Oktoberfest

[jakwi]

So I've been considering trying my hand at a lager. I've been strictly an Ale guy for 10 plus years. I have all the equipment so theoretically I should be able to do it effectively, but I have a couple of questions

Starters
I see many mentions of big starters but not much detail. Is this essentially the same as an ale starter? I have a 1l Erlenmeyer flask, and a stir plate. I usually make a 1.040 DME light Pilsner wort, and let it do it's thing on my counter. Is any temperature control required for a lager starter? Is a lager starter any different than an ale starter?

Mashing

Protein Rest

The recipe I'm looking, at AG24
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/ag24-oktoberfest/, calls for a protein rest at 122f followed by a regular mash at 152. I have a 10 gallon home depot cooler, so I don't have any idea how to accomplish this. I suppose I could drain it out, heat it up again and put it back with the grains, but dang what a pain. How necessary is this step? What are the downsides of skipping it?

Fermentation

So I chill to 62 Pitch, set the temp to 50 let it ferment for how long typically? The recipe says 20 days, but it seems like everything I read in the forum indicates that it really takes longer, then raise to 65 for a diactyl rest for a couple of days, then Lager for a month or more.

Lagering

Can I rack it to a keg for this step? If so do I carb it, or just let it sit uncarbed? Does it need an air lock?

If I can't rack it to the keg then all told 7 to 8 weeks means I can't brew anything else for at least two months. (we need an empty beer mug emoji)

Is this typical of the process?

Seems like I really need a lagering fridge separate from my fermentation fridge and a yet another sanke for a lager fermenter.

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[Raoul_Duke_PhD]

You're definitely gonna need a much bigger Erlenmeyer. You'll pretty much make a small beer just to grow enough yeast for a average lager. Starters will average from 2-4 liters, unless you wanna buy several packs of yeast. You can get away with two dry yeast packs for 5 gallons on most of the average sized lagers.

I would skip the step mash unless you have the proper equipment to do so. You could probably do it, but its gonna be a pain in the ass. I'd stick with a single infusion.

The attenuation will varie from beer to beer and yeast to yeast. You just have to check gravity. Most are done in about 2-3 weeks. Then, you can raise 5-10 degrees for a diacetyl rest for a few days; that's only if you sample and taste diacetyl. I hardly ever get it.

You can rack to keg, but I always leave mine on yeast. It doesn't hurt.

 

[brewcat]

I'd go with at least 2 dry yeast packs to make things easy. When fermentation is finished; just rack to the keg, set in fridge and carb & lager at the same time.

 

[casualbrewer]

Lagers aren't much harder than an ale. If I were you I would just do a single infusion mash, pitch 2 packets of 34/70 for simplicity, and ferment mid to upper 50's. Really 34/70 can ferment clean into the mid 60's if something goes wrong. My schedule with 34/70 is 5 days upper 50's, 5 days mid 60's, and 5 days cold crash at 30 before kegging with gelatin. Lager for 2 weeks and it will be clear and crisp.

 

[jakwi]

its gonna be a pain in the ass. I'd stick with a single infusion.

This was exactly my thought. Once I get my Hermes system set up this will be no sweat, but that is at least a year or two away. Would it be better to change the grain bill to adapt to not having a protein rest? I guess I'm not clear on what grains are considered fully modified, and which aren't.

So as far as starters go, 3 to 4 L before decanting? so .5l of slurry after? I suppose I could make several starters over the course of a couple of weeks and accumulate them. Or use Dry yeast like Brewcat suggested.

This is basically what happens every time I start to look at doing a lager. I get fired up, and then I start looking at the details and excitement turns in to dread. Ha!

I'd go with at least 2 dry yeast packs to make things easy. When fermentation is finished; just rack to the keg, set in fridge and carb & lager at the same time.

The reason I want to keg it is to clear the fermenter/ferm chamber so that I can continue brewing other things. Sounds like I can do that. Thanks

 

[ba-brewer]

Big starter means you need 1.5million cells/mL which is twice the yeast needed for a ale of equal gravity. Brewunited and mrmalty have yeast pitch rate calculators.

I use a 1 gal jug to build my lager starters, takes a bit of patience to get it positioned right with the domed bottom.

I lager and carb in the keg at the same time to free up the fermentor.

 

[brewing_clown]

So I chill to 62 Pitch, set the temp to 50 let it ferment for how long typically?

Try to pitch cold. I'd pitch at 50, or maybe even a couple of degrees colder. As far as how long - I usually wait until it's about 5 gravity points away from FG before warming up for diacetyl. However, if you pitch cold there is usually not much diacetyl, if any. Warm pitching will give you diacetyl.

Good luck.

 

[Kent88]

So I've been considering trying my hand at a lager. I've been strictly an Ale guy for 10 plus years. I have all the equipment so theoretically I should be able to do it effectively, but I have a couple of questions

Starters
I see many mentions of big starters but not much detail. Is this essentially the same as an ale starter? I have a 1l Erlenmeyer flask, and a stir plate. I usually make a 1.040 DME light Pilsner wort, and let it do it's thing on my counter. Is any temperature control required for a lager starter? Is a lager starter any different than an ale starter?

How much lager are you making (final volume)? Maybe you'd need a larger volume of starter, but that would be it. I've heard that you can let the starter sit at ale temps but I'd try to keep it a little below room temp.

Mashing

Protein Rest

The recipe I'm looking, at AG24
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/ag24-oktoberfest/, calls for a protein rest at 122f followed by a regular mash at 152. I have a 10 gallon home depot cooler, so I don't have any idea how to accomplish this. I suppose I could drain it out, heat it up again and put it back with the grains, but dang what a pain. How necessary is this step? What are the downsides of skipping it?

You want a really tricky way to get the temp up? Decoction. Doubting you want to go that route I'd say that if you need less grain in the mash tun so you can do more infusions I'd substitute some pils malt with extract. These calculators are helpful for finding your mash tun's capacity and how to add infusions to get to the temps you want.

All this said, you don't really need a protein rest, you can just do an alpha and beta sacch' rest for about an hour.

Fermentation

So I chill to 62 Pitch, set the temp to 50 let it ferment for how long typically? The recipe says 20 days, but it seems like everything I read in the forum indicates that it really takes longer, then raise to 65 for a diactyl rest for a couple of days, then Lager for a month or more.

If you have a healthy starter you shouldn't need 20 days. Keep the temp around 50F to 52F through krausen. I'm sure other people would say keep it cool for longer, but if you can keep it cool through krausen then you should be in good shape. If you really want to get technical some will tell you to wait to do a diactyl rest until gravity drops to a certain point.

Lagering

Can I rack it to a keg for this step? If so do I carb it, or just let it sit uncarbed? Does it need an air lock?

If I can't rack it to the keg then all told 7 to 8 weeks means I can't brew anything else for at least two months.

Is this typical of the process?

Seems like I really need a lagering fridge separate from my fermentation fridge and a yet another sanke for a lager fermenter.

I don't keg, but I believe that you can lager in keg, carb'd, under presser. I lager in carboy (secondary) or in bottle after carbonating. It is just like a secondary where you keep the temps just above the temperature where your beer would start to freeze or get slushy.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I see many mentions of big starters but not much detail. Is this essentially the same as an ale starter? I have a 1l Erlenmeyer flask, and a stir plate. I usually make a 1.040 DME light Pilsner wort, and let it do it's thing on my counter. Is any temperature control required for a lager starter? Is a lager starter any different than an ale starter?

Only difference is you typically need more yeast to start. I.e. more like a 4L starter decanted.

Personally I'd just say go with SafLager W-34/70. It's an excellent yeast (dry version of the Weihenstephan strain). Buy 2 packs for 5 gallons.

Protein Rest

You can do multiple infusions by starting your mash thick and adding boiling water to raise the temp. Or you can do decoction, which some people claim is the bee's knees...

Personally I do a single-infusion on my Oktoberfestbier. Never had an issue and it drops clear.

So I chill to 62 Pitch, set the temp to 50 let it ferment for how long typically? The recipe says 20 days, but it seems like everything I read in the forum indicates that it really takes longer, then raise to 65 for a diactyl rest for a couple of days, then Lager for a month or more.

A lot of possible ways to go. I personally like to pitch colder. I'll usually chill to maybe 45 degrees, pitch and let it rise to 49-50, and hold it there about 12 days. Then raise the temp up to 72 for D-rest. Cold crash it down as cold as I can get for lagering.

Lagering
Can I rack it to a keg for this step? If so do I carb it, or just let it sit uncarbed? Does it need an air lock?

You can lager in the keg while carbonating. Basically lagering is just letting the beer drop as clean as bright as possible. Generally you want it AS COLD AS POSSIBLE, so it'll take longer to lager if you do it in your serving kegerator, but you can lager in your serving fridge at 40 degrees if you want.

Heck, if you really want it done faster, you can just cheat and use gelatin.
http://brulosophy.com/methods/lager-method/

Only issue with kegging it *before* you lager is that anything that drops will be on the bottom of your keg. That's not an issue if you keep the keg in one spot, but that stuff can get disturbed when you move kegs around.

Seems like I really need a lagering fridge separate from my fermentation fridge and a yet another sanke for a lager fermenter.

Not really... As mentioned you can keg it and put it in your serving fridge, assuming you have room in there. And if you use gelatin, you can actually drink it a lot faster than if you do a "true" lagering process.

 

[Kent88]

Or you can do decoction, which some people claim is the bee's knees...

Are decoction mashes becoming popular again? I thought that with homebrew bigwigs like Denny Conn downplaying the practice that it wasn't gaining any followers.

I tried one late last year and the beer turned out pretty good, but I just don't know if it was so good that I want to keep doing all that extra work. And I've read that adding some melanoidin (spelling?) malt can get those flavors in there without all the extra work.

Although with the limited space in my mash tun it was a good way to get up to the temperature of the next rest rather than by infusion.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I've made a California common and a Märzen. My gear is rudimentary, but it wasn't that much different than ale. It took a little longer and I kept it colder. The Märzen turned out great. Other hobbies I've done have a "big leap" thing, like rock climbing going from the climbing gym to real cliffs outside using trad gear. Going from ale to lager is not a huge leap.

 

[jakwi]

This has been really helpful, gives me a real world perspective. It does seem like a big jump, but I think you're right, it's probably easier than it looks. It took me a long time to make the jump to all grain for the same reason.

I might give the dry yeast a try since I don't really have a way to make a 4 L starter, aside from making 4 1 L starters!

The rest of it I think I can manage with my existing equipment. I'm definitely not going to try decoction, my brew day is long enough already. In fact I'll probably just skip the protein rest altogether, maybe next time.

Gelatin is the way to go in my mind. I started using it a year or two ago, and it is amazing. I don't know if it's cheating, but it definitely works and I can't see any downside. I'm glad to hear it's effective with lager's also.

As for volume I tend to do 11 gallon batches. I have eKeggles for my HTL and BK and a 10 Gallon Home Depot Cooler for my Mash Tun.

Thanks for all the guidance!

 

[booth74]

I would make sure to do the D-rest while the yeast are still active, typically 2-5 points before your final gravity, especially if you do not use 34/70 or wlp830 ect.... These general fermentation schedules get people into trouble.

 

[jakwi]

I would make sure to do the D-rest while the yeast are still active, typically 2-5 points before your final gravity, especially if you do not use 34/70 or wlp830 ect.... These general fermentation schedules get people into trouble.

Sounds reasonable, and not hard to accomplish. Thanks

 

[Raoul_Duke_PhD]

This was exactly my thought. Once I get my Hermes system set up this will be no sweat, but that is at least a year or two away. Would it be better to change the grain bill to adapt to not having a protein rest? I guess I'm not clear on what grains are considered fully modified, and which aren't.

So as far as starters go, 3 to 4 L before decanting? so .5l of slurry after? I suppose I could make several starters over the course of a couple of weeks and accumulate them. Or use Dry yeast like Brewcat suggested.

This is basically what happens every time I start to look at doing a lager. I get fired up, and then I start looking at the details and excitement turns in to dread. Ha!



The reason I want to keg it is to clear the fermenter/ferm chamber so that I can continue brewing other things. Sounds like I can do that. Thanks

Personally, I would just use the W34/70; its a nice, neutral lager yeast. Two packs usually does the job.

I posted a thread several days ago about my process. That way you don't have to decant at all. I make the starter from the wort I am gonna use. Read up on it here.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=631830

 

[SpeedYellow]

O'fest is a really difficult beer, but here's the biggest issues I see for you:
1) Recipe. Realize the recipe you've selected will give a VERY sweet, bready, full, deep, malty beer. I'd find it disgusting, but that's just my dislike of Munich when over 20-30%. The recipe is "American"-style O'fest, as opposed to a German style, which is more like 80-90% pils and the rest Munich, for example.

2) Hops. Too light or heavy and you've blown it, so you'll really need to rely on your experience here (with your system and preferences) instead of a recipe.

3) Lagering. Esp. for that recipe, it'll need a good 4 weeks minimum lagering in the keg. A simple pils can get by with less, but not that recipe!

Your process should be:

• 7 days fermentation (assuming you pitched enough healthy yeast)
• 3-5 days d-rest
• keg it, purge keg with co2, and apply serving pressure to carbonate.
• Wait 4-7 weeks
• Drink

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I might give the dry yeast a try since I don't really have a way to make a 4 L starter, aside from making 4 1 L starters!

...

As for volume I tend to do 11 gallon batches.

Yeah, for 11 gallons you need even MORE yeast. A 4L starter might not even cut it.

I do 11 gallon batches as well. I actually just ordered ingredients for my O'fest. I ordered 4 packs of W-34/70 for 11 gallons of wort.

Yeah, it's pricey. But like you I only have a 2L erlenmeyer flask. I would need probably 1.5gal starter to properly pitch lager yeast, and that would probably require stepping up at least once (first starter in 2L erlenmeyer, then step up to 6-8L starter). That's not worth the time, equipment, and effort IMHO, when I can just compensate by buying more dry yeast.

BTW *this* is the perfect time to then follow the beer with another lager to make use of that yeast cake. If you're going to spend that much money on dry yeast, might as well get 2 batches out of it. I often will follow my O'fest up with a schwarzbier.

 

[jakwi]

Personally, I would just use the W34/70; its a nice, neutral lager yeast. Two packs usually does the job.

I posted a thread several days ago about my process. That way you don't have to decant at all. I make the starter from the wort I am gonna use. Read up on it here.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=631830

thanks I'll check it out

Realize the recipe you've selected will give a VERY sweet, bready, full, deep, malty beer. I'd find it disgusting, but that's just my dislike of Munich when over 20-30%.

Well that definitely gives me pause, but on the other hand I really like malty beers, I brew everything to that side of the curve but pretty close to neutral. Is there a commercial version that is similar to this recipe that I could try?

thanks for the help

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

1) Recipe. Realize the recipe you've selected will give a VERY sweet, bready, full, deep, malty beer. I'd find it disgusting, but that's just my dislike of Munich when over 20-30%. The recipe is "American"-style O'fest, as opposed to a German style, which is more like 80-90% pils and the rest Munich, for example.

Well that definitely gives me pause, but on the other hand I really like malty beers, I brew everything to that side of the curve but pretty close to neutral. Is there a commercial version that is similar to this recipe that I could try?

I think the confusion is over what an O'fest traditionally *was* vs what a modern Festbier has become. As SpeedYellow points out, a modern beer served at the Oktoberfest isn't the Marzen-style that an O'fest used to be. It's more of a pale gold lager.

https://gotbeer.com/hop-chatter/oktoberfest-marzen-or-festbier
https://learn.kegerator.com/marzen-oktoberfest/
https://learn.kegerator.com/festbier/

My understanding of the history is that this is a change that slowly occurred over time, as drinkers became more used to pilsners and other lighter beers of that type, and so the "Festbier" was born. In fact, the 2015 BJCP style guidelines now differentiate between Festbier (4B) and Marzen (6A).

That said, I don't like your linked recipe. I don't think you need Caramunich, Aromatic, or Biscuit to make a Marzen. The use of Munich and potentially addition of Vienna will give you enough of an amber color, and Munich itself is a very rich malt that will give you a deep malty flavor *without* being sweet.

Below is my O'fest recipe, which is more of a traditional Marzen, that I've been making annually since ~2012. (Note: water adjustments are not included as I do those on a separate spreadsheet. But a very clean beer like this would be the time to use RO and water additions if you're not doing so already.)

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
10.00 lb              Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM)             Grain         1        50.0 %        
5.00 lb               Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM)            Grain         2        25.0 %        
5.00 lb               Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM)                    Grain         3        25.0 %        
3.00 oz               Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.60 %] - Boil  Hop           4        25.8 IBUs     
4.0 pkg               Saflager Lager (DCL/Fermentis #W-34/70)  Yeast         5        -             


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 20.00 lb
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Mash In           Add 36.00 qt of water at 162.5 F        155.0 F       75 min

Edit: One more thing... Munich can vary in color. For this, I'm using Weyermann Munich from morebeer.com, which they claim is 5-7L. Munich can sometimes end up in the 10L or 20L range... So that will have a BIG bearing on the color of the finished beer.

 

[SpeedYellow]

...Is there a commercial version that is similar to this recipe that I could try?

I don't know of any commercial lagers that are 50% Munich, 48% Pilsner malts. German O'fests won't be remotely similar, nor will most mass-produced U.S. O'fests. Best bet is probably a micro-brew/brewpub Oktoberfests (unavailable for another month). Or possibly a doppelbock, which are often mostly Munich.

Since you're unfamiliar with a beer with 50% Munich, this may be a high risk recipe for you. Set your expectations accordingly!

 

[ba-brewer]

@OP Gordon Biersch makes a marzen I think it is a standard offering, not sure if that is available where you live.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

One route you could take would be to make a relatively small unoffensive lager and then pitch the slurry from that for your Oktoberfest. That way you can use liquid yeast if there is a particular one you would like to try. The other benefit of doing it that way would be that you can make a lager without the high expectations you'll have for you Oktoberfest. Then when it's time to make the Oktoberfest you'll have the experience from making the smaller lager.

 

[Kent88]

I feel like there is some negativity starting to creep in here.

The recipe looks alright, you have something like 10 years of experience brewing ales, you probably came into this with some idea of what it would be like to brew a lager.

You'll be fine. Unless you're really nitpicky and you absolutely must have it be identical to the authentic stuff you get in Europe. A little variation is fine and can still make for a darn good beer.

If you decide to go another route, @bwarbiany seems to have a decent recipe. I have brewed Munich & Hallertau SMaSH lagers to marzen strength and IBU levels and had them turn out great. A style nerd would probably knock it as not having an authentic marzen grain bill, but I didn't care as I wasn't entering it in a contest. Wort made from 100% munich malt can make great beer.

 

[jakwi]

Yeah, for 11 gallons you need even MORE yeast. A 4L starter might not even cut it.

I do 11 gallon batches as well. I actually just ordered ingredients for my O'fest. I ordered 4 packs of W-34/70 for 11 gallons of wort.

Yeah, it's pricey. But like you I only have a 2L erlenmeyer flask. I would need probably 1.5gal starter to properly pitch lager yeast, and that would probably require stepping up at least once (first starter in 2L erlenmeyer, then step up to 6-8L starter). That's not worth the time, equipment, and effort IMHO, when I can just compensate by buying more dry yeast.

BTW *this* is the perfect time to then follow the beer with another lager to make use of that yeast cake. If you're going to spend that much money on dry yeast, might as well get 2 batches out of it. I often will follow my O'fest up with a schwarzbier.

No doubt, that is a ton of yeast. Not only would I need a larger jar, but also a bigger stirplate. I do love a good schwarzbier, in fact it's one of my favorite styles

 

[jakwi]

My understanding of the history is that this is a change that slowly occurred over time, as drinkers became more used to pilsners and other lighter beers of that type, and so the "Festbier" was born. In fact, the 2015 BJCP style guidelines now differentiate between Festbier (4B) and Marzen (6A).

That said, I don't like your linked recipe. I don't think you need Caramunich, Aromatic, or Biscuit to make a Marzen. The use of Munich and potentially addition of Vienna will give you enough of an amber color, and Munich itself is a very rich malt that will give you a deep malty flavor *without* being sweet.

Ok, so to be sure I understand the AG24 recipe I linked originally is more of a traditional Oktoberfest (Festbier) beer, where as your proposed recipe is more of a traditional (Marzen) style? I guess I'm not super familiar with the subtleties between the two styles. I know I've had and enjoyed the Sam Adams Oktoberfest, and I'm sure I've tried others, but honestly at the moment I can't think of one to name.

What don't you like, from a taste perspective, about the AG24 vs your recipe. No judgement on my side I am just really going in somewhat blind and trying to decide what I'm more likely to enjoy.

In general my tastes tend towards a good Malty Brown, Stouts, porters and Swarzbier's. I really like 1554, which is unavailable in Florida. I don't really like super bitter IPAs or the like.

As for water I use RO, and the Brewcipher spreadsheet which has a water calculation tab. I've read that one of the keys to a good lager is to keep the sulfates low, but I'm not sure exactly how low.

 

[jakwi]

I feel like there is some negativity starting to creep in here.

The recipe looks alright, you have something like 10 years of experience brewing ales, you probably came into this with some idea of what it would be like to brew a lager.

You'll be fine. Unless you're really nitpicky and you absolutely must have it be identical to the authentic stuff you get in Europe. A little variation is fine and can still make for a darn good beer.

If you decide to go another route, @bwarbiany seems to have a decent recipe. I have brewed Munich & Hallertau SMaSH lagers to marzen strength and IBU levels and had them turn out great. A style nerd would probably knock it as not having an authentic marzen grain bill, but I didn't care as I wasn't entering it in a contest. Wort made from 100% munich malt can make great beer.

Good points, I've been brewing long enough that I don't have to look at process notes to get me through my brew day. When I started it was: Step 1 heat the strike water, Check! :rockin:

So I'm comfortable with Ale's. I've read a lot about the Lager brewing process which doesn't seem all that different, although this thread has been very informative, so thanks to all whom have contributed.

That being said I often feel like I'm out on an island. I'm not part of a club, and none of my friends are interested in brewing so it's really a solo activity for me, even my dog would prefer to be inside.

I'm not a "Style Nerd", I just like good beer. My goal was really to try something new, from a brewing standpoint, but not so much from a flavor standpoint. So of the two recipe's which is more likely to appeal to my preference of Malt forward beers?

 

[Kent88]

Looking just at the grain bill, @bwarbiany has the maltier grain bill. It does have more IBUs, too, to help balance that out. It has a simpler grain bill, and I personally like balanced beers that lean a little more towards malty, so if I was to make one of these, I'd choose that one.

 

[SpeedYellow]

...
I'm not a "Style Nerd", I just like good beer. My goal was really to try something new, from a brewing standpoint, but not so much from a flavor standpoint. So of the two recipe's which is more likely to appeal to my preference of Malt forward beers?

The two recipes' grain bills are nearly identical, practically speaking:

1) Yours: 50% Munich, 48% Pils.
2) bwarbiany's: 50% Munich, 25% Pils, 25% Vienna.

So both of those are the tradition O'fest style, i.e. American O'fest, i.e. traditional Maertzen.

Recipe #2 has a smidge more hops (13.8 vs 12.2 aau), but be careful with hops. You may find that hops clash with, instead of "balance," Munich malt. Personal opinion.

BJCP gives some commercial examples of Maertzen: Buergerliches Ur-Saalfelder, Hacker-Pschorr Original Oktoberfest, Paulaner Oktoberfest, Weltenburg Kloster Anno 1050.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

What don't you like, from a taste perspective, about the AG24 vs your recipe. No judgement on my side I am just really going in somewhat blind and trying to decide what I'm more likely to enjoy.

In general my tastes tend towards a good Malty Brown, Stouts, porters and Swarzbier's. I really like 1554, which is unavailable in Florida. I don't really like super bitter IPAs or the like.

Perhaps it's just my own preference, but my thought is that you're looking for a very clean, pure beer when you make most German lagers. Using a lot of Munich will make your beer malty without making it sweet. Caramunich is adding sweetness and color. Aromatic is there to make it "taste malty", but why is it needed? And it's only 4 oz. Same with Biscuit. Biscuit should give you a bit of a toasty, bready note, but I find I get some of that just from pilsner malt. And again it's only 4 oz.

I just don't see why those malts will add anything to the beer that you're not getting with a clean malt bill of base malts.

The two recipes' grain bills are nearly identical, practically speaking:

1) Yours: 50% Munich, 46% Pils.
2) bwarbiany's: 50% Munich, 25% Pils, 25% Vienna.

So both of those are the tradition O'fest style, i.e. American O'fest, i.e. traditional Maertzen.

Just changed slightly as the AG24 recipe is 4% specialty malt, so it's only 46% pils.

FYI I think a simple 50/50 of Munich and Pils would be delicious as well... I just don't think 4% of specialty malt actually adds anything.

I do like a little more bitterness. But you can see that both the AG24 recipe and mine only use a 60 minute addition. An earlier version of my recipe used some light aroma hopping, which was completely unnecessary.

 

[SpeedYellow]

I just don't see why those malts will add anything to the beer that you're not getting with a clean malt bill of base malts.

Just changed slightly as the AG24 recipe is 4% specialty malt, so it's only 46% pils.

Thanks for the correction. Agreed that those 4% specialty malts add very little. Also violates my 3-malts-per-recipe rule.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Thanks for the correction. Agreed that those 4% specialty malts add very little. Also violates my 3-malts-per-recipe rule.

Then you'd hate my milk stout!

 

[Kent88]

And "my" Oatmeal-Cream stout recipe!

 

[BrewerE]

See this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=591864

The links in the second post show the difference between the Festbier and the Marzen

I brewed a Marzen last year and used only Munich and Pilsner.

 

[Lefou]

Oktoberfest Marzen clone

5.75lb. Pilsner
5.5lb. Munich 10L or 20L (depending on your style preference for lighter to dark)
2oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh (nominal 3.75AAU) @ 40-50mins for a 5.25gal batch
S-23 or 34/70 dry yeast

4gal mash water treated with 1tsp each CaCal2 and CaSO4, add about .75 tsp NaHCO3 to balance RO water for acidity in the mash. Step mash from 145F to 160F.

 

[jakwi]

Bwarbiany,

Thank you for taking the time to elaborate. Your descriptions are really helpful. I'm going to do some more reading and decide what to do. I still have a couple of weeks before my fermenter is empty again.

 

[RedlegEd]

Bwarbiany,
Thank you for taking the time to elaborate. Your descriptions are really helpful. I'm going to do some more reading and decide what to do. I still have a couple of weeks before my fermenter is empty again.

Hi. I've been following this thread, and just wanted to let you know I think whatever you make will be great. You've certainly got the experience, so now all you need to do is make it. I've got to warn you though, once you turn out a killer lager (esp a Fest or Märzen,) it's like going on a second honeymoon. It'll re-ignite the obsession and you'll want to make another. Ed

 

[jakwi]

Hi. I've been following this thread, and just wanted to let you know I think whatever you make will be great. You've certainly got the experience, so now all you need to do is make it. I've got to warn you though, once you turn out a killer lager (esp a Fest or Märzen,) it's like going on a second honeymoon. It'll re-ignite the obsession and you'll want to make another. Ed

Hey Thanks! I'm sure it will, I've often turned out great beers that weren't what I was expecting. I have a wonderful porter on tap that was supposed to be a Brown ale for instance. I'll post the results once I get it done!

 

[Raoul_Duke_PhD]

Hi. I've been following this thread, and just wanted to let you know I think whatever you make will be great. You've certainly got the experience, so now all you need to do is make it. I've got to warn you though, once you turn out a killer lager (esp a Fest or Märzen,) it's like going on a second honeymoon. It'll re-ignite the obsession and you'll want to make another. Ed

Agreed. Lagers open up a whole new world.

 

[jakwi]

Hi all, well I decided to go with the original recipe, everything went pretty well, basically hit my numbers and pitched at 60f while cooling to 50 which it reached maybe 6 hours later. It's has been fermenting away happily if a little more sedately than my standard ale feement.

Anyway the original recipe calls to raise the temp after three weeks for a diacetyl rest. That would start today. I decided to take a sample before raising the temp. It is at 1.022. Expected FG is 1.014.

So my question is whether I should wait for the FG at 50f or let the diacetyl rest take it to FG from here.

Thanks again for all of the help. By the way the sample tastes good, and looks to be the expected color.

 

[ba-brewer]

Hi all, well I decided to go with the original recipe, everything went pretty well, basically hit my numbers and pitched at 60f while cooling to 50 which it reached maybe 6 hours later. It's has been fermenting away happily if a little more sedately than my standard ale feement.

Anyway the original recipe calls to raise the temp after three weeks for a diacetyl rest. That would start today. I decided to take a sample before raising the temp. It is at 1.022. Expected FG is 1.014.

So my question is whether I should wait for the FG at 50f or let the diacetyl rest take it to FG from here.

Thanks again for all of the help. By the way the sample tastes good, and looks to be the expected color.

How did you measure the gravity, hydrometer or refractometer? If you used a refractometer did you a program to correct for alcohol?

Was there still yeast on the top of the beer or was it clear? If the has fallen then warming might not help but it wont hurt. I prefer to bump the temp during active fermentation to keep the yeast active then to try and revive them later.