Opinions on Extract Brewing

[applescrap]

In Palmer and Zainasheffs book the recipes are all in extract. Plus a whole section regarding partial boils is offered. I always thought topping off a boiled wort with fresh water didn't taste the same. That the water wasn't flavored in the boil. Having never done this I have no idea. This just seems like an easy way to keep some pale ale around inbetween all grain brews. Assuming good quality dme and buying in bulk to keep costs down, how does this stuff taste? If its going to be like Mr. Beer, Im out. Its my understanding it doesnt taste to bad. Can anyone help me over the edge to give extract or even partial boils a try.

 

[Iseneye]

Why do you need convincing? I assume you have all the gear already. For the price of hops and some DME give it a go and the worst that can happen is you won't like the beer.

 

[STMF]

If you want it easy, do it like the hop test Basic Brewing is doing:

• Heat water to just about boiling (or abit lower if you prefer).
• Throw in the DME + Hops
• Wait 30 min
• Chill and put it in the fermenter

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I did DME extract beers for a while when I started brewing. I don’t think that there is any difference at all between using DME as a base malt and all grain base malt. I recently did a pale ale with only DME and Nelson Sauvin hops. The beer came out great as it was and if I had used some steeping grains, which I feel were unneeded, I suppose I could have added some complexity. I love brewing all grain, but I think the difference between DME and all grain is aesthetic as in, I feel cooler because I brew AG. Plus it is super easy and consistent. The malt extract companies have everything super controlled. They don’t mash low because of a poorly calibrated thermometer like you or I might. I think that for advanced brewers, DME could be used as a tool for more quickly experimenting with other variables.

The Brülosophy exBeeriment doesn’t agree with me. http://brulosophy.com/2016/01/04/ex...-2-comparing-recipe-kits-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Hobby brewer]

I did an extract kit a few months back. I believe it was a basic beer, american classic. Was two packages of DME and some hops. I adjusted the hops a touch, but it made a decent drinkable beer. I'm not sold on the LME but I may keep some DME on hand to bump up a lower SG and make starters with

 

[HTH1975]

This thread is well-timed as I’m about to do an extract brew tonight, with a twist.

I’m brewing a 20L batch, but only adding around half of the extract during the boil for a gravity of around 1.045 in 10L of water. This ensures good hop utilisation.

The remaining extract and invert sugar will be added in the last 5 minutes. After a ‘hop stand for 30 mins, I’ll add the remaining 10L (or so) of water to get the full 20L volume and gravity of 1.045

This way I have no immersion chiller to use. Hoping it works out as it could make for a super-quick brew evening.

 

[Miraculix]

This thread is well-timed as I’m about to do an extract brew tonight, with a twist.

I’m brewing a 20L batch, but only adding around half of the extract during the boil for a gravity of around 1.045 in 10L of water. This ensures good hop utilisation.

The remaining extract and invert sugar will be added in the last 5 minutes. After a ‘hop stand for 30 mins, I’ll add the remaining 10L (or so) of water to get the full 20L volume and gravity of 1.045

This way I have no immersion chiller to use. Hoping it works out as it could make for a super-quick brew evening.

You got something wrong regarding hop utilization.

Best hop utilization would be in the complete absence of sugars and proteins, plain water. Pure water is also able to solve more ibus than the more or less 100 units that wort can take.

Your plan sounds good otherwise. Just throw in the extract at the last minute of the boil and make sure that you put the right boil gravity into your ibu calculator(in this case 1.0) as the utilization will be much better than in wort.

Done it about ten times myself. Look at the "lazy German" recipe in the lager forum for a bit more input on this (happening on the last pages).

 

[dmtaylor]

Extract is fine, especially for brown beers and hoppy beers. For most other things, all-grain tastes a whole lot better. But if all you care about is hops, then extract is just fine. Just brew it.

 

[agrazela]

I started brewing about 5 yrs ago. Like most everyone, I started with extract kits, poor fermentation temperature control, and bottling. My first few beers really sucked.

Then I jumped on fermentation control fridges, AG BIAB, wort oxygenation, starters, and a full-on keezer setup. With every step, my beers got much, much better.

Then I took about an 18 month hiatus, some of that because my son moved back in for awhile to pay off some student debt (and I got tired of coming home to empty kegs all the time), some of that to move my MIL into the spare bedroom that was my brewery (now I'm using a much smaller space in the corner of the garage).

A couple months ago I unboxed all my stuff and started back up--with extract, just as a simple way to "re-wet my feet" and to see if I even wanted to stick with this hobby. Thanks to all the other process improvements previously listed (and, I suppose, my gathered, ruminated-upon experience), these are by far the best damned beers I've ever made, every bit as good as the $12 six-packs and $6 pints I'd gone back to buying. Even my wife compliments them, and anyone who is married knows what an extreme rarity a compliment from a wife is.

Gotta tell ya, now I'm having a very, very hard time convincing myself that I need to go back to the hassles of grain storage, the deep minutiae of water chemistry, extra time on brewday, drips and drops all over the place, disposal of spent grains, etc., etc., etc., all just to save a few bucks on a batch.

I plan to try a few BIAB PM batches just to see if there is some "it factor" I'm missing by not using grain...but right now, I'm really liking DME, and if I don't (re-)progress beyond extract, I think I'm gonna be OK.

 

[deadwolfbones]

DME is very good these days. I have no hesitation using it to goose my bigger beers, or for kettle sours. I use it pretty much exclusively for my Berliners and goses. I like using grain for the process and variety, but for simpler beers I don't see any reason not to use extract.

 

[HTH1975]

You got something wrong regarding hop utilization.

Best hop utilization would be in the complete absence of sugars and proteins, plain water. Pure water is also able to solve more ibus than the more or less 100 units that wort can take.

Your plan sounds good otherwise. Just throw in the extract at the last minute of the boil and make sure that you put the right boil gravity into your ibu calculator(in this case 1.0) as the utilization will be much better than in wort.

Done it about ten times myself. Look at the "lazy German" recipe in the lager forum for a bit more input on this (happening on the last pages).

Thanks for the response, however I deliberately want the boil to have a similar gravity to that of an AG beer brewed to the same recipe. Hop oils also play a part, so simply boiling less hops in water for the optimum utilisation does not give the desired result.

The brew went great btw - got the exact OG and volume I wanted. Providing the beer tastes good, it’s a process I will certainly repeat again.

 

[Steveruch]

If you want it easy, do it like the hop test Basic Brewing is doing:

• Heat water to just about boiling (or abit lower if you prefer).
• Throw in the DME + Hops
• Wait 30 min
• Chill and put it in the fermenter

That is what I did a month ago. While not my best beer it turned out okay.
Did to my current living arrangement that is going to be how I brew for a while.

 

[applescrap]

I did DME extract beers for a while when I started brewing. I don’t think that there is any difference at all between using DME as a base malt and all grain base malt. I recently did a pale ale with only DME and Nelson Sauvin hops. The beer came out great as it was and if I had used some steeping grains, which I feel were unneeded, I suppose I could have added some complexity. I love brewing all grain, but I think the difference between DME and all grain is aesthetic as in, I feel cooler because I brew AG. Plus it is super easy and consistent. The malt extract companies have everything super controlled. They don’t mash low because of a poorly calibrated thermometer like you or I might. I think that for advanced brewers, DME could be used as a tool for more quickly experimenting with other variables.

The Brülosophy exBeeriment doesn’t agree with me. http://brulosophy.com/2016/01/04/ex...-2-comparing-recipe-kits-exbeeriment-results/

Thanks, I do love their work. They have a couple tests. Even though preference leans towards all grain, I wonder if I could live with it. Some mention a twang to it. Since I have never drank much of it other than mr beer, maybe I wont notice. I think I will notice fo shure. Question is can I live with it for the convenience.

I haven't brewed it yet because the stuff at non bulk prices is like 3x more expensive. Everyone knows I dont really like brewing and I dont get off on it at all. I dont like making pasta either, but I do. No ill will to those of you that love brewing. I think thats great. I love golfing, most find that stupid. I do love to drink beer however. So when the price of brewing gets up there, I lose interest quick.

My consideration here is buy 50 lbs of high quality dme or bail. Theres no real inbetween for me. I am trying to decde if I want to go all in or not. Haha, full monty. My first all grain batch was from a 50lb sack and I have never brewed a batch that didnt come from a 50 lb sack other than wheat beer and brown ales from brown malt. I understand if this doesn't make sense to a lot of you. I dont make a lot 9f money so this is how I roll. Descisions like this coupled with my mechanic, plumbing, cooking skills gives me a decent life. All that said maybe ill give a small batch a try.

Partial boil sounds so easy. Also the recipes are good.

 

[applescrap]

This thread is well-timed as I’m about to do an extract brew tonight, with a twist.

I’m brewing a 20L batch, but only adding around half of the extract during the boil for a gravity of around 1.045 in 10L of water. This ensures good hop utilisation.

The remaining extract and invert sugar will be added in the last 5 minutes. After a ‘hop stand for 30 mins, I’ll add the remaining 10L (or so) of water to get the full 20L volume and gravity of 1.045

This way I have no immersion chiller to use. Hoping it works out as it could make for a super-quick brew evening.

Exactly! Forgot about chilling bonus. Seems like a great way to keep a pale ale/ipa pipeline. Theoretically the dme is sanitized, it was evaporated at creation, but I would feel better if it was at 145 or higher for the amount of time based on temperature. Please share hiw it goes.

 

[applescrap]

I started brewing about 5 yrs ago. Like most everyone, I started with extract kits, poor fermentation temperature control, and bottling. My first few beers really sucked.

Then I jumped on fermentation control fridges, AG BIAB, wort oxygenation, starters, and a full-on keezer setup. With every step, my beers got much, much better.

Then I took about an 18 month hiatus, some of that because my son moved back in for awhile to pay off some student debt (and I got tired of coming home to empty kegs all the time), some of that to move my MIL into the spare bedroom that was my brewery (now I'm using a much smaller space in the corner of the garage).

A couple months ago I unboxed all my stuff and started back up--with extract, just as a simple way to "re-wet my feet" and to see if I even wanted to stick with this hobby. Thanks to all the other process improvements previously listed (and, I suppose, my gathered, ruminated-upon experience), these are by far the best damned beers I've ever made, every bit as good as the $12 six-packs and $6 pints I'd gone back to buying. Even my wife compliments them, and anyone who is married knows what an extreme rarity a compliment from a wife is.

Gotta tell ya, now I'm having a very, very hard time convincing myself that I need to go back to the hassles of grain storage, the deep minutiae of water chemistry, extra time on brewday, drips and drops all over the place, disposal of spent grains, etc., etc., etc., all just to save a few bucks on a batch.

I plan to try a few BIAB PM batches just to see if there is some "it factor" I'm missing by not using grain...but right now, I'm really liking DME, and if I don't (re-)progress beyond extract, I think I'm gonna be OK.

Thanks a lot for the comments. Man, this is experience that I am looking for. On experimental brewing they have a brew file podcast with an la homebrew guru. He was cool, uses pet bags in fermenter for easy clean up too. He is super clever. And he admits that the best beers in the hb club are better than his, but his dme beers top most of the rest. Maybe its not the best but with variety I cant help but think the ease will make me happy.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

When it comes to cost, keep in mind that you use .6 lbs of DME for every 1 lb. of base malt grain, so if the actual cost is 3X more for DME per pound then it is only 1.8X more expensive per brew since you use less.

 

[applescrap]

Last thought here, assuming just like anything this matters, my plan is to get the best tasting I can afford within reason. Briess?

 

[applescrap]

When it comes to cost, keep in mind that you use .6 lbs of DME for every 1 lb. of base malt grain, so if the actual cost is 3X more for DME per pound then it is only 1.8X more expensive per brew since you use less.

Thanks good point. I am working with 6x whatever per pound vs 10 lb ag as an average. But because of what you mention, it seems reasonable enough. I have heard people talk about amazing deals but it seems like 3 a lb is the best for good dme. Anyone know a good deal? I know lme wont keep very well, hope I am right assuming this will, dry that is

In Australia they no chill wort in cubes and you buy them and bring them back. Pretty clever.

I have 20 pounds of golden promise so I am in no immediate rush. I would definitely buy it again.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

My consideration here is buy 50 lbs of high quality dme or bail.

Pay attention to the manufacturers recommendations for storage, especially for open bags. I haven't read the recommendations for 50 lb DME bags, but for 3 lb bags of DME, it's generally use it quickly after the bag is opened.

Also, there's more to DME than just "light" and "extra light": for example, Munich and Vienna. For a one gallon batch, 8 oz Munich DME and 8 oz Vienna DME yield a darker beer with a nice nutty flavor.

Theres no real inbetween for me.

Consider going "all-in" on a copy of How To Brew, 4e. It will give you a consistent, concise set of terminology. The book will also outline the advantages/disadvantages of "full boils" and "partial boils with late extract additions".

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

That is what I did a month ago. While not my best beer it turned out okay.
Did to my current living arrangement that is going to be how I brew for a while.

Most recently, I've brewed a couple of good batches this way with just Citra T90 hops. With one approach, I add the hops (1 oz) at flame-out and let the wort sit for 15 minutes (cooling down to about 170* F). With a second approach, I "hop steep" the hops (1 oz) for 20 minutes at 180*F. Two different beers. For me, the 1st is a lot like a 15 minute boil, and the 2nd came out along the lines of a NEIPA.

I've also brewed this way with using 8 oz Munich DME and 8 oz "Light" DME. The malt / hop combination came out to my liking. In addition to Citra, a blend of Cascade/Centennial (1.5 oz, 50% each) and a single addition of Falconers Flight has given me good results. (All these were T90 pellets and hop steeps at 180*F)

 

[applescrap]

Pay attention to the manufacturers recommendations for storage, especially for open bags. I haven't read the recommendations for 50 lb DME bags, but for 3 lb bags of DME, it's generally use it quickly after the bag is opened.

Also, there's more to DME than just "light" and "extra light": for example, Munich and Vienna. For a one gallon batch, 8 oz Munich DME and 8 oz Vienna DME yield a darker beer with a nice nutty flavor.



Consider going "all-in" on a copy of How To Brew, 4e. It will give you a consistent, concise set of terminology. The book will also outline the advantages/disadvantages of "full boils" and "partial boils with late extract additions".

key point about the storage. Sounds like the book has some good extract points. Never read the extract section. I have never brewed one that wasnt a mr beer. In classic styles palmer is solid in describing partial boils. Feels like cheating almost. Love palmer. Ever watch him brew. He brews with northern brewer on a good 3 tier video. I think vorlaufing really is an advantage to biab. Pulling myself out of the weeds, his podcast with Dr. Smith on yeast is enjoyable.

 

[HTH1975]

Exactly! Forgot about chilling bonus. Seems like a great way to keep a pale ale/ipa pipeline. Theoretically the dme is sanitized, it was evaporated at creation, but I would feel better if it was at 145 or higher for the amount of time based on temperature. Please share hiw it goes.

It’s fermenting away nicely (just checked tonight). Last night I added 25g each of Fuggles and Goldings, plus 10g of Vic Secret for a bit zing. Hoping for that floral bio transformation flavour by dry hopping during active fermentation. Will also add more on Sunday (day 4).

 

[ncbrewer]

I know lme wont keep very well, hope I am right assuming this will, dry that is

I use a lot of LME. I buy what I will use within 3 months - normally in 8 pound pouches. Never had a complaint with flavor being degraded, but it does darken some. That shows up in pale beers, but I'm ok with that. Williams Brewing has a good price on LME, and they sell several made from a grain bill that is ready for brown ale, stout, etc. without adding any steeping grains - that helps keep the price down. I'd say this can easily compete with buying DME in bulk and adding steeping grains. And you won't have the concern about the DME turning into a brick.

 

[applescrap]

So the lme comes already made with the specialty lmes to make a vatiety of beer? That sounds awesome. Ill check it out. Is lme more expensive than dme?

 

[applescrap]

I have seen stupid cheap extract kits on Northern Brewer. Maybe that's not a bad way to go

 

[kh54s10]

I don't brew many extract beers much any more, because I prefer the control that all grain gives you in knowing exactly the percentages of each ingredient used. Extracts are made from the same malts and you cannot always find out what went into them. I also like doing the brewing and do not care that all grain takes longer.

My extracts are every bit as good as my all grain beers. They are probably different.

Things I do:

Add only half or so of the extract at the beginning of the boil and the rest at flame out. This keeps the color lighter and closer to what you would get with all grain.

I use only light DME now. My original kits from NB had liquid and dry malt extracts. I formulate recipes using Beersmith to use crystal and roasted grains for color and flavor.

One question that I don't know was answered was about top up water diluting the flavor of the beer. It doesn't if the recipe is designed for top up water. The wort before topping up is high gravity and concentrated. You then add top up water to lower the gravity and flavor to the desired beer.

Another option, if you have a kettle big enough, is to do a full volume beer. No topping up.

 

[ncbrewer]

So the lme comes already made with the specialty lmes to make a vatiety of beer? That sounds awesome. Ill check it out. Is lme more expensive than dme?

Normally DME is more expensive than LME, but I've found it at a good discount in bulk. For me, LME made more sense. And yes, some of the LME has the specialty grains already in the grain bill. I had to shorten my brew day as much as possible because of a back problem. The ready-made LME made it possible to keep brewing. Check out the 32 pound packs (four 8 lb pouches) at Williams. Shipping to Denver might make it practical for you. It's too expensive shipping to NC.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

One question that I don't know was answered was about top up water diluting the flavor of the beer. It doesn't if the recipe is designed for top up water. The wort before topping up is high gravity and concentrated. You then add top up water to lower the gravity and flavor to the desired beer.

Personally, I get "unexpected flavors" from extract+steep batches (both mine beers and beers from others) that use a concentrated boil. So when I brew a recipe bigger than my heat source, it's "partial boil with a late extract addition".

Brulosophy did an all-grain partial vs full boil exbeeriment -- the tasters were unable to reliably distinguish the two beers.

I use only light DME now. My original kits from NB had liquid and dry malt extracts. I formulate recipes using Beersmith to use crystal and roasted grains for color and flavor.

I've been brewing some with Munich, Pale Ale, and Vienna DME.
A "grain bill" of 50% Munich DME and 50% Vienna DME (by weight) results in a darker ale with a nutty flavor.

----------------------------------------

http://brulosophy.com/2018/01/15/boil-volume-partial-vs-full-in-all-grain-beer-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Lefou]

Last thought here, assuming just like anything this matters, my plan is to get the best tasting I can afford within reason. Briess?

If you go with the Briess, double-check for freshness dates.
The 3.3lb LME canisters will usually have a dated barcode on the bottom, so compare what's on the shelf if you're shopping. I've used their Bavarian Wheat LME for an all extract (no steeping grains) hefeweizen and it's very good. With that style of beer you can easily get away with a short 30min boil and low alpha hops. It might cost you a bit more for the extract beer, but will save you time as opposed to crushing, mashing, and cleaning up a comparable all grain.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I tried brewing an extract beer once. The LME was a few months old. Hated it. Never again.

When I make starters, the [Briess] DME wort smells and tastes bad, in my opinion.

I'll stick with all grain. Milling, mashing, adjusting water, and cleaning are all worth the effort to me.