Organic Brewing

[roggae]

After listening to james spencer's podcast on organic brewing i am wondering if it is worth it? has anyone else tried brewing an organic brew? i'm thinking, since i am an organic gardener. makes sense to me....

 

[Beermaker]

But then your beer farts wont stink. Why bother?

 

[Orfy]

After listening to james spencer's podcast on organic brewing i am wondering if it is worth it? has anyone else tried brewing an organic brew? i'm thinking, since i am an organic gardener. makes sense to me....

If you really want to then do.
But you'll be limiting your supplier options, your ingredients available, drastically increasing your cost, probably decreasing your yield, probably not increasing the quality of the Ale, Blah, blah, blah.
But if it's important to you then go for it.

I care about quality food and the environment but this is not for me.

 

[roggae]

But then your beer farts wont stink. Why bother?

not exactly sure what this is supposed to mean

 

[Desert_Sky]

IMHO its not even worth it. I had a discussion with my instructor on that the other night. Sure, it can be just another gimmick to sell your beer, but theres not much more in quality and taste if any at all.

and look here. CHeck out the prices of the organic malts compared to the regular "top shelf" ****.

http://www.breworganic.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=215

I see it as paying almost double. So not worth it for me.

 

[roggae]

my concern is obviously cost. its gonna taste good i know that. its the same way with gardening, but gardening is a much less expensive hobby(at least the way i do it)....thanks for the info folks!

 

[Orfy]

No. I disagree, I don't think it will taste better.

Organic food does not taste better than food grown in the same condition as the organic food. The only reason Organ is perceived to be better is because people compare it with mass produced forced grown food. I'm not saying organic isn't better for other reasons but it does not make the food taste better.
It like comparing Budpisser and a craft beer. Nothing like the same.
But an Organic craft beer and a normal craft beer will have no clear difference in quality and taste if the same ingredients and methods are used.
I grow my own food and it is not organic. I used weed killer last year and slug pellets so I can't call it organic but it is grown with care and I bet it tastes better than mass produce organic produce.

All I can say is do not believe the marketing.

 

[roggae]

No. I disagree, I don't think it will taste better.

Organic food does not taste better than food grown in the same condition as the organic food. The only reason Organ is perceived to be better is because people compare it with mass produced forced grown food. I'm not saying organic isn't better for other reasons but it does not make the food taste better.
It like comparing Budpisser and a craft beer. Nothing like the same.
But an Organic craft beer and a normal craft beer will have no clear difference in quality and taste if the same ingredients and methods are used.
I grow my own food and it is not organic. I used weed killer last year and slug pellets so I can't call it organic but it is grown with care and I bet it tastes better than mass produce organic produce.

All I can say is do not believe the marketing.

that is like, an opinion, man...

 

[Desert_Sky]

that is like, an opinion, man...

which part are you referring to?

 

[Orfy]

What's an opinion?

The bit about none organic food can taste better than organic?
The bit about not believing the Organic food industries marketing?
The bit about that if you grow food using the same methods as organic production but none organically it will probably be better?
The bit about an organic craft beer will not taste any better than a non organic beer produced by the same methods.

I'd say that is facts rather than opinions.
But were all entitled to our opinions.

I'm not trying to change yours, just stating mine.

 

[Desert_Sky]

What's an opinion?

The bit about none organic food can taste better than organic?
The bit about not believing the Organic food industries marketing?
The bit about that if you grow food using the same methods as organic production but none organically it will probably be better?
The bit about an organic craft beer will not taste any better than a non organic beer produced by the same methods.

I'd say that is facts rather than opinions.
But were all entitled to our opinions.

I'm not trying to change yours, just stating mine.

Im with him on this one
well ok taste is mostly an opinion, yes. But on a whole the majority of people will agree that theres no difference in taste.

And Im just going to leave the bud and craft beer comparison statement alone....for now

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

I don't think there's very much opinion in orfy's statement. There's just an understanding of what organic is an what it means.

In order to appreciate what organic food offers, you have to first understand what is used in the process of growing/cultivating non-organic foods. In other words, you need to understand the state of the art of growing food.

Then you can look at what organic labels strip away from that process and what they replace it with. You can then form a knowledgeable opinion.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure the smog I ingest living in the city, the second hand smoke, the high-fructose corn syrup from the occasional soda, the butter that I cook with, etc etc etc will all have a much greater impact on my health than the trace amounts of pesticides in non-organic foods.

If it makes you feel better, if you think it makes you a healthier person, or will allow you to live longer (and if that's important to you), then I say good on you. But I'm not convinced that organic foods are the best use of the money that I am willing to devote to maintenaning my own long term health. I think I'd rather spend that money on a health club membership.

But then, if you can afford both, then that's cool. But then don't forget to add in the additional effort it takes to shop organic. How much more time? How much farther do you have to go to get ingredients? What's the point of living longer if it takes more time out of your life to do it? Simplicity has its benefits too- that's why a lot of people drink over-sweetened soda pop that makes me gag- because it's right there in front of them and requires no effort on their part.


After the health issues, and the time issues, there's also the variety issues. How many varieties of organic apple will your store carry? How many types of organic juice? Again, if the variety is there, then that's great, but I wouldn't know where to find organic garlic, parsely, eggplant, etc. Seems like it'd be a much easier approach if you never expanded your pallate to anything more interesting than a carrot or a tomato. It's kind of like the free range foods. It sounds great in theory. Everybody wants to buy it... until they see that it's 7 times more expensive and there isn't as much variety in size. Money talks and drowns out the opinions of most people when it comes to determining what they really want.

 

[roggae]

What's an opinion?

The bit about none organic food can taste better than organic?

factually, this is an opinion. i'd bet if you ate hydro-chemi grown lettuce that was grown in a sterile hydro outfit, you'd taste a difference from an organic product. which one is better is an opinion, but i'm not going to get into an argument on a forum about that.

i'd love to go organic and i do believe the 'marketing.' it's just too much $$ to go completely orgo.

 

[Desert_Sky]

factually, this is an opinion. i'd bet if you ate hydro-chemi grown lettuce that was grown in a sterile hydro outfit, you'd taste a difference from an organic product. which one is better is an opinion, but i'm not going to get into an argument on a forum about that.

i'd love to go organic and i do believe the 'marketing.' it's just too much $$ to go completely orgo.

well lets try and stay on topic. Organic malted barley....not organic lettuce. I seriously doubt you will tell a difference in a finished beer.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

well lets try and stay on topic. Organic malted barley....not organic lettuce. I seriously doubt you will tell a difference in a finished beer.

At least not with standard homebrew practices. If you had a BMC setup with dead spot-on repeatable systems, then maayyybe.

 

[Fiery Sword]

I brew organic sometimes, others not. W/O getting into the personal pros and cons, I have a slightly different reason - and it has a lot to do with the specific web page someone linked earlier in this thread - www.breworganic.com . I've found that this place, specifically, has better hops and malts than other internet, and local, stores. Maybe not because they are simply organic, but they are noticeable fresher, and produce noticeably better beers. Maybe they stock less than the 'big guys' like Austin or MoreBeer, maybe it's where they get it, maybe it's the organic part, maybe it's not. But I've done side-by-side recipes and the breworganic.com ones have always come out better. And that, sometimes, makes it definitely worth spending more money to me.

Regarding taking someone else's advice on organic, I don't see how that helps you. Make some organic beer, try to decide for yourself if you think it's better or not. Simply echoing a mentor's advice is not a basis for forming an accurate opinion.

all that being said, I think orfy's summary is 100% accurate.

 

[roggae]

wow, this thread is taking some heat. i was just wondering about peoples thoughts on organic brewing. i did not mean to get into an interweb debate with anyone. i totally agree that FOR ME organic is not the way to go due to cost. i also agree i have never had a beer that was BETTER because it was brewed with organic ingredients.

 

[Orfy]

factually, this is an opinion.

Sorry that is a fact.

Non organic food can (and often does) taste better than organic.
The food I grow is none organic and it tastes better than the organic food I buy. I don't over water, if feed organic fertiliser but not over feeding. I have a long growing season.

My food does taste better than the organic food. Fact.
I know there is a difference between force grown food and non force grown organic but I stated that the taste difference can only be compared on products grown with the same methods organically or not. That's why I used the budpisser analogy. Organic food can be force grown and will taste worse than non organically grown with traditional methods.
Don't think you need to defend organic products. I know the facts and have based my opinions on them and you'll not change my mind. I'm not trying to change yours and don't want to.

I could go into more detail on this and show you more facts on why "Organic" can be a con and is not always to be taken at face value and as an official stamp on quality but as I said, I know what I know and don't really feel the need to educate those who have made their minds up and don't really want to put further time or effort into doings so.

I am passionate about quality foods and do not listen to the marketing industry and make my own mind up. So much so I am over 50% self sufficient on the food I eat and am trying to increase it by any method I can.

 

[Sir Humpsalot]

Well, orfy. I'll listen to fiery_sword on the matter of hops. Afterall, those can be very sensitive products for numerous reasons. Like you say, I won't say they are strictly better because they are organic, but I'll listen to anyone who wants to tell me where I can find the freshest hops.

 

[olllllo]

Every organic thread has ended up being closed. Debate nicely. Try to refrain from making this a one-on-one or many-on-one affair and perhaps some new or better information for all will result.


or just go EAC balls out.

 

[roggae]

Sorry that is a fact.

Non organic food can taste better than organic.
The food I grow is none organic and it tastes better than the organic food I buy. I don't over water, if feed organic fertiliser but not over feeding. I have a long growing season.

My food does taste better than the organic food. Fact.
I know there is a difference between force grown food and non force grown organic but I stated that the taste difference can only be compared on products grown with the same methods organically or not. That's why I used the budpisser analogy. Organic food can be force grown and will taste worse than non organically grown with traditional methods.
Don't think you need to defend organic products. I know the facts and have based my opinions on them and you'll not change my mind. I'm not trying to change yours and don't want to.

I am passionate about quality foods and do not listen to the marketing industry and make my own mind up. So much so I am over 50% self sufficient on the food I eat and am trying to increase it by any method I can.

wow orfy, i did not mean to upset you so. i was just stating that as far as i see it, taste is subjective, but if you have a method to statistically prove your point with emperical evidence then i am sorry. know that i had no intentions of provoking an argument.

 

[Orfy]

roggae,

I'm cool.
I'm not upset or arguing.

It's cool that you are into the organic thing and good luck to you. I actually think that some aspects of it are very, very important.

But as I say I am passionate about good food so much so I am really trying to get away from the over priced substandard commercial mass market offerings.
Please don't ever let my strong feelings make you think that you should not express you views or state that facts as you see them.

If you have proof that I am wrong in what I'd say then I'd consider changing my point of view and take on the facts but I don't think you'll be able to.

Can't remember the person who said it but a quote I like is...
"I may not agree with your views but I defend to death your right to express them"
Something like that anyway.

 

[roggae]

i'm not really into the organic thing, but i was wondering what everyone else thought about it. got the jest of it.

 

[Desert_Sky]

whats a good example of an organic beer? Im going to pick up a sixer tonight for the hell of it.

 

[roggae]

whats a good example of an organic beer? Im going to pick up a sixer tonight for the hell of it.

i think wolaver makes an organic beer or two.

 

[Orfy]

I drink the Whycwood Breweries Circle master. Sold as Scarecrow in the USA. I also pick up one or two others from time to time.

The Circle Master stands guardian over the golden fields of ripening wheat, hops and barley, the master of the harvest. With an owl on his shoulder for wisdom and a fox by his side for cunning, he orchestrates the elements and charms the summer breeze into a delightful melody that echoes through time. He asks for nothing and gives the same in return, simply allowing Mother Nature to perform her task unhindered. With a wry smile and more than a hint of mischief in the making, as the wheels of time are etched onto the glorious landscape he knowingly surveys all before him. The malevolent crows may circle overhead, but they too know that they are but a small part of a far grander scheme...
Circle Master Tasting Note

Circle Master is an organic golden pale ale at 4.7% ABV.
Circle Master is brewed using a unique blend of Plumage Archer Barley Malt, organically grown for us under the auspices of the Prince of Wales Duchy Estate in Gloucestershire. Whole leaf target hops, naturally grown in a single garden in Kent, are added to create a beer of exceptional taste and character. The Circle Master conducts a melody of refreshing citrus and delightful malt flavour, rounded off with a spicy bittersweet finish.

 

[zoebisch01]

Ok to settle the debate....hopefully...I can offer some insight. I looked into Organic malt a while back, just to see if it was worth it. The conclusion I have come to as a gardener who follows the principles of 'Organic' gardening....meaning I practice soil building principles, lliterally use no pesticides and most importantly am growing and eating my produce (ie local). That is the heart of what Organic gardening is or really, should be. The local part is the key. Organic simply aint Organic once it is not local...imo. Anyways to make a long story short, Organic has become a catch phrase so that producers can make more money. If you buy Organic food, that is a personal choice but be informed that it is really very similar to the non-organic label in many ways. Some of the 'acceptable' items used in 'Organic' farming are scary in their own right. Don't get me wrong, I am completely for the principles of 'Organic' growing, my point is that the definition has been skewed from the original philosophy.

However, my main concern was with genetically modified products. When you take a plant cell (this is one of the methods anyhow) and subject it to radiation to see what you get or if you splice stuff into the plant genes (don't get me started), I personally don't want anything to do with it if I can help it. From what I found, Barley has not yet been introduced (at least commercially) to genetic modifications...meaning the malt is not genetically modified. I could go on and on for hours with this subject. It goes way deeper than just using no synthesized pesticides/herbicides/fertilizers....way way deeper.

 

[Mike B]

What's an opinion?

The bit about none organic food can taste better than organic?
The bit about not believing the Organic food industries marketing?
The bit about that if you grow food using the same methods as organic production but none organically it will probably be better?
The bit about an organic craft beer will not taste any better than a non organic beer produced by the same methods.

I'd say that is facts rather than opinions.
But were all entitled to our opinions.

I'm not trying to change yours, just stating mine.

a little bit , but . . .

I don't want to get involved in the larger argument (don't really care), but it should be said that these are ALL opinions, not facts. That is to say, they can't really be proven or disproven.

Taste is subjective. Can you say that it's a fact that Pepsi tastes better than Coke? No, that's an opinion.

 

[WOP31]

I am just wondering what you would use to sanitize and cleen your equipment with in order to do an organic brew. Because wouldn't one have to take that into consideration in order to call it organic. I only ask because i don't know I am not trying to instagate anything. Thanks

Cheers

 

[roggae]

a little bit , but . . .

I don't want to get involved in the larger argument (don't really care), but it should be said that these are ALL opinions, not facts. That is to say, they can't really be proven or disproven.

Taste is subjective. Can you say that it's a fact that Pepsi tastes better than Coke? No, that's an opinion.

totally.........

 

[Fiery Sword]

I am just wondering what you would use to sanitize and cleen your equipment with in order to do an organic brew. Because wouldn't one have to take that into consideration in order to call it organic. I only ask because i don't know I am not trying to instagate anything. Thanks

Nice curveball!!! Now, having said that I do occasionally brew with organic ingredients might make one think I'd have an answer to this, but I don't. I am in it for the freshness and quality of the ingradients, and as I've stated I think breworganic.com are tops in that catagory. I use water and b-brite to clean, and an iodine solution to sterilize. The iodine technically 'gasses' off the glass (plastic, for you better bottlers ) as it dries so I'd argue that none of that stuff gets 'into' the beer. By then, all the b-brite is washed away also. I supposed I'd be guilty of not using an organic process, but I am pretty sure all the ingredients in the beer would be organic.......and I'm not sure how much that counts to people who care about the label or not!!!!

Seriously though, not from an organic perspective. If you aren't offended or turned off by the above-average $ I'd highly suggest trying a kit from breworganic.com .

 

[abracadabra]

woops sorry quoted the wrong guy


Iodine is a natural compound. Whether or not it would constitute organic or inorganic I don't know.

Very interesting tread.

I like to support substanable framing practices where it makes sense or where I can taste a difference. So I was very interested in fiery sword comments

 

[roggae]

the reason tis whole thread started is because i heard a podcast about it.

here is a link to that podcast:

February 8, 2007 - Brewing Organic
Amelia Slayton from Seven Bridges Cooperative in Santa Cruz, California tells us about brewing with organic ingredients and why we should try it.

http://www.basicbrewing.com/radio/

anyway i was thinking of brewing a HUGE IIPA organically...any thoughts?

 

[abracadabra]

the reason tis whole thread started is because i heard a podcast about it.

here is a link to that podcast:

February 8, 2007 - Brewing Organic
Amelia Slayton from Seven Bridges Cooperative in Santa Cruz, California tells us about brewing with organic ingredients and why we should try it.

http://www.basicbrewing.com/radio/

anyway i was thinking of brewing a HUGE IIPA organically...any thoughts?

Why? taste, health reasons, environmental concern

All of the above

Just wondering what your reason is as I was interested too. Mainly because I had been led to believe that farmers use a very large amount of pesticides on grains.

 

[roggae]

Why? taste, health reasons, environmental concern

All of the above

Just wondering what your reason is as I was interested too. Mainly because I had been led to believe that farmers use a very large amount of pesticides on grains.

i just think it is a god idea to be able to tell people where every component in your beer came from and how it was grown/harvested. i'm a neo-hippie!:rockin:

 

[zoebisch01]

i just think it is a god idea to be able to tell people where every component in your beer came from and how it was grown/harvested. i'm a neo-hippie!:rockin:

See that is the problem in a nutshell, roggae. The entire 'Organic' movement has become little more than a commercial movement. Most of what is sold in stores is so far from the true philosophy of 'Organic' it is pathetic. I agree with your sentiment, but unfortunately 'Organic' has become a means to bolster product cost. I don't consider a carrot grown in complete monoculture, that travels 2,000 miles before it reaches the consumer Organic. About the only thing it really assures you is that it has not been genetically modified. Don't believe for a minute they won't dowse a field with Pyrethrin if they need to.

 

[abracadabra]

There was a fantastic piece in the Wall St. Journal 1/16/07 about where buying organic made sense and where it did not. I'd post it but I'm afraid the B------d's would sue me for copyright infringement. They'll sell it for some absurd price.

Anyhow it did not mention grain products so it's not really relevant to this tread.

Here's how I see it.
Taste: a matter of personnal preference
Health concerns: Who knows? With pesticide and commercial fertilizer made from petro chemicals I'm sure they use as little as possible simply because of $
Enviromental concern: That's a matter of conscience

 

[Fiery Sword]

...that travels 2,000 miles before it reaches the consumer Organic.

Pre-comment buffer: I'm not being argumentative, just curious!

I don't understand your thoughts that if an item is shipped or transported it ceases to meet your definition of 'organic'. Let's be idealistic for a second and say that a farm in New Zealand makes 'organic' hops that meet your standard of the definition of the word. They package them up nicely, and ship them via jet to California. They sit in their nice little sealed package for a bit until I order them. They then jump into a UPS van and trek across the country. If I understand you correctly, you would not consider these hops organic once they got to my home near Boston, Mass. I don't get it!

Sure, I'd like to be able to buy from a local farm with 20+ varieties of hops, but that is simply not a realistic possibility.

 

[abracadabra]

. The entire 'Organic' movement has become little more than a commercial movement. .

I think zoe is right especially with the big guys now getting in on the action.

I believe that so called organic food coming from Con-Agra or ADM is just a marketing ploy and trust them about as much as "organic" produce from Mexico
where all that's required is greasing the right palms.

 

[zoebisch01]

There was a fantastic piece in the Wall St. Journal 1/16/07 about where buying organic made sense and where it did not. I'd post it but I'm afraid the B------d's would sue me for copyright infringement. They'll sell it for some absurd price.

Enviromental concern: That's a matter of conscience

The one thing that many consumers fail to realize is that the impact to the Environment is marginal when compared with modern non-organic production. The reason for this is that there really is little difference between the mechanized production, harvest, and transportation of both types and furthermore there are many 'certified' chemicals and amendments that are probably just as harmful to the environment. The whole thing is little more than a sham, seriously. Buying organic is only truly effective when you do so locally from local growers. The regulations and costs have imposed a burden on small growers, making it more difficult to compete with the big guys...and round and round it goes...


Anyways, when it comes to malted barley, the biggest advantage to obtaining organically produced malt is it would ensure non-genetically modified barley. If my understanding is correct there is currently no GE barley grown. This is the main reason I decided not to go with Organic base malt.