Organic Brewing

[Fiery Sword]

I am just wondering what you would use to sanitize and cleen your equipment with in order to do an organic brew. Because wouldn't one have to take that into consideration in order to call it organic. I only ask because i don't know I am not trying to instagate anything. Thanks

Nice curveball!!! Now, having said that I do occasionally brew with organic ingredients might make one think I'd have an answer to this, but I don't. I am in it for the freshness and quality of the ingradients, and as I've stated I think breworganic.com are tops in that catagory. I use water and b-brite to clean, and an iodine solution to sterilize. The iodine technically 'gasses' off the glass (plastic, for you better bottlers ) as it dries so I'd argue that none of that stuff gets 'into' the beer. By then, all the b-brite is washed away also. I supposed I'd be guilty of not using an organic process, but I am pretty sure all the ingredients in the beer would be organic.......and I'm not sure how much that counts to people who care about the label or not!!!!

Seriously though, not from an organic perspective. If you aren't offended or turned off by the above-average $ I'd highly suggest trying a kit from breworganic.com .

 

[abracadabra]

woops sorry quoted the wrong guy


Iodine is a natural compound. Whether or not it would constitute organic or inorganic I don't know.

Very interesting tread.

I like to support substanable framing practices where it makes sense or where I can taste a difference. So I was very interested in fiery sword comments

 

[roggae]

the reason tis whole thread started is because i heard a podcast about it.

here is a link to that podcast:

February 8, 2007 - Brewing Organic
Amelia Slayton from Seven Bridges Cooperative in Santa Cruz, California tells us about brewing with organic ingredients and why we should try it.

http://www.basicbrewing.com/radio/

anyway i was thinking of brewing a HUGE IIPA organically...any thoughts?

 

[abracadabra]

the reason tis whole thread started is because i heard a podcast about it.

here is a link to that podcast:

February 8, 2007 - Brewing Organic
Amelia Slayton from Seven Bridges Cooperative in Santa Cruz, California tells us about brewing with organic ingredients and why we should try it.

http://www.basicbrewing.com/radio/

anyway i was thinking of brewing a HUGE IIPA organically...any thoughts?

Why? taste, health reasons, environmental concern

All of the above

Just wondering what your reason is as I was interested too. Mainly because I had been led to believe that farmers use a very large amount of pesticides on grains.

 

[roggae]

Why? taste, health reasons, environmental concern

All of the above

Just wondering what your reason is as I was interested too. Mainly because I had been led to believe that farmers use a very large amount of pesticides on grains.

i just think it is a god idea to be able to tell people where every component in your beer came from and how it was grown/harvested. i'm a neo-hippie!:rockin:

 

[zoebisch01]

i just think it is a god idea to be able to tell people where every component in your beer came from and how it was grown/harvested. i'm a neo-hippie!:rockin:

See that is the problem in a nutshell, roggae. The entire 'Organic' movement has become little more than a commercial movement. Most of what is sold in stores is so far from the true philosophy of 'Organic' it is pathetic. I agree with your sentiment, but unfortunately 'Organic' has become a means to bolster product cost. I don't consider a carrot grown in complete monoculture, that travels 2,000 miles before it reaches the consumer Organic. About the only thing it really assures you is that it has not been genetically modified. Don't believe for a minute they won't dowse a field with Pyrethrin if they need to.

 

[abracadabra]

There was a fantastic piece in the Wall St. Journal 1/16/07 about where buying organic made sense and where it did not. I'd post it but I'm afraid the B------d's would sue me for copyright infringement. They'll sell it for some absurd price.

Anyhow it did not mention grain products so it's not really relevant to this tread.

Here's how I see it.
Taste: a matter of personnal preference
Health concerns: Who knows? With pesticide and commercial fertilizer made from petro chemicals I'm sure they use as little as possible simply because of $
Enviromental concern: That's a matter of conscience

 

[Fiery Sword]

...that travels 2,000 miles before it reaches the consumer Organic.

Pre-comment buffer: I'm not being argumentative, just curious!

I don't understand your thoughts that if an item is shipped or transported it ceases to meet your definition of 'organic'. Let's be idealistic for a second and say that a farm in New Zealand makes 'organic' hops that meet your standard of the definition of the word. They package them up nicely, and ship them via jet to California. They sit in their nice little sealed package for a bit until I order them. They then jump into a UPS van and trek across the country. If I understand you correctly, you would not consider these hops organic once they got to my home near Boston, Mass. I don't get it!

Sure, I'd like to be able to buy from a local farm with 20+ varieties of hops, but that is simply not a realistic possibility.

 

[abracadabra]

. The entire 'Organic' movement has become little more than a commercial movement. .

I think zoe is right especially with the big guys now getting in on the action.

I believe that so called organic food coming from Con-Agra or ADM is just a marketing ploy and trust them about as much as "organic" produce from Mexico
where all that's required is greasing the right palms.

 

[zoebisch01]

There was a fantastic piece in the Wall St. Journal 1/16/07 about where buying organic made sense and where it did not. I'd post it but I'm afraid the B------d's would sue me for copyright infringement. They'll sell it for some absurd price.

Enviromental concern: That's a matter of conscience

The one thing that many consumers fail to realize is that the impact to the Environment is marginal when compared with modern non-organic production. The reason for this is that there really is little difference between the mechanized production, harvest, and transportation of both types and furthermore there are many 'certified' chemicals and amendments that are probably just as harmful to the environment. The whole thing is little more than a sham, seriously. Buying organic is only truly effective when you do so locally from local growers. The regulations and costs have imposed a burden on small growers, making it more difficult to compete with the big guys...and round and round it goes...


Anyways, when it comes to malted barley, the biggest advantage to obtaining organically produced malt is it would ensure non-genetically modified barley. If my understanding is correct there is currently no GE barley grown. This is the main reason I decided not to go with Organic base malt.

 

[Fiery Sword]

Cynicism abounds!!!!

Taking this industry-wide blows the scope of out little brewing community, IMHO. breworganic.com is the only source I know (though I haven't looked) for organic BEER ingredients, and this is how they define and descripe their business:

Q: When you say "organic," what standard are you referrring to?

A: This is a very good question, becuase there are many different sets of organic standards throughout the world. Our guidelines for "organic" are those spelled out by the USDA National Organic Program, a national, enforcable set of laws governing organic products in the United States. Basically these standards state that food items labelled organic must be grown without synthetic chemical pesticides, herbacides, or fertilizer, in soil that has been free from such chemicals for at least 3 years. In addition, no other toxic substances may be used as fertilizer such as sweage sludge or radioactive waste, and no chemicals may be used in the processing of organic ingredients, or used near the storage area (insect killers, rat poison, chemical cleaners, and the like). Also, no Genectically Modified Organisms (GMO's) are allowed. Seven Bridges is certified organic by California Certified Organic Farmers as a handler and retailer of organic products, which means we are required to adhere to these standards (and be able to verify that our suppliers adhere to the same standards) in order to sell products labelled as organic.

 

[zoebisch01]

Pre-comment buffer: I'm not being argumentative, just curious!

I don't understand your thoughts that if an item is shipped or transported it ceases to meet your definition of 'organic'. Let's be idealistic for a second and say that a farm in New Zealand makes 'organic' hops that meet your standard of the definition of the word. They package them up nicely, and ship them via jet to California. They sit in their nice little sealed package for a bit until I order them. They then jump into a UPS van and trek across the country. If I understand you correctly, you would not consider these hops organic once they got to my home near Boston, Mass. I don't get it!

Sure, I'd like to be able to buy from a local farm with 20+ varieties of hops, but that is simply not a realistic possibility.

Yes and no

What I am truly getting at is that Organic has come so far from the heart of the philosophy that in many (not all) cases the growers have said "What do we need to do to satisfy the bare minimum requirements to be certified Organic?" You see the open door, I am sure. The whole Organic movement was established by people (like Rodale, Sir Albert Howard...etc) who were more along the idealism of "How can I grow the best produce to be consumed locally, while at the same time building the environment instead of depleting it".

It meets the label, but I don't consider it 'Organic'. Would I still buy them? Sure.
In some cases you might find a superior product. Then again, you might find an inferior one. I guess my whole point in all of this is to really expose another layer that isn't commonly talked about with Organic goods. It gives the illusion of being better when in some cases it isn't.

 

[abracadabra]

Cynicism abounds!!!!

.[/I]

You got that right.

Here's the problem as I see it.

The FDA imposes fines so small in comparison to the profits that can be made there is no disincentive to cheating. Just the opposite.

So how do you really know what you are getting?

That's where I go by taste like you were saying about the hops if I can taste a difference then the price may be worth it to me.

 

[zoebisch01]

That's where I go by taste like you were saying about the hops if I can taste a difference then the price may be worth it to me.

Exactly! That is also at the heart of what I am saying...don't be quick to think it is better because it is Organic! Let your taster decide, and don't worry about the rest (in other words don't be prejudiced because you paid more for the organic product). . I just want to expose the illusion going on with the industry.

 

[Fiery Sword]

I completely see your point - and you BOTH <edit> obviously are extremely well informed on the issue. I think a lot of the times it's pretty easy to 'smell a rat' when it comes to things like these......like seeing 'Organic' Pop Tarts or something. .....It has more or less become a marketing idea for many large companies as opposed to a quality idea. I can totally see that.

I guess it's all about research and trust. It's hard to factor in being lied to when choosing to purchase something like organic products - and this could be a large cause for being skeptical of the entire 'industry'.

I guess I'm still safe, though, as I brew organic simply due to quality of ingredients, and view any potential envorinments benefit as a fringe bonus. Perhaps this is missing the issue in a way, or perhaps it''s being aware of the potential mis-use of the issue.

 

[Cheesefood]

I smell hippies. Hippies so stinky I can smell them through the internet. Hippies...they're coming closer. I can hear their drum circles. What? You want me to buy some heady glass off you? No...get away hippie! Take your veggie burrito with you. I don't want a goodball!

 

[zoebisch01]

I smell hippies. Hippies so stinky I can smell them through the internet. Hippies...they're coming closer. I can hear their drum circles. What? You want me to buy some heady glass off you? No...get away hippie! Take your veggie burrito with you. I don't want a goodball!

Roflmao.

I do actually work with ex-hippies lol. :fro:

 

[user 574]

 

[roggae]

I smell hippies. Hippies so stinky I can smell them through the internet. Hippies...they're coming closer. I can hear their drum circles. What? You want me to buy some heady glass off you? No...get away hippie! Take your veggie burrito with you. I don't want a goodball!

this post made me laugh. my goo-balls are extra heady and my veggie burritos are extra veggie!! we have a word for those folks: wookies.

 

[zoebisch01]

Hey man, it's coming. They feed cows their own kind, why not peeps? . Just a few more adjustments to the populations tasters and we are one step closer hehe.

LONG LIVE THE HOMEBREW REVOLUTION!!!!

 

[Fiery Sword]

...Anyone wanna play some hackeysack? Maybe frisbee?

 

[abracadabra]

I I brew organic simply due to quality of ingredients, and view any potential envorinments benefit as a fringe bonus. .

That's a fantastic reason. I can't wait to try the hops from the site you posted

 

[Fiery Sword]

That's a fantastic reason. I can't wait to try the hops from the site you posted

I actually just ordered some whole Saaz and Perle plus a bunch of their pellet Hallertauer Mittlefrueh (one of my staples) this morning. Their New Zeleand Pacific Gems (16% alpha acids!!!!) are f*ing awesome for bittering - and I haven't found them anywhere else.

 

[nmcabee]

I brew organic beer from www.breworganic.com. The company's name is seven bridges cooperative. They are the only organic brewing supply I've found. I brew their beers and they taste incredible. I think the flavor is the same you just have to ask yourself what are the grains, the cotton strain bag, and hops and everything else grown in.

 

[Cheesefood]

this post made me laugh. my goo-balls are extra heady and my veggie burritos are extra veggie!! we have a word for those folks: wookies.

The word I always used was "Unsanitary". Seriously - how dirty were some of the couples that walked around selling food?

Would you want those people working at McDonalds? What are the chances that they used a hairnet or plastic gloves when preparing food?

 

[zoebisch01]

The word I always used was "Unsanitary". Seriously - how dirty were some of the couples that walked around selling food?

Would you want those people working at McDonalds? What are the chances that they used a hairnet or plastic gloves when preparing food?

As an aside, my friends mom knew many hippies growing up. From her experience they were some of the nastiest (attitude wise), dirtiest, and careless people she knew. That was her experience anyways. Nothing against hippies myself, I just think that part of the modern idea of 'hippie' doesn't really suggest that. Interestingly...for a little trivia...the word 'hip' was supposedly derived from the practice of laying on one's side or 'hip' when spending time in an opium den. From there the word evolved into a reference of being a part of that culture as the phrase went "Are you hip?". The word 'hippie' is reportedly derived from 'hip'.

 

[Fiery Sword]

The hippie topic is one where is show my true inner conflict: I hate hippies. Yet many (more consevative-type) friends I know think I am one.....or at least some sort of nuvo-mongoloid hippie. I say sucks to them.

 

[nickwc5]

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr02-08-07.mp3

Listen to that Basic Brewing Interview with breworganic.com to see why you should brew organic.

 

[kvh]

Sorry to chime in a couple days late folks -

It's been stated in numerous research studies that locally grown food is better for the environment than organic that is flown in from ... well, however far away it needs to be for it to be flown in. Hence the interest lately in the 50, 100, 200, and 500 mile diets - eating food produced within a local enough area to minimize the co2 emissions of transporting it farther than necessary.

This being said, I eat organically produced food when I can (however falulty the system may be in places), and locally grown veggies from the farmers market when possible. Additionally, my garden this summer should provide for at least half of my summer vegetable intake... I hope anyway.

But being on the east coast, I wasn't thrilled at the thought of ordering from california and having it sit on a truck or in a plane all the way across the country.

A quick google search brought me to www.foothillhops.com, a part-time farmer and full time electrician living in upstate NY who grows and sells organic hops. He's only a few hundred miles from me, and sells them already vacuum sealed in 4oz or 1lb packages, shipped on ice.

I understand it doesn't meet all of your brewing needs, and he doesn't carry EVERY hop ever made, but it's nice to see that a region of the country which originally flourished in the hop industry is slowly getting back into the business.

A quick extra note as well.... If you're ordering now--and I can't tell you if he still has any in stock this late in the season--ask him about his hills of hops which are being raised organically, but have not yet been certified. There is apparently a 7 year waiting period from when pesticides were last used on a field before that space can be called organic. He raises these hops with the same pesticide free methods, but sells them for a discount.

My freezer is overflowing with this past years' harvest (I bought way too much) but they are both delicious in beer, and easy on my conscience.

kvh

 

[IHA-Brew]

Quite the heated discussion in parts of this thread, not to mention quite a few off topic forays. Here's my opinion on the matter: go ahead and brew organic, at least brew a batch just to say that you have and you can decide for yourself if its what you want. Will it taste better? Probably not. Both organic and non-organic ingredients that are fresh and combined using good brewing techniques and healthy yeast and good sanitation to keep out the bad bugs will produce equally good beers. Wollavers, Butte Creek, and Peak Organic offer good commercial examples of organic beer for you to try if you don't feel like brewing your own batch but you want to see what all the buzz is about. Benefits of organic farming - no pesticides, fertilizers etc to leach into the ground water which can cause farther reaching damage than what is done in the immediate area - maintains the natural nutrients in the soil rather than stripping them away and thus requiring more fertilizer as in conventional farming - healthier for farm workers since they are not exposed to toxic chemicals - etc, etc, etc. As for the cynical view that organic farmers can cheat and get away with little more than a slap on the wrist I have this to say - although the fines may be small if word gets out that a company is cheating, people who are truly interested in buying organic will stop buying from them and that farm will not be able to sell as much product. Also, it has been my experience that people who adhere to organic farming principals do it because they want to for reasons other than jacking up their prices. Again, all this is just MHO and like I said, try an organic brew or try brewing your own batch and make your own decision. And like a wise man once said, "Relax. Don't Worry. Have a Homebrew!"