Organic Brewing

[Cheesefood]

Here's my thought on organics:

If I had ringworm, I'd put a cream on it.
When I get a cut, I put neosporen on it to fight any infection.
When I'm sick, I take antibiotics.
If I had crabs, I'd blame Orpheus and get that special comb.

All these things make me healthy and strong. Why wouldn't I want food that was both healthy and strong? Raising food organically is sort of like taking the Christ Scientist view on gardening.

 

[Desert_Sky]

just a little FYI I found out last night....

I guess in June you can no longer use bulk CO2 and still call your beer organic. Gotta go naturally carbed or nothing at all.


now I dont know if this still covers serving CO2 or not

 

[zoebisch01]

Interesting. One more example of wierdness. I never knew there was a difference between CO2 and CO2.

 

[ski36t]

Here's my thought on organics:

If I had ringworm, I'd put a cream on it.
When I get a cut, I put neosporen on it to fight any infection.
When I'm sick, I take antibiotics.
If I had crabs, I'd blame Orpheus and get that special comb.

All these things make me healthy and strong. Why wouldn't I want food that was both healthy and strong? Raising food organically is sort of like taking the Christ Scientist view on gardening.

Amen

and to comment on the GMO thing way back in the thread.... we have been doing it since we figured out how to plant stuff in the ground and then eat it. The only difference is we can do it a lot quicker now. I am just saying...don't be so closed minded about a product that can do marvelous things if you give it a chance.
Do less worrying and more drinking )

 

[zoebisch01]

Amen

and to comment on the GMO thing way back in the thread.... we have been doing it since we figured out how to plant stuff in the ground and then eat it. The only difference is we can do it a lot quicker now. I am just saying...don't be so closed minded about a product that can do marvelous things if you give it a chance.
Do less worrying and more drinking )

Sorry man but we haven't. What we have been doing is genetic selection based on various properties that we like in a plant and want to encourage. We have not been hitting plants with radiation or gene splicing until somewhere in the 40's or 50's (radiation) and a later for the splicing. This is different. There are some serious issues related to the current GMO food that stretch far beyond just potential health problems (FDA has recalled stuff unfit for human consumption) including threatening open pollinated seed, and the encouragement of the liberal use of herbcides to name a few.

 

[abracadabra]

I agree with Zoe selective breeding is completely different than splicing a gene from an animal onto the gene of a plant. And other such mutations

While I would say that not all genetic mutation is bad. It most certainly is not all good either.

 

[fifelee]

I can’t believe I missed this organics thread as I have some personal info which I never hear in the media. My father and I farm barley (which is sadly sold to Anheuser Busch) and wheat. We looked into organic for about two seconds until we realized it is not nearly as great as people think. Ironically the people who get excited about organics are often the same people who say they care more about hunger, poverty, and the environment (sorry for injecting politics). While I sympathize with what organic proponents are trying to do in regards to health, I don’t think their concerns apply to grains. Plus there are some very serious environmental downsides to organic that are rarely mentioned.

I do somewhat understand, though I don't necessarily agree, the organic view when it comes to fruits and vegetables. These items often get sprayed directly with chemicals. But when it comes to grains, they are typically only sprayed with herbicides in the plants infancy long before the seed is even formed and not at all if the farmer had good weed control before planting. Organic lovers often mention pesticides, but I can’t even remember the last time we sprayed pesticides on grain fields.

From the vantage point of a farmer, I love organic because it takes land and makes it much less productive. The organic grain farmers around us produce about half the yield. This decreases the food supply and increases prices (Yippy). Now this is great for the farmer, but bad for the consumer especially the poor who struggle to afford food. Another side effect of less productive organic land is that more land has to be broken up from its "natural" state to grow the same amount of food. Yes, organic eaters cause more land to be harmed. Largely because of the high grain prices we are about to break up 700 acres that are currently in grass.

There’s more…to control weeds organic farmers have to go back to the old days of plowing a field. This drastically increases land erosion often into river and streams. I heard somewhere that the recent drought was just as bad as the dust bowl of the 1930's. The reason topsoil didn't blow away and the country didn't starve this time was because of newer farming practices, practices that organic farmers can't use.

In addition to erosion, plowing a field burns vastly more fossil fuels than the alternative. No need to add any final comments, you get the significance of an "earth loving" organic eating environmentalist consuming a product that uses vastly more fossil fuels.

My information mostly applies to grains but I assume some of the same logic can be applied to hops and most other foods. I hope it doesn’t seem like I am attacking organic supporters, as I am a strong believer in people doing whatever makes them happy. But I also think there is a lot of disinformation out there. I just want to add my 2cents and thank all the organic eaters for raising the grain prices. Sorry for the long post.

 

[ski36t]

Sorry man but we haven't. What we have been doing is genetic selection based on various properties that we like in a plant and want to encourage. We have not been hitting plants with radiation or gene splicing until somewhere in the 40's or 50's (radiation) and a later for the splicing. This is different. There are some serious issues related to the current GMO food that stretch far beyond just potential health problems (FDA has recalled stuff unfit for human consumption) including threatening open pollinated seed, and the encouragement of the liberal use of herbcides to name a few.

I will only comment one more time because this is well beyond the scope of this forum and this thread. I completely recognize that there are potential problems with the GMOs and without good science and reasonable testing problems could develop. I guess I am just not as fearful as the rest of you guys.

Genetic recombination is basically gene splicing...genes from one chromosome are moved to another, deleted, doubled, changed. And all that occurs naturally. If the mutation is to great the plant dies. Same in the GMO's. Radiation constantly effects plants in nature and they develop all kinds of ways to repair their DNA.

Two more things to say.
1. the problem comes when we put in DNA that creates enzymes that make toxic chemicals. The products of these enzymes which usually enhance the characteristics of the plant may be harmful to use. This is a problem and it is something researchers think about.

2. As long as there are no strange and untested chemicals being produced (they know exactly what they are making because they know what enzyme they are making) then the new DNA and the new protein pose not threat.
with a little basic digestion science you can see that the original DNA and proteins are destroyed before they entire the part of your body where they can do harm.
strange foreign DNA-->nucleic acids (harmless)-->absorption
strange weird funky protein or enzyme---> amino acids (harmless)--> absorption
our body knows better than to absorb these things in there existing condition

there will always be what-ifs...but i think as brewers we have to have the midset to overcome what if I did this wrong, what it my beer doesn't taste good, what are those crazy yeast doing in my beer that could give off all kinds of bad things, and try the final outcome because it may be just fine, and it may even be better than we could have ever expected.

cheers

 

[zoebisch01]

While I sympathize with what organic proponents are trying to do in regards to health, I don’t think their concerns apply to grains. Plus there are some very serious environmental downsides to organic that are rarely mentioned.

In addition to erosion, plowing a field burns vastly more fossil fuels than the alternative. No need to add any final comments, you get the significance of an "earth loving" organic eating environmentalist consuming a product that uses vastly more fossil fuels.

That was my point in all of this. The true philosophy of what Organic means was swallowed up by those looking to make more money riding the label. I have mentioned in this thread that some of the 'acceptable' practices are in some instances far more harmful than 'non-acceptable' ones. The idea of Organic was never supposed to be more than a revolution of small local producers using the simplest methods that not only nourish the soil, but by growing a plethora of different crops that help buffer disease and increase diversity in the local ecosystem. Make it big, distant and try to find as many loopholes in the rules and you get what you describe. Nothing more than overpriced food that is not doing much of anything for the environment and may in fact be harming it more.

Sorry to have taken everyone on a seemingly radical journey, but the concept of Organic brewing and what that really means cannot be seperated from the philosophy of what it means to grow Organically, and hence the roller coaster ride. I hope I haven't rattled anybody's cage!

 

[zoebisch01]

I will only comment one more time because this is well beyond the scope of this forum and this thread. I completely recognize that there are potential problems with the GMOs and without good science and reasonable testing problems could develop. I guess I am just not as fearful as the rest of you guys.

Agreed, but I don't think it is as much fear as it is reality. Just because we can doesn't always mean we necessarily should.

I think we have beaten the topic to death anyways.

I think the thread should R.I.P

 

[abracadabra]

I. My father and I farm barley (which is sadly sold to Anheuser Busch) and wheat. post.

great post! Thanks

Really good to hear from someone in the business.

I had always heard that grain farmers used an extremely high amount of pesticide and herbicide.

Glad to know that's not the case

 

[Pumbaa]

For beer to be orgainc wouldnt the water use have to be untreated in any way as well? No city water, do distilled water, no softened water . . . just straight from the well or river of your choice?

 

[fifelee]

great post! Thanks

Really good to hear from someone in the business.

I had always heard that grain farmers used an extremely high amount of pesticide and herbicide.

Glad to know that's not the case

Thanks. A "high amount' is somewhat subjective. While I don’t think we use a lot of herbicide others may think we do, but I can guarantee you that we use as little as possible (farmer are very cheap). Plus there are some great technologies coming out that will make it easier to spot spray field (only spray weeds and not bare dirt).