is a quote from the summary: "Chloramine can be removed by boiling though an extended boil may be required. "

In other words, there was no data at the time that showed exactly when it would be removed). My document says it takes 20 minutes of soft boiling.... and it's more recent. So.. we agree now? That according to the San Francisco water company, it takes 20 minutes to remove chloramine from the city water?

 

[Hernando]

TOO MUCH: iron or calcium oxalate in the water

Not sure but this stood out to me.

Have you tried changing the bottled water that you use? Just because it's bottled doesn't mean it doesn't come from their tap. Since you have no control and no idea what their manufacturing process is, perhaps trying a batch with RO water would be an easy enough test to see if it makes a difference. I hate to see you jump through hoops and get more frustrated as I can relate. But since your calculations and everything seem to b ewithin range I would say this would be the easiest route to troubleshooting and then move on from there if it doesn't work.

Best of luck man.

 

[JeffoC6]

Not sure but this stood out to me.

Have you tried changing the bottled water that you use? Just because it's bottled doesn't mean it doesn't come from their tap. Since you have no control and no idea what their manufacturing process is, perhaps trying a batch with RO water would be an easy enough test to see if it makes a difference. I hate to see you jump through hoops and get more frustrated as I can relate. But since your calculations and everything seem to b ewithin range I would say this would be the easiest route to troubleshooting and then move on from there if it doesn't work.

Best of luck man.

Thanks man, that's not a bad idea.

 

[JeffoC6]

Just talked to the guy at the LHBS. He asked if I also use bottled water when I dissolve (and then boil) my priming sugar solution. I told him that I use tap water. I know for a fact our water isn't that great...Maybe I'm adding some of that crap (Chlarmadine?) to my wort? Maybe that's what's giving me that metallic finish? Hmmmm

 

[pabloj13]

I was going to post a new thread about this but I don't think it's necessary anymore, because I don't think I need another opinion. I read your document more carefully and while it's from 2001 and well researched, it makes an assumption about how much time it takes to remove chloramine from boiling. This is a quote from the summary: "Chloramine can be removed by boiling though an extended boil may be required. "

In other words, there was no data at the time that showed exactly when it would be removed). My document says it takes 20 minutes of soft boiling.... and it's more recent. So.. we agree now? That according to the San Francisco water company, it takes 20 minutes to remove chloramine from the city water?

The data were in there. I even quoted the figure for you. In addition, every one of the references that I can access list boiling as an ineffective method to remove chloramine. The paper I linked actually tests chloramine levels leading up to and during a boil. Not sure where you think the "assumption" is. In addition, the EPA (you might have heard of them) says this on their site: "Monochloramine can be more difficult to remove from drinking water than
chlorine.
• Boiling water does not remove monochloramine from drinking water"

Note: San Francisco uses monochloramine, as do most municipalities that use chloramine as far as I can tell.

Regardless, this is irrelevant to the OP since he is using bottled water, but you might want to understand what you are talking about before you give others advice counter to the commonly held standards (Palmer says, "Chloramine cannot be removed by boiling and will give a medicinal taste to beer. Chloramine can be removed by running the water through an activated-charcoal filter, or by adding a campden tablet (potassium metabisulfite).")

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled twangy beer.

 

[duboman]

Just talked to the guy at the LHBS. He asked if I also use bottled water when I dissolve (and then boil) my priming sugar solution. I told him that I use tap water. I know for a fact our water isn't that great...Maybe I'm adding some of that crap (Chlarmadine?) to my wort? Maybe that's what's giving me that metallic finish? Hmmmm

I can't even believe I am adding to this string with 47 posts already, you are bottling your beer, it is no longer wort.......

It's carbonic acid your dealing with and it was answered this morning in the posts I sent you regarding that, you really need to cut back your priming sugar amount, make sure you are getting a good mix and sample the next batch, only doing 1 gallon batches it shouldn't take you that long as your first step to figuring this out, sheesh!

 

[Veedo]

What kind of brewpot are you using?

 

[D_Nyholm]

I can't even believe I am adding to this string with 47 posts already, you are bottling your beer, it is no longer wort.......

It's carbonic acid your dealing with and it was answered this morning in the posts I sent you regarding that, you really need to cut back your priming sugar amount, make sure you are getting a good mix and sample the next batch, only doing 1 gallon batches it shouldn't take you that long as your first step to figuring this out, sheesh!

Wow, not really necessary. I think we are all learning other things. Can't hurt to hash out other ideas. Whatever that abbreviation is, relax and have a homebrew.

 

[JeffoC6]

I can't even believe I am adding to this string with 47 posts already, you are bottling your beer, it is no longer wort.......

It's carbonic acid your dealing with and it was answered this morning in the posts I sent you regarding that, you really need to cut back your priming sugar amount, make sure you are getting a good mix and sample the next batch, only doing 1 gallon batches it shouldn't take you that long as your first step to figuring this out, sheesh!

 

[JeffoC6]

What kind of brewpot are you using?

A 3 gallon stainless steel stock pot.

 

[YeastHerder]

Another source of the overcarbing is that somewhere around page 2 you mentioned that you are plugging the warmest temperature you had during fermentation into the calculator. Try using the cooler temperature near the end of fermentation (but while fermentation is still active).

The reason for this suggestion is that gasses dissolve less in warm water than in cool water. So, your calculator is assuming less dissolved CO2 than what is probably really in there. It then tells you to add more sugar than you really need to. The effect isn't huge, but it all adds up.

 

[YeastHerder]

Another simple thing to save the existing overcarbed beers, just stir them like mad to force the excess CO2 out of solution.

H2CO3 ----(stir like crazy)----> H2O + CO2 (bubbles away and is gone)

You can do this until you get the level right where you like it. I do this with soda all the time because I don't like how super-carbed they usually are.

 

[JeffoC6]

Most appreciated, YeastHerder. Will take that into consideration. Would you mind checking out the recent thread I just started called "Priming Calculator?" I think I found my problem...

 

[Tiedye]

Next time you are ready to bottle, bottle one before you add priming sugar - none at all. Then see if that bottle gives the same flavor. That will tell you for sure if it is an over carb issue.

I'm having what Im guessing is the same nasty taste in all my brews. Still going through the process of elimination to pinpoint the issue.

Good luck!!!

 

[JeffoC6]

Next time you are ready to bottle, bottle one before you add priming sugar - none at all. Then see if that bottle gives the same flavor. That will tell you for sure if it is an over carb issue.

I'm having what Im guessing is the same nasty taste in all my brews. Still going through the process of elimination to pinpoint the issue.

Good luck!!!

Thanks, that makes sense.

 

[william2010]

Might be a little off topic but what is trub?

 

[Schmutzli]

I had a similar taste when I would clean my bottles and fermentor. Now I just rinse and Starsan, skipping the cleaners. Never had contamination and the taste went away. I would try leaving out the B-brite just to see what happens. Since you rinse/dry right after use you should be fine with just sanitizer.