Options to avoid a dry hop - increase whirlpool/flameout hops?

[RyPA]

@JAReeves how does it come out this way?

I'm definitely going with the tea bag method on my next batch. I bought really strong magnets and tonight I vacuum sealed them in units small enough to fit into a muslin bag and I tested them on a corny keg. They are super strong and I do not see them having an issue holding up a wet bag of hops.

 

[Elric]

@RyPA I have used the magnet method you are looking to do with great success (though only during fermentation, i did keg to a separate vessel). It actually works well in two regards 1) as you mentioned you can drag the hops back out of the beer so that it doesn't stay in too long (or in my case I lift back out to get the hop bag out of the way of the dip tube when siphoning out). 2) the magnets help make sure you can get the hop bag completely submerged, otherwise if your magnets aren't heavy enough the hop bag can still float and not get optimal contact with your beer.

 

[bracconiere]

what about something like this?

https://www.northernbrewer.com/prod...bbn-BTr3i_70QEjULk3XAIl4iabyLAbEaApEDEALw_wcB
i see in the product description 'rocket' is bran and generic term is hopback....

found this...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2945073267...u77pLVWZgz2Er7Lewg62585AEuJVzF80aAq4ZEALw_wcB

if you had 2 kegs, and a jumper between them with a spunding valve on the other the fermentation should push the beer through the infuser? maybe?

https://www.amazon.com/BouncerMD-in...ocphy=9030226&hvtargid=pla-349829787746&psc=1
https://homebrewacademy.com/how-to-build-a-randall/

 

[JAReeves]

@JAReeves how does it come out this way?

I'm definitely going with the tea bag method on my next batch. I bought really strong magnets and tonight I vacuum sealed them in units small enough to fit into a muslin bag and I tested them on a corny keg. They are super strong and I do not see them having an issue holding up a wet bag of hops.

The Dip Hop just adds another layer of flavor to a hoppy beer, like additions at FO & WP 170F would give you different characteristics from the same hop. There are good articles on the method, but I read about it mostly in the Janish book about hops.

As for your method of moving hops in and out of the liquid in the keg, I have never done this. If I DH in the keg, I go commando and haven’t noticed any grassy flavors. But once I DH, my beer is kept at 45F if still in the fermenter or 36F if in the keg. The grassy flavor doesn’t come through even after a month or two, as far as I taste.

 

[RyPA]

@bracconiere - I think I have a plan for this batch, maybe I'll revisit that if this doesn't work. I do have 2 kegs, but there's no guarantee both will be empty at the same time.

 

[Broothru]

The magnet method would certainly reduce oxygen exposure in a brite tank type arrangement, but if you are purging your brite/secondary keg before transferring from the fermenter, the hops aroma will also be getting purged as well.

If the goal is to reduce oxygen exposure and enhance hop flavor and aroma, the best approach would probably be a Randall, a hop dropper, or a liquid post infuser for hop oil or a hop tea.

 

[RyPA]

I am fermenting and serving out of the same vessel, so it will be sealed from the time I pitch until the last pint is poured and consumed.

Here's my plan:

1. Pitch yeast
2. Secure hops to wall of keg using magnets, above wort so there is no contact.
3. Seal keg, add blow off tube for first few days of fermentation, then switch to spunding valve set to 10-12 psi.
4. When I am at the dry-hop time, slide the magnets down, so that the hops are sitting midway into the keg, saturated in liquid goodness.
5. When dry hopping is complete, slide magnets back to where they were originally, towards the top, out of the beer.
6. Put keg in kegerator and add CO2.
7. Drink beer.

 

[Bobo1898]

1. Pitch yeast
2. Secure hops to wall of keg using magnets, above wort so there is no contact.
3. Seal keg, add blow off tube for first few days of fermentation, then switch to spunding valve set to 10-12 psi.

Just thinking that doing step two that early will lose a lot of hop aroma as air and co2 is pushed out, right? Especially in those first few days of vigorous fermentation.

If you're going to go with the magnet method, would it be better to secure the hops after those first few days, but also while co2 is still being produced before fermentation ends? Then when you're ready, theoretically the O2 from the hops would be pushed out from those remaining days of fermentation, you can drop the hops in. I imagine you'll still lose some aroma from the remaining fermentation, which would have started to slow down, but maybe not as much as you would for the entirety of fermentation.

 

[RyPA]

The hops would be near the top of the keg, dry, so I don't see how they would lose anything. The goal with this plan is to have them in the vessel, completely dry, with the ability to drop them into the beer, and raise them out of the beer, without opening the fermenter.

I plan to dry hop when fermentation has slowed down a lot, so CO2 will be only be released from the spunding valve at this stage. I don't think there's much else I can do, not that worried about it to be honest. This batch is experimental for me, from a ferment and serve in the same vessel, and pressure fermentation persepective. If it doesn't work, I will try out other things.

 

[Bobo1898]

The goal with this plan is to have them in the vessel, completely dry, with the ability to drop them into the beer, and raise them out of the beer, without opening the fermenter.

Yeah, I understood what your goal was. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the hops are still exposed to the environment in the fermenter and aren't "sealed" any longer. If you're putting a blow off tube for a few days I was thinking that some of the aroma of those hops will be pushed out along with the co2 in the keg, especially at a fermentation temp that's close to 68 F.

Maybe I'm overthinking this, and you don't lose much if they're dry. Just a thought that occurred to me when thinking about storing hops.

 

[RyPA]

Ok, I wasn't sure. You are correct, the hops will be in there in an unsealed container, so they will be losing whatever smell they release naturally while dry. But this will only be for a few days, and hopefully the majority of hop goodness is retained until they are wet.

 

[Broothru]

Just thinking that doing step two that early will lose a lot of hop aroma as air and co2 is pushed out, right? Especially in those first few days of vigorous fermentation.

If you're going to go with the magnet method, would it be better to secure the hops after those first few days, but also while co2 is still being produced before fermentation ends? Then when you're ready, theoretically the O2 from the hops would be pushed out from those remaining days of fermentation, you can drop the hops in. I imagine you'll still lose some aroma from the remaining fermentation, which would have started to slow down, but maybe not as much as you would for the entirety of fermentation.

That's actually not a bad idea and would mitigate O2 staling and oxidation. It wouldn't eliminate it, but it would reduce it by expelling (over time) any air you let in when uncapping the lid and minimize the amount of hops aroma to get blown out.

 

[ifrit2050]

What about to drop the hop bag with a magnet, when the dry hop is done a close transfer to another keg. You will leaving the hop in the first one.

 

[RyPA]

What about to drop the hop bag with a magnet, when the dry hop is done a close transfer to another keg. You will leaving the hop in the first one.

The goal of this setup is to ferment and serve in same vessel/keg. There are other options if I bring transferring into the equation, but for now, everything is to stay in the same keg.

 

[tracer bullet]

I'm a fan of the magnet idea. Assuming of course you have or can find magnets strong enough to work.

A fermzilla would be interesting here as well. The clear / plastic would maybe make things a little easier to see what's going on. It would be an odd serving container but then again LOL maybe it'd be pretty cool, especially for guests. Frig space could be an issue...

Stating the obvious you may need a floating pick-up, if you use the normal pipe in the keg it'll be buried under a whole lot of yeast and hops and make some ugly first glasses plural.

 

[hout17]

I know the conversation has moved on to fermenting and serving in to the same keg but I have another idea.

I've been eyeing this fermzilla plastic conical for a while. You would be able to drop your trub and also add your dry hop through the bottom with the ability to purge with CO2 before opening up the valve to the beer. Then you could close transfer to a keg.

Edit: You could also serve out of it if you had a way to cool it down.

I would like to know how the keg magnet method turns out for you though @RyPA .

 

[RyPA]

The magnets are scary strong, to the point where they can break if you do not control how fast they attach to an object. As pictured here, I sized 2 magnet strips, one to go in the muslin bag with the hops, and one for the outside of the keg. I tested it on an corny and it feels strong, the only iffy part is with the added weight when I am pulling the dry hops out of the beer.

Before I had the idea for ferment+serve in the same keg, my plan was to get a fermonster 7 gallon carboy with gas/liquid fittings attached to the lid to do a closed transfer to a sanitized/purged keg (following the thread by @Dgallo). The fermonster liquid out would use a floating dip tube for the transfer. I don't want to re-explain everything (check out the thread), but this method would be 100% oxygen free, but requires transfers/extra cleanup, which I am trying to avoid.

And yes, my ferment+serving keg will use a floating dip tube.

 

[RyPA]

I know the conversation has moved on to fermenting and serving in to the same keg but I have another idea.

I've been eyeing this fermzilla plastic conical for a while. You would be able to drop your trub and also add your dry hop through the bottom with the ability to purge with CO2 before opening up the valve to the beer. Then you could close transfer to a keg.

I would like to know how the keg magnet method turns out for you though @RyPA .

That fermenter is nice, before I pull the trigger on the fermonster setup I was planning, I may check that out.

I will put together a thread for this brew for sure. My 6 gallon torpedo comes in tomorrow, hoping the magnets can go through it similar to a corny keg.

 

[Jag75]

Just seal the hops and magnet in a dissolvable plastic baggy. Slide the magnet down when you want to dry hop. The bag dissolves and bang , your dry hopping

 

[RyPA]

Just seal the hops and magnet in a dissolvable plastic baggy. Slide the magnet down when you want to dry hop. The bag dissolves and bang , your dry hopping

Yeah, but you're missing the goal of removing the hops from the beer. I know some have success with leaving the hops in the beer, but since I have a plan to remove them, I'm going with it.

 

[Jag75]

Yeah, but you're missing the goal of removing the hops from the beer. I know some have success with leaving the hops in the beer, but since I have a plan to remove them, I'm going with it.

Place the muslin bag inside the dissolving bag

 

[RyPA]

@Jag75 I guess that could help preserve the freshness of the hops, at the cost of off flavors from dissolved plastic. I think I'll risk flavor/aroma loss.

 

[fuzzybee]

That fermenter is nice, before I pull the trigger on the fermonster setup I was planning, I may check that out.

I will put together a thread for this brew for sure. My 6 gallon torpedo comes in tomorrow, hoping the magnets can go through it similar to a corny keg.

How did this work for you with the 6 gallon torpedo keg?

 

[RyPA]

How did this work for you with the 6 gallon torpedo keg?

It worked well, but it was a pain getting the muslin bag tight so it didn't sag and touch the beer prematurely. The magnets worked pretty good as well, I was able to slide them down mid-way into the beer, but when I was trying to drag them back up after a few days, the magnets lost connection and the hops fell back in the beer.

I've since changed my perspective on dry-hopping in muslin bags (or any bag/container), I now 100% go commando. Using a floating dip tube works good - you get better hop utilization and I haven't had any issues with hop matter in my beer. Though, I mostly use Lupomax which has less vegetative matter.

I have a citra/el dorado NEIPA that just finished fermenting in my 6g Torpedo. I am going to commando dry hop this afternoon and then begin carbing.

 

[fuzzybee]

It worked well, but it was a pain getting the muslin bag tight so it didn't sag and touch the beer prematurely. The magnets worked pretty good as well, I was able to slide them down mid-way into the beer, but when I was trying to drag them back up after a few days, the magnets lost connection and the hops fell back in the beer.

I've since changed my perspective on dry-hopping in muslin bags (or any bag/container), I now 100% go commando. Using a floating dip tube works good - you get better hop utilization and I haven't had any issues with hop matter in my beer. Though, I mostly use Lupomax which has less vegetative matter.

I have a citra/el dorado NEIPA that just finished fermenting in my 6g Torpedo. I am going to commando dry hop this afternoon and then begin carbing.

Thanks! I picked up a couple of FlotIts for my twin 6-gallon Torpedos. Are you not worried about oxygen ingress?

 

[RyPA]

Thanks! I picked up a couple of FlotIts for my twin 6-gallon Torpedos. Are you not worried about oxygen ingress?

I'm not thrilled about oxygen exposure, but I try to do it strategically to minimize it. I pop the lid to break the seal and then I start running CO2 into the liquid line, so that I have CO2 with some outward velocity hopefully reducing/eliminating o2 from getting in. I do it very quickly as well. Then a few CO2 purges for good measure.

 

[fuzzybee]

I'm not thrilled about oxygen exposure, but I try to do it strategically to minimize it. I pop the lid to break the seal and then I start running CO2 into the liquid line, so that I have CO2 with some outward velocity hopefully reducing/eliminating o2 from getting in. I do it very quickly as well. Then a few CO2 purges for good measure.

Gotcha.

 

[balrog]

running CO2 into the liquid line

I was going to say use the gas line to keep from blorping up sediment but then I remembered you float dip tube and you want to clear krausen outta that so two birds etc.

 

[fuzzybee]

I was going to say use the gas line to keep from blorping up sediment but then I remembered you float dip tube and you want to clear krausen outta that so two birds etc.

I have a Celebration clone I'm going to dry hop next week - I may give this a shot.

 

[RyPA]

Did it tonight and it worked as planned. I had the CO2 pumping while dry hopping, and once done and I aligned the keg lid, it immediately sealed itself, so there was definitely an outward force of CO2, I can't imagine much O2 getting in. If some did get in, the 10 purges most likely got 99.999% of it out.

This was so much easier than dealing with the magnets and muslin bag nonsense.