Omron PID
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Grounded Brewing Technologies also use the Omron controller. It is a hugely capable industrial controller. Here's a link to the manual, that describes along with examples some use case scenarios. http://industrial.omron.com.br/uploads/arquivos/E5CC-E5EC-Users-manual.pdf
Yup, I've seen all of those things, I just don't understand why it's a better PID than an Auber?
Does it have a better PID algorithm?
You say it's "hugely capable". Great! What capabilities are being used in these GBT and SSB systems that are above and beyond the Auber PID capability? (I'm just using Auber as an example, could be Inkbird, MyPin, etc...)
I can barley read the Grounded Brewing Technologies web site due to poor font selection and site design.
The way in which controllers work is varied and depending on your understanding, one may be easier to use than the other. It's whether you really appreciate a plug and play solution or have an interest to learn and select something which needs more complex understanding.
I gave you the link to the Omron PID manual, if you have this interest, please take a look.
doublehaul
Well-Known Member
The Omron PID series of models offers very different capabilities depending on the specific model (there are about 15), so OP's question cannot be answered without the specific model number. Just looking at the manual linked above, it is much more informative than those from Auber, MyPin, InkBird, etc.
Brew on
Brew on
I understand where you guys are coming from with your concerns about the features, and perhaps I wasn't very clear earlier but I'm more concerned about the PID algorithm.
Maybe Omron doesn't have any advantage in that regard as PID algorithms are pretty standard with regard to overshoot, undershoot, etc...
Some of the features of the Omron are neat (RS-485 comm, aux ports, event inputs, etc...) but not sure how useful those are in a mash/boil controller. It's user interface might be physically larger and perhaps more intuitive than the others.
Maybe Omron doesn't have any advantage in that regard as PID algorithms are pretty standard with regard to overshoot, undershoot, etc...
Some of the features of the Omron are neat (RS-485 comm, aux ports, event inputs, etc...) but not sure how useful those are in a mash/boil controller. It's user interface might be physically larger and perhaps more intuitive than the others.
There is no "magical algorithm" or secret Ninja A.I. necessary to heat a big slug of liquid and keep it at a set temperature. This is all marketing junk.
However, those Omron PIDs are higher quality construction than Auber, Inkbird, Mypin.
However, those Omron PIDs are higher quality construction than Auber, Inkbird, Mypin.
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I hate the UI on the My pin PIDs and I'm not crazy about the Auber either but MOST people are using the auber Ezboil units instead of traditional PID and these are distinctly better than any button press PID ive used. That is to say that the Omron may be fantastic but its not going to replace my Ezboil uniy anytime soon.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Well as discussed a couple weeks ago, there kind of is when it comes to our application... The ezboil units work fantastic out of the box and does achieve and hold temps noticable better with no tuning. It does not use the standard pid algorithm . The pids I have used all required some setup and tuning. If you had actual experience with using one you would see what other and myself mean.
My 2 cents,
In the end they all work fine and one isnt going to have enough advantage over the other (unless functionality like manual duty cycle mode is missing) to have any noticeable effect on the beer being made.
once you learn the menu structure of a particular device it can be inconvenient to try using another brand regardless. The omron is a commercial pid (likely UL listed and such) packed with a lot of features and function, many of them likely wont apply to its function here and can actually make it too cumbersome to navigate and use for some.
EDIT, Ironically I liked the mypin setup better than the ezboil, likely because I used them for years and when I went to the ezboil I found the menu structure confusing at times.
So these EZBoil controllers do have an upgraded algorithm? Would you link the discussion you mention?
Makes sense given what @augiedoggy says. Do you feel they're better because? UI, PID algorithm, etc...?
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I dont have the link offhand .. if you search recent threads both I or golfinda commented in you will find it from about 2 weeks ago.
Hrm... interesting, anyway here it is:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/sly-2362-or-ezboil.659411/#post-8462673
verboten
With Low Expectations, you're rarely disappointed
Please define "noticeably better". This is like toothpaste that promises "3x whiter" teeth. Marketing psychology.
Either the device heats a big slug of liquid to a predetermined temp and keeps it there, or it doesnt. I wonder if anyone has tested my fred flintsone PID settings against the magical ezboiler "AI" technology to see if one is noticeably better....
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
well unlike my pids out of the box, it climbs right to setpoint and holds it perfectly without overshooting regardless of whether I was doing a 5 gallon or 10 gallon brew and regardless of flow. My pid would osolate by constantly under or over correcting causing overshooting.. pids need to be tuned to correct this and then if the mass or flow changes they ideally need to be tuned again.
The ezboil doesnt need this. it just works better at what it does. also the knob is nice for boil control as well as the different mash and boil modes and built in control timers, alarms and relay control.
There is a youtube video I believe showing the performance difference between it and a auber pid.
Keep in mind all my pids including my control panel with ezboil and mypin pids are sitting in a closet because I now use an arduino and brucontrol and have tuned the pid values to work for me. I have no stake in benefiting from promoting any product over another and you know im not a fanboy of auber when it comes to the marking up and reselling of generic chinese good which they often rebrand and are often mistaken as superior products because of this and the higher prices.
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After upgrading to the ezboil I was impressed by the performance but I also realize the only area where it would make any real difference as far as temp control is in a herms or rims control situation. I used it so infequently before upgrading to brucontrol that I never quite got the menu structure down and I fought with trying to rememebr how to use it each time.
Brulosophy said this about the SSBrewTech system:
http://brulosophy.com/2018/12/20/ss-brewtech-1v-electric-brewing-system-product-review/
I'm not sure if that means the Omron controller is connected to a proportional SSR and the switch puts the controller in manual mode??
I also don't know about the ability to place the bag directly on the element because it's proportional controlled. Why does that allow you to place the bag on the element?
http://brulosophy.com/2018/12/20/ss-brewtech-1v-electric-brewing-system-product-review/
I'm not sure if that means the Omron controller is connected to a proportional SSR and the switch puts the controller in manual mode??
I also don't know about the ability to place the bag directly on the element because it's proportional controlled. Why does that allow you to place the bag on the element?
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
You can do this with pwm duty cycle mode on a regular pid as well just set the cycle time to 1 second and the pulses will turn the element on a percentage of each second effectively controlling the surface temp of the element. the mypin pids are setup this way by default in manual mode.
an internal ssvr cant possibly work the way its implying unless the high voltage load goes right through the pid and not an external ssr or ssvr somethings not right with this statement.
ssvr is what the $40 stilldragon bare bones kit uses as well.. its nothing special as far as how it works in itself unless you can set the pid to always limit the max power to the element with it in the omron pid which effectively I think this does, but then again it will also limiting the max power output of your element and is not much different than using a lower watt density element to begin with unless its easy to turn on and off when needed. ive heard of people using ssvr to limit max power on top of a pid control for more flexibity.
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Gameface
Well-Known Member
SSBrewtech and Grounded brewing are probably using that controller because they made a deal with Omron to supply it to them on terms they found favorable. I doubt it's because they felt it PIDs better. I don't know that Auber is set-up to supply commercial businesses with products. It seems they are more focused on selling to end-users on primarily hobby scale operations or small home businesses. I don't know that for sure, but I'm just guessing that Omron was a better option for reliable supply and/or warranty, support, bulk pricing.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
also likely because the omron is allowed to be used in commercial breweries due to ul listing certifications and since they already use them for the larger commercial panels they make.. many area dont allow the use of things like stc1000 controllers.. you have to use ul listed equvilents which cost many times more because of large fees involved in certifying it.. its used as a form of import control and price setting these days as much as anything.
kind of like NSF certification... a stainless table with it costs much more than a stainless table without it which many places do not allowed to be used in a commercial application. this prevent many cheaper tables from being sold direct from manufacturers as importers pay to have them certified from my understanding. sometimes this prevents unsafe knockoffs but in reality it works to do the above as well.
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Using a UL component doesnt make the assembly UL. Just keep that in mind. OP, why dont you buy an ezboil and Omron and try them out?
Thought one might stand out or that one had some magic algorithm (PID, Fuzzy, AI, etc..). Always trying to zero in on the truth. Buying both might just be the way to go.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Yes but if the components arent ul listed the panel cant be at all. Since they make panels for commercial use they would use ul components there and when it comes to pids it would be easier for them to keep the pid choice uniform regardless.
The low voltage dc components like pids are a grey area though and it depends on setup and use as to whether they even need to be from what ive read. Even the Gfci or having a plug on it changes the rules.
I believe many who have used both will agree the logic on the ezboil does work better than at least the other more common pids here.
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What is the complete model number of your unit?
Brew on
I believe it’s the Omron E5CC. I have a grounded brewing panel
Gotta agree with you there. I spent ~1/2 hour looking at the manual, and still don't have a clue.
Brew on
Gotta agree with you there. I spent ~1/2 hour looking at the manual, and still don't have a clue.
Brew on
I’m going to email Rex at grounded brewing on how to adjust this. I’ll get back with his response.
processhead
Well-Known Member
Paragraph 5-12 starting on pg.5-31 of the manual describes Manual Mode operation.
This was the only area I could find that allows you to directly manipulate the MV/Output parameter.
There is quite a bit in that paragraph to sort through, but I believe that is where you will find what you want for boil control.
Others have pointed out that brewing process control hardware does not require a lot of sophistication. In general, I would agree with that.
What you likely give up with cheap controllers is a level of overall reliability and build quality and sometimes sketchy documentation. The basic control functionality of the cheaper PID controllers is usually more than adequate for temperature control in a brewing setting.
My $.02
This was the only area I could find that allows you to directly manipulate the MV/Output parameter.
There is quite a bit in that paragraph to sort through, but I believe that is where you will find what you want for boil control.
Others have pointed out that brewing process control hardware does not require a lot of sophistication. In general, I would agree with that.
What you likely give up with cheap controllers is a level of overall reliability and build quality and sometimes sketchy documentation. The basic control functionality of the cheaper PID controllers is usually more than adequate for temperature control in a brewing setting.
My $.02
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Here’s the response I got from Rex:
“Yeah on the boil pid if you hold the <<PF button down until MANU in yellow appears on the screen.
This will put you in manual mode and will actually be in a range of 0-105. Usually around the 70-80 it a good setting but you can play with it to see.
One thing to check before doing so could be to hold the rectangular button down for at least 3 seconds to get you into the main menu. Then hit the circular arrow button until it says CP on the screen. Make sure this is set to 5. This will give you the best results in manual mode”
Sincerely,
Rex
Grounded Brewing Technologies
These PIDS didn’t come with a booklet. Only a folded up paper with 5 other languages on it
“Yeah on the boil pid if you hold the <<PF button down until MANU in yellow appears on the screen.
This will put you in manual mode and will actually be in a range of 0-105. Usually around the 70-80 it a good setting but you can play with it to see.
One thing to check before doing so could be to hold the rectangular button down for at least 3 seconds to get you into the main menu. Then hit the circular arrow button until it says CP on the screen. Make sure this is set to 5. This will give you the best results in manual mode”
Sincerely,
Rex
Grounded Brewing Technologies
These PIDS didn’t come with a booklet. Only a folded up paper with 5 other languages on it
You can find the manual here. It isn't written for a novice.
For the life of me, I can't figure out why you would even have a setting of 105% for a PWM output. You can't be more "on" than on 100% of the time. (On an analog voltage or current output in would make sense.)
I would recommend a CP setting of 1 or 2 (whatever the minimum allowed is) rather than 5 (assuming the CP setting units are seconds.) A 5 second cycle time (Control Period) would likely give you noticeable pulsing in your boil intensity. Not really a problem, but doesn't look right.
Brew on
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Smellyglove
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I switched from Sestos DS1R to Auber EZBoil310, and I still feel like the Sestos was better at maintaining temps after a good tuning. I was one of them which made Auber add some more features / rewrite some of the code to make it more usable, but still some times it doesn't fire when it's reading low temps. For me this is one reason one "PID" (Auber does not use PID algorithm) can be better than another one.
You can find the manual here. It isn't written for a novice.
For the life of me, I can't figure out why you would even have a setting of 105% for a PWM output. You can't be more "on" than on 100% of the time. (On an analog voltage or current output in would make sense.)
I would recommend a CP setting of 1 or 2 (whatever the minimum allowed is) rather than 5 (assuming the CP setting units are seconds.) A 5 second cycle time (Control Period) would likely give you noticeable pulsing in your boil intensity. Not really a problem, but doesn't look right.
Brew on
Thanks for manual link. This is what I needed
I'm working with Rex @ Grounded Brew Tech on a new panel. He's super helpful and their panels look great.
But the stock Omron PIDs don't seem to have a simple way to do the following program that EZboil has out of the box below. So I'm thinking of asking him to swap out the Omron E5CC with the Auber DSPR320.
I'm looking for your advice on:
a) a way to program the Omron to do a similar program as below? or
b) a compelling reason why Omron PID is significantly better (not just better looking
than the Auber?
EZboil Setup
But the stock Omron PIDs don't seem to have a simple way to do the following program that EZboil has out of the box below. So I'm thinking of asking him to swap out the Omron E5CC with the Auber DSPR320.
I'm looking for your advice on:
a) a way to program the Omron to do a similar program as below? or
b) a compelling reason why Omron PID is significantly better (not just better looking
than the Auber?EZboil Setup
Set ATSP = 200°F (96°C) and OUTH = 100%, set boiling output dial to 65%, and the timer to start at 210°F (99°C) for 60 minutes. When the controller is powered up, it will heat the liquid with full power capacity of the heating element. After the water temperature reaches 200°F, the power is automatically reduced to 65%. As soon the temperature climbs to 210°F, the timer is activated. Sixty minutes later, the power will be turned off and the controller will send long beeps and flashing "End" on the display. During the boil, the user can use the rotary knob to fine tune the boil at any time. There is also a programmable alarm that can be set to an important temperature to notify the user to take action. The figure below shows how the power is correlated to the temperature and time.
Figure 1. Power output correction with temperature and time. |
I'm working with Rex @ Grounded Brew Tech on a new panel. He's super helpful and their panels look great.
But the stock Omron PIDs don't seem to have a simple way to do the following program that EZboil has out of the box below. So I'm thinking of asking him to swap out the Omron E5CC with the Auber DSPR320.
I'm looking for your advice on:
a) a way to program the Omron to do a similar program as below? or
b) a compelling reason why Omron PID is significantly better (not just better looking
a. It won't.
b. It's not.
Bad Bubba
Well-Known Member
I got a Biab panel from Grounded Brewing. I decided to go with the ezboil 320 and he swapped it out for a small upcharge. Have not tested it too much. But has worked well so farI'm working with Rex @ Grounded Brew Tech on a new panel. He's super helpful and their panels look great.
But the stock Omron PIDs don't seem to have a simple way to do the following program that EZboil has out of the box below. So I'm thinking of asking him to swap out the Omron E5CC with the Auber DSPR320.
I'm looking for your advice on:
a) a way to program the Omron to do a similar program as below? or
b) a compelling reason why Omron PID is significantly better (not just better looking
EZboil Setup
Set ATSP = 200°F (96°C) and OUTH = 100%, set boiling output dial to 65%, and the timer to start at 210°F (99°C) for 60 minutes. When the controller is powered up, it will heat the liquid with full power capacity of the heating element. After the water temperature reaches 200°F, the power is automatically reduced to 65%. As soon the temperature climbs to 210°F, the timer is activated. Sixty minutes later, the power will be turned off and the controller will send long beeps and flashing "End" on the display. During the boil, the user can use the rotary knob to fine tune the boil at any time. There is also a programmable alarm that can be set to an important temperature to notify the user to take action. The figure below shows how the power is correlated to the temperature and time.
Figure 1. Power output correction with temperature and time.
