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breeves2245

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Returned to brewing last year after a decade or so away. I am an extract brewer and brewed maybe six batches or so last year. Getting results from this may be bad to this is fairly good. So this year I upped my game and make improvements. Got a great basement/patio for brewing, plenty of room, 20 gal utility sink, etc.

Improvements were made on the cool side. Bought two dual star controllers with 12" probes, Big Mouth dual port lid with valve and the fermwraps to keep fermentation temp constant. Also a bought a diffusion stone setup. Controllers/fermwraps worked very well, so I was getting excited about tasting the first batch of Dead Ringer IPA. After a few days in kegerator and getting some CO2 I gave it a try. Borderline not drinkable. I know conditioning plays a role so I will wait another week to see if it improves to drinkable. Got the SMASH IPA dry hopping now and will be in the keg tomorrow. So another one coming soon.

It this one does not come out good, I may be done. I am extremely careful with sanitation. I have a large plastic tub, I think Sterlite from Wally World, to use for sanitation. It's an under the bed storage type plastic tub, very nice to put in 2.5 gal and .5 oz of starsan for a sanitation bath for all my equipment. Plus a handy bottle spray for any situation I think I may need. Very focused during the brew, no distractions. These last two batches went smooth. Wort cooled quickly with immersion chiller, OG looked right, new oxygen diffusion stone worked great, yeast took off on time and aggressive. Controller hooked up with probe to keep it at 67°, and stored out of sunlight. Racked to sanitized keg using the Big Mouth valve and sanitized tubing. Purged the keg a bit to pull out any oxygen. Four days later, first taste is not encouraging. Just tastes very bad. If the next batch goes this same route, I really don't know how it makes any sense to continue. Don't know what else to do short of hiring a brewing consultant to come to my house and watch every step I do.
 
What made the Dead Ringer border line undrinkable? Off flavors? If so, can you describe the flavors?
 
What exactly are you tasting in your brews that you would describe them as "borderline undrinkable?"

It sounds like your sanitation is fine, but what about the rest of the process? What yeast strains have you been using? How long fermenting before transferring to keg?
 
Define 'bad'? Hard to help you diagnose without more info.

What water are you using? Tap? If so you probably have a chlorine/chloramine issue. Is the 'bad' flavor plastic/bandaids?
 
I find that IPAs can be unbearably bitter before they've conditioned (like when I drink the gravity sample, because obviously I'm going to drink that). If that's your issue, time will solve.
 
Just went and tried the Dead Ringer again. I'm not too good at describing taste. I cannot detect a distinct off flavor or any one taste standing out. It does need more carbonation, but that will come in the next couple of days. For whatever reason, it was not as bad as when I tried it first thing in the morning, three hours ago. Maybe the banana I just ate before I tried made a difference. Still not good with a slightly astringent after taste. My tap water taste fine. I kept the wort in the primary four weeks and now it's been in the keg one week. Did not rack to a secondary.

My last batch is brewing now, the Kama Citra IPA. I'll wait until I get results from this one before I throw in the towel.
 
Just tested my digital thermometer, it reads 28° in a cup of ice with water. So I may have been pitching at too high a temp. I shoot for 70-75° but if the yeast were happy, I guess that is not an issue. I'll give the water advice a go, unfortunately I just started my boil, so it will have to be next time.

I was all jacked up to go all grain with a BIAB system, but if I can't get extract right, I am not going down that road yet.
 
Although it's not as much of a problem with extract brews, the tap water could be a culprit. Although it tastes fine, tap water is treated with chlorine or chloramines, which can lead to some pretty medicinal or plasticy tastes in the finished product. I would also say pitching at 70-75 is a little too warm. Pitch it in the low 60's and let it slowly come up to the ideal temp for the yeast you're using.

Good luck! :mug:
 
Just went and tried the Dead Ringer again. I'm not too good at describing taste. I cannot detect a distinct off flavor or any one taste standing out. It does need more carbonation, but that will come in the next couple of days. For whatever reason, it was not as bad as when I tried it first thing in the morning, three hours ago. Maybe the banana I just ate before I tried made a difference. Still not good with a slightly astringent after taste. My tap water taste fine. I kept the wort in the primary four weeks and now it's been in the keg one week. Did not rack to a secondary.

My last batch is brewing now, the Kama Citra IPA. I'll wait until I get results from this one before I throw in the towel.

Astringent would lead me to think you steeped your grains too high.

I'm just looking at the dead ringer directions. For some reason they say to start it a few days before brew day. That is nuts! Start it the night before at the earliest. Then you have to like Centennial hops with this recipe.
 
Go all grain BIAB before you quit brewing. I started out all grain then after a couple of years, tried extract to see if I could shorten my brew day. My first taste of extract brew was...YUK....where did I go wrong. I've had some extract beers that are great, but my experience left much to be desired. The yeast you are using can also impart flavor. Finally, the "first taste" should be way before its been in the keg. I always taste the wort when brewing, and every time I pull a sample for gravity tests. If it doesn't taste right when it goes into the keg, or before dry hopping or at any other time, its better to find out as early as you can. Good Luck and Brew on. :tank:
 
I am not that familiar with the beers you are trying to replicate. You may want to try something simpler to help isolate issues and focus on mastering the basics. For example, a simple beer based on extract and steeping one grain at most. A single bittering hop addition. This will help you focus on technique...if the beer's good, branch out

There's a great recipe from Charlie Papazian called Cheeks to the Wind that is simple and good for practice. It's basically a mild English ale using 6 pounds of light LME, 8 ounces of black patent for color, and 1 ounce of Fuggles at 60 minutes. add a pack of Safale 04. It's done in a week but I give it two.

Make a simple beer, build confidence, branch out. Don't quit.
 
Thanks for the replies. To answer a previous post I used US-05 yeast. I have my wort chilling now and will pitch a little cooler this time. Also the grain steeping too hot may have played a part. My digital is right after all. Once the ice/water sat for a few more minutes, it read 32°. I do wonder if taking a reading through the steam of the boil to stop steeping at 170°, if I am reading the temp of the steam or actual liquid.

Very good news to hear on going all grain even though you got less than great results from extract. Got my eye on that Colorado Brewing or High Gravity system. As I was on the patio on this cool day I realized this is a fun hobby. Really enjoy it, just got to get better.
 
A few tips based on some of the steps you described in your process:

Waters tastes fine - couple of things here. First you mentioned you're an extract brewer, so I'd recommend that you use bottled/distilled/RO water for your brewing. The extract likely already contains minerals from the manufacturing process and by using your tap water your adding an unknown amount of more minerals to it. At a minimum, if you are using tap water I'd recommend using a campden tablet to your brewing water to remove chlorine/chloramine.

Shoot for 70-75 - Depending on what yeast strains your using this might be a little high. Check what the manufacturer recommends, but in my experience shooting for the lower end of the range seems to yield less off flavors. I usually go for 68 for the standard California Ale and English Ale yeasts.

Purge a few times - A lot of folks will tell you that it's overkill, but unless you purge 15 times @ 30PSI you are leaving more oxygen in your head space than modern professional brewing techniques permit. It doesn't sound like you're describing oxidized beer taste, but I thought I would mention it.

Primary for 4 weeks - That just sounds like overkill. What type of fermentation vessel are you using, and how/how often are you taking samples of your beer? For example, if you're using a bucket, and you're opening the lid once a week to take samples, I'd say that's a problem.
 
Oh, I'd also say that you should give at least one all-grain BIAB a shot before you call it quits. I'm guessing you already have all the equipment you need besides the bag. It gives you a lot more control over the process, and you don't get that extract "twang" that some people complain about.
 
Thanks for the replies. To answer a previous post I used US-05 yeast. I have my wort chilling now and will pitch a little cooler this time. Also the grain steeping too hot may have played a part. My digital is right after all. Once the ice/water sat for a few more minutes, it read 32°. I do wonder if taking a reading through the steam of the boil to stop steeping at 170°, if I am reading the temp of the steam or actual liquid.

Very good news to hear on going all grain even though you got less than great results from extract. Got my eye on that Colorado Brewing or High Gravity system. As I was on the patio on this cool day I realized this is a fun hobby. Really enjoy it, just got to get better.

Good to hear you've had a change of heart. Nobody likes a quitter! ditch the extract and go all grain, even with the higher learning curve once you get through that and refine your process your beers will be ten times better. My experience was extract was just unpredictable and held me back with different styles I wanted to make. Now this piece of advice might be very unpopular amongst others on this site but I do not like US-05 dry yeast. Get away from it. I have just had bad results with it, an off flavor I cant really describe, go with the liquid Wyeast and White Labs equivalents.
 
Do you know anyone locally who can be consulted on this, your process, water, temps, etc.?

Having an experienced brewer go through the process with you might be very helpful.
 
don't quit! trial and error! I know I've had to drink my way through a few questionable batches in the name of brewing better beer!
 
Just from experience as an extract brewer I never steep my grains up to 170. I will go to 155 and hold there. Then I have another pot of 170 degree water for rinsing grains in a colander. I don't want to chance extracting tannins.
 
Okay, going to give it the ole college try once again taking into account the tips above. Just kegged my SMASH IPA, initial taste was encouraging. Purged it once, I'll purge it more based on above advice. To answer a post, I ferment in the Big Mouth 6.5 gal with valve. No blowoff tube, plenty of head room. Fermwrap w/ dual star controller. I held temp at 66.5° with a 1.5° offset. Just put the Kama Citra in the fermenter, raised it to 68° per advice above.

Did not mention in previous posts, I went to full boil to eliminate pouring tap water in to top off wort.
 
All that has been said is all good info, when you are kegging I have found that sometimes my IPA' and pale ales can be bitter for the first week or 2 in the keg and are great after that till it kicks.

Do you have a local home brew club? Take some samples to a meeting and see if someone else tastes the "bad" flavor or has had it and says "oh yea I've had that taste and I did this to fix it"
If you don't maybe take some to your LHBS and ask them to taste it.

And as far as going AG before quitting I definitely agree with that, I have been AG for almost 5 years and have never looked back the flavor is so much better, so much so that you will ask yourself why you didn't do it sooner.

Good luck and hope you get it fixed soon.
 
Did not mention in previous posts, I went to full boil to eliminate pouring tap water in to top off wort.

You're still missing some key advice that's been mentioned earlier. You need to treat your tap water to remove chlorine or chloramine. No way around it. There are multiple ways to do this. Unless I'm misunderstanding you and you're using spring water.

Plus, without knowing what minerals are in your water, who knows what is going into your final product.
 
You can call your city to find out how your tap water is treated. Better yet, ask them who treats your water, and get their number. Some cities have their own dept for water treatment. Some use a regional facility. The city or the treater can also send you a report for free. Different locals offer different reports, so you may get something that contains only permit requirements or you may get something more detailed.
 
Returned to brewing last year after a decade or so away. I am an extract brewer and brewed maybe six batches or so last year. Getting results from this may be bad to this is fairly good. So this year I upped my game and make improvements. Got a great basement/patio for brewing, plenty of room, 20 gal utility sink, etc.

Improvements were made on the cool side. Bought two dual star controllers with 12" probes, Big Mouth dual port lid with valve and the fermwraps to keep fermentation temp constant. Also a bought a diffusion stone setup. Controllers/fermwraps worked very well, so I was getting excited about tasting the first batch of Dead Ringer IPA. After a few days in kegerator and getting some CO2 I gave it a try. Borderline not drinkable. I know conditioning plays a role so I will wait another week to see if it improves to drinkable. Got the SMASH IPA dry hopping now and will be in the keg tomorrow. So another one coming soon.

It this one does not come out good, I may be done. I am extremely careful with sanitation. I have a large plastic tub, I think Sterlite from Wally World, to use for sanitation. It's an under the bed storage type plastic tub, very nice to put in 2.5 gal and .5 oz of starsan for a sanitation bath for all my equipment. Plus a handy bottle spray for any situation I think I may need. Very focused during the brew, no distractions. These last two batches went smooth. Wort cooled quickly with immersion chiller, OG looked right, new oxygen diffusion stone worked great, yeast took off on time and aggressive. Controller hooked up with probe to keep it at 67°, and stored out of sunlight. Racked to sanitized keg using the Big Mouth valve and sanitized tubing. Purged the keg a bit to pull out any oxygen. Four days later, first taste is not encouraging. Just tastes very bad. If the next batch goes this same route, I really don't know how it makes any sense to continue. Don't know what else to do short of hiring a brewing consultant to come to my house and watch every step I do.

You REALLY need to brew with someone else, there is something going on and if you cant see it, you need to get another set of eyes in there.

Like was said before, water is key. I use a solid carbon block to remove the chlorine, if not, my beer tastes horrible too.
 
Yeah, I would say that treating your water to remove chlorine and chloramine is the best piece of advice that you've seemed have missed. A simple campden tablet should do the trick. Definitely give that a shot on your next brew!
 
I have to agree with those mentioning water. even before you try a BIAB, try some bottled/distilled/RO, see if that helps

I know I can drink my water out of the tap and it's fine. but if I use it to make coffee or mix with powdered drink, it tastes like feet & a$$. I brewed a simple beer recipe with it and I named it Feet & A$$ Mild. it was very bad

so I go bottled, buy the big 5 gallon jugs from WalMart, add the minerals I need.
 
Thanks for the replies. To answer a previous post I used US-05 yeast. I have my wort chilling now and will pitch a little cooler this time. Also the grain steeping too hot may have played a part. My digital is right after all. Once the ice/water sat for a few more minutes, it read 32°. I do wonder if taking a reading through the steam of the boil to stop steeping at 170°, if I am reading the temp of the steam or actual liquid.

Very good news to hear on going all grain even though you got less than great results from extract. Got my eye on that Colorado Brewing or High Gravity system. As I was on the patio on this cool day I realized this is a fun hobby. Really enjoy it, just got to get better.


wat.

Are you saying you never actually took a temperature reading of the water?
 
Okay, going to give it the ole college try once again taking into account the tips above. Just kegged my SMASH IPA, initial taste was encouraging. Purged it once, I'll purge it more based on above advice. To answer a post, I ferment in the Big Mouth 6.5 gal with valve. No blowoff tube, plenty of head room. Fermwrap w/ dual star controller. I held temp at 66.5° with a 1.5° offset. Just put the Kama Citra in the fermenter, raised it to 68° per advice above.

Did not mention in previous posts, I went to full boil to eliminate pouring tap water in to top off wort.

Ditch the tap water or at least treat it. Straight tap water will lead to bandaid like flavors. And please don't give up. Try and describe what you are tasting off here on the forum and the many kind people here will get you sorted.
 
Ditch the tap water or at least treat it. Straight tap water will lead to bandaid like flavors. And please don't give up. Try and describe what you are tasting off here on the forum and the many kind people here will get you sorted.

Not true of all places. Some tap water is great.
 
Thanks for the replies. To answer a previous post I used US-05 yeast. I have my wort chilling now and will pitch a little cooler this time. Also the grain steeping too hot may have played a part. My digital is right after all. Once the ice/water sat for a few more minutes, it read 32°. I do wonder if taking a reading through the steam of the boil to stop steeping at 170°, if I am reading the temp of the steam or actual liquid.

Very good news to hear on going all grain even though you got less than great results from extract. Got my eye on that Colorado Brewing or High Gravity system. As I was on the patio on this cool day I realized this is a fun hobby. Really enjoy it, just got to get better.

You want your probe in the water. If I steep grains I start them at 100 and steadily rise until 152 or so. I then turn off the heat and hold the grains at temp for 15-30 minutes. After that I take the grains out and bring the water to a boil.

One other question...Are you turning off the heat before adding the extract? And making sure it is well combined? Scorching the wort would give you a burnt flavor.
 
Not true of all places. Some tap water is great.

Mineral wise, no doubt, but almost all water in the us has chlorine or chloramines in them to kill nasties. Those are what I would be worried about. If you go to RO water or spring water from the store you can avoid those.
 
A few things to reinforce but that i know work from my first 3 batches that are either done or coming along really well for extract.

Buy bottled water as said, its cheap and there is no reason not to.
Steep your grains lower, 150-155. They are still crushed grain and at 170 or higher can still release tannins into your pre boil wort.
Add only half of your DME or LME at the beginning of the boil. Add the last half 5-10 minutes before the end of your boil, seems to be working much better for me doing 2.5 and 1 gal boils.
Make sure to take the pot off the burner when adding DME/LME
Make sure you are pitching lower then 70. You want the yeast to start happy and warm but not so warm they go crazy and shoot off all sorts of off flavors.

Again Buy bottled purified water.

No need to quit, just keep practicing!
 
+1 to all advice above.

As said before, take the water quality out of the equation, and at least brew once with 100% RO water. Many Walmarts and larger supermarkets, have an RO filling station, you bring the jugs or buy them there.

Beware, some "distilled" and "Spring" water sold in jugs apparently contain chlorine for preservation. If it's in there, you should be able to smell and taste it as soon as you open it.

If your domestic water supply (from a water company) is good quality and not too loaded with minerals, it should be fine for extract brewing. But you should always treat it with 1/4 finely crushed Campden tablet per 5 gallons of water. Stir well for a minute to dissolve and disperse. Done! It removes all chlorine and chloramines. If you have a well, there won't be any chlorine in it, but it may contain minerals unwanted for brewing.

Taste wise, some people really don't like very hoppy or bitter beer.
 
+1 to all advice above.

If your domestic water supply (from a water company) is good quality and not too loaded with minerals, it should be fine for extract brewing. But you should always treat it with 1/4 finely crushed Campden tablet per 5 gallons of water. Stir well for a minute to dissolve and disperse. Done! It removes all chlorine and chloramines. If you have a well, there won't be any chlorine in it, but it may contain minerals unwanted for brewing.

Isn't the recommended amount of campden one tablet to each gallon or is the 1/4 tablet sufficient to treat 5 gallons of beer?

I look forward to your reply.
 
Isn't the recommended amount of campden one tablet to each gallon or is the 1/4 tablet sufficient to treat 5 gallons of beer?

I look forward to your reply.

There are 2 different uses:
  • To kill (wild) yeasts and bacteria add 1 tablet / gallon of must.
  • To remove chlorine/chloramines add 1/4 tablet / 5 gallons of water.
 
Ward Labs water test is really easy and stops all the guessing. It's not free (currently $42) but then you actually know something.

I also suggest just trying a liquid yeast. Some folks swear they get better results, from both sides of the dry/liquid discussion.

But if you test the water you can stop guessing about that variable in this equation.
 
Ward Labs water test is really easy and stops all the guessing. It's not free (currently $42) but then you actually know something.

I also suggest just trying a liquid yeast. Some folks swear they get better results, from both sides of the dry/liquid discussion.

But if you test the water you can stop guessing about that variable in this equation.

Don't order the kit! Instead, just send a sample to them for the W-5A Brewers Test which runs "only" $27.50.

It used to be $21 for the Household Test (W5), which was sufficient for brewers, but their prices have recently gone up by as much as 30%.

If you just want to test for chlorine, get an aquarium testing kit. Or treat with Campden and don't look back.

With Ward's price increase those Lamotte kits are looking more lucrative by the day. Although $100 for 2 handfuls of simple test reagents makes me shudder, at least you can run the tests 50x.

Don't forget, your Ward report is only a single snapshot. Your water may change with the seasons.
 
Very thankful for all the replies. I have summarized all the responses and have several areas to make significant improvements. Water seems to be the highest priority. Your help has given me confidence to carry on. If the next extract batch comes out decent, all grain here I come!
 
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