Old school lagers

[unionrdr]

Here we go again with version four of my Hopped & Confused hybrid lager series. I've been playing around with this recipe in order to re-create the American Premium Lagers I remember the flavors of from the mid-50's to the mid-60's. That " real beer flavor" I've mentioned that got me started on this home brewing adventure to start with. Flavors of the likes of Duqusene, Blatz, Stroh's, Carling black label, etc. Too bad I don't have decent temp control to try some real lager yeasts, but some kind of fermenter jacket & some frozen ice packs from yeast shipments might do. I'll still be using WL029 kolsch yeast, since it gives lager-like balance & crispness at ale temps for the time being. Anyway, here's recipe, version four;
3lbs) Bohemian pilsner malt (Weyermann)
1lb) Pale malt ( Weyermann)
1lb) Carahell ( Weyermann)
2lbs, 8ozs) Plain golden light DME ( Briess)
.75oz) German tradition, hop, pellet, bittering, 60 minutes
1oz) Styrian Golding ( Savinja Golding), hop, pellet, 15 minutes
WL029 kolsch yeast, starter
Estimated gravity-OG 1.049 out of 1.042-1.050 range
Estimated FG- 1.012
IBU's- 23 IBU out of range of 18-25 IBU
Color- 5.4 SRM out of range of 2-6 SRM
Estimated ABV%- 4.8% out of range of 4.6-6%
Single infusion, medium body, batch sparge
Single stage lager, international pale lager, what premium American lagers basically came from back then. I tried to step out of myself a little this time to try something a bit different to see if it gets me closer to those old school lager flavors. It's been tough going, since the companies that now own these old brands are very tight-lipped about them even yet.

 

[Toga]

Most American lagers have corn and or rice as an adjunct. You may want to experiment with adding one or both.

If you have room, I highly recommend getting a fridge and temp controller. Temp control makes repeating a recipe so much easier plus you can use lager strains. I used the fast turnaround lager method from here http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/ for my last lager and it turned out amazing and cut the time needed by one to two months.

 

[unionrdr]

I wanted to go back to a time when the adjuncts weren't used, or at least not as much. when I was a kid, the beers were darker gold & had a lot more flavor than their modern counterparts. Definitely need some cheap temp control that doesn't involve water. Read the page, I'll definitely try this method!

 

[beersk]

What makes you think they didn't use corn or rice back then? Sounds like you want to do a German pilsner or Dortmunder with an American lager yeast. I don't think you'll brew anything you haven't had before, flavor-wise.
I'd also suggesting trying Saflager 34/70, start it in the upper 50's if you can. That yeast is really clean into the 60's.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

It is said that the early German immigrants like Strohs used corn or rice to cut the protein levels of the American six row barley. My understanding is that American lagers probably had adjuncts from the beginning but certainly the 50s and 60s recipes you remember. Probably cluster hops and maybe some noble hops.

 

[unionrdr]

Well, it just seemed like the beers then were darker gold & had more body & flavor than they do now. Seems like a lot more corn & rice are used now versus then, if they did. Can't get them to talk. Idk...maybe I'm just being a foolish old man again & should just forget it, since they might even have used brewer's malts we can't get anyway. I've gotten Euro-tasting examples so far, but not that flavor I remember. Startin' to make me wonder if I'm beating dead horses...

 

[Weezy]

I skip the crystal/cara malts, mash low, and use a sweet yeast, s-23. It mimics the poor fermentation of the old school east coast lager houses imho ny leaving a sweetness in an otherwise dry beer. 34/70 is too sulfury.

This is my crossover beer: 40% pale, 30% pils, 20% corn, 10% rice, sterling.

 

[JKaranka]

The US has always used masses of adjuncts. The use of maize went up a lot after WW2 as well. Sugars were used rarely compared to the UK.

 

[unionrdr]

I'd like to know where you guys are finding this ingredient stuff? I've been digging a lot for some time now & found tons of history. But not much about specific ingredients. * found this on wiki; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_lager Some used no adjuncts, but it appears I was mislead by other site's histories. It also appears rice came later after corn. Corn was indeed used to cut the higher tannic acid & protein content of the American 6-row. I'm using 2-row, so it seems it wouldn't be needed (corn)? I just wwnna find a modern way to get the old school colors & flavors as I remember them...

 

[z-bob]

I thought that "old-school" flavor (which I'm just barely old enough to remember) was from Cluster bittering hops, and moderate amounts of corn adjunct. Then maybe use just a little noble hops or Willamette for finishing.

I brewed a cream ale like that a few months ago, but had a glass carboy disaster and lost the whole batch. (it smelled right, tho')

 

[WouldBeBrewmaster]

Well, it just seemed like the beers then were darker gold & had more body & flavor than they do now. Seems like a lot more corn & rice are used now versus then, if they did. Can't get them to talk. Idk...maybe I'm just being a foolish old man again & should just forget it, since they might even have used brewer's malts we can't get anyway. I've gotten Euro-tasting examples so far, but not that flavor I remember. Startin' to make me wonder if I'm beating dead horses...

They very well would have been darker with more malt flavor and body. I'd suggest using corn or rice, but keeping them at 20% of the grist. Current macros can be as high as 40% adjuncts.

I would suggest using Cluster hops as they were the American hop until current American varieties started to emerge in the 1970s. American noble-type hops like American-grown Hallertau, Mt. Hood, Crystal, and Liberty would also work well to get the type of flavor you are going for.

 

[unionrdr]

Cluster for bittering & flavor, or?...

 

[z-bob]

Well, it just seemed like the beers then were darker gold & had more body & flavor than they do now. Seems like a lot more corn & rice are used now versus then, if they did. Can't get them to talk. Idk...maybe I'm just being a foolish old man again & should just forget it, since they might even have used brewer's malts we can't get anyway. I've gotten Euro-tasting examples so far, but not that flavor I remember. Startin' to make me wonder if I'm beating dead horses...

George Fix wrote articles about pre-prohibition beer styles. You might want to look them up, then extrapolate (reduce the IBU's, but not all the way to current BMC levels)

 

[botigol]

Midwest lists this in their article about malts:
"There are also flavor differences between 2-row and 6-row and it seems that most brewers feel 2-row malt produces a fuller, maltier flavor and 6-row malt produces a grainier flavor in the finished beer."

It seems like I have run across this before, so it seems like you may want to switch over to 6-row since you are going for authenticity. The other thing that I found was reference to beers in the 60s was that they had less adjunct and more hops than now, but didn't list any amounts.

 

[z-bob]

They very well would have been darker with more malt flavor and body. I'd suggest using corn or rice, but keeping them at 20% of the grist. Current macros can be as high as 40% adjuncts.

I would suggest using Cluster hops as they were the American hop until current American varieties started to emerge in the 1970s. American noble-type hops like American-grown Hallertau, Mt. Hood, Crystal, and Liberty would also work well to get the type of flavor you are going for.

I wouldn't use any rice; it has no character and you might as well use sugar. I agree with everything else you said.

I looked up my previous recipe and it was 85% pale ale malt (because I didn't have 2-row or 6-row), 15% corn flakes, and 35 IBU's of Cluster hops.

 

[unionrdr]

I'm re-working the recipe now, after weighing out dextrose for the Whiskely stout to bottle it. I used German tradition for bittering, Styrian Golding for flavor. Maybe switch both to the Cluster mentioned earlier? I remember reading one or two hops being most used, but forgot what they were? New recipe;
3lbs) 6-row pale malt
1lb) pale malt (wyermann)
1lb) Carahell (weyermann)
11.5oz) corn, flaked
2lbs) golden light DME ( briess)
.5oz) cluster hops, 60 minutes
1oz) styrian Golding, 15 minutes
WL029 yeast, two viles in starter
OG-1.047, FG-1.012, IBU-20.2, color-5.2 SRM, ABV 4.6%

 

[JKaranka]

I'm basing that on stuff I've read about usage of malts and adjuncts in grists in the US:
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/materials-used-in-brewing-in-usa-1941.html
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/materials-used-in-brewing-in-usa-1955.html

There is some guidance in brewing manuals:
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/american-beer-styles-of-1930s-mild.html


I think adjuncts are much maligned in the USA. There are lots of things that make big industrial lagers not taste like those from back in the day:
1) Adjuncts
2) Enzymes
3) Hop extracts
4) Weird, sped-up lagering processes
5) Lower bittering / hopping rates
6) High gravity brewing
7) The market, e.g., that is the flavour they aim for

Just assuming it's all about having 20/30% of adjuncts in there is completely missing the point. Lots of good beers have adjuncts in them, like most classic Belgian beers, many British beers, all those American cream ales and what-have-you, etc. Reducing it all to just malign adjuncts (which can improve a beer by increasing / reducing body, making it clearer and more stable, etc.) is like blaming the goalkeeper every time your team loses a match.

 

[WouldBeBrewmaster]

I wouldn't use any rice; it has no character and you might as well use sugar. I agree with everything else you said.

I looked up my previous recipe and it was 85% pale ale malt (because I didn't have 2-row or 6-row), 15% corn flakes, and 35 IBU's of Cluster hops.

Rice as opposed to corn will give the beer a drier finish. Think Japanese Rice Lagers that you find a sushi restaurants. Corn, when used in high amounts can provide a sweet quality. It has been a long time since I have brewed with rice, but that's my recollection.

In Brewing Classic Styles, Jamil suggests using rice syrup when brewing extract beers that use adjuncts. In an all-grain batch flaked rice works just fine.

 

[jleiii]

George Fix wrote articles about pre-prohibition beer styles. You might want to look them up, then extrapolate (reduce the IBU's, but not all the way to current BMC levels)

There is quite a bit of info out there on pre-prohibition recipes. I'm doing a lager based on one of them for a Beer Baron event in Philadelphia this October. Corn and 6-row was the standard back then.