Oktoberfest recipe critique requested

[homebrewdad]

Just noticed my O'fest has 6 grains, LOL, guess I'm nuts as well. I'll let you know what judging says about it at the end of September.

A lot of what I have done has come from Designing Great Beers, which examined nineteen recipes (eleven of which were all grain) that had made it to at least the second round of the NHC.

The vast majority of those all grain recipes used three or four (usually four) base grains - 2 row, pilsner, Munich, Vienna. The percentages of these base grains varied wildly in balance and such.

Base grains represented 77-92 percent of the grain bill, with 82% being the average.

The vast majority used crystal malt, typically in the 10L - 60L range. Many recipes used more than one crystal.

The vast majority used a small amount of carapils or wheat. A few used both.

The average mash temp was 152.5 degrees F. None used decoction mashes.

Caramunich, melanoiden, and aromatic mals were used fairly regularly. One brewer used a small amount of chocolate malt.


I'm all for tradition and simplicity. I don't doubt for a moment that you can make an amazing ofest with 2-3 grains. I could see the fun in trying to brew an amazing beer on your skill alone with a simple ingredient list.

That being said, these beers - which largely had 5+ grains - were judged to be the best representations of the style at NHC. Heck, Biermuncher's massively popular recipe (which, I will grant, is an ale version) has seven grains in the bill.

I don't think that it's fair to generalize that a grain bill that is more complex than you might choose to brew is automatically an inferior beer.

 

[SpeedYellow]

...I don't think that it's fair to generalize that a grain bill that is more complex than you might choose to brew is automatically an inferior beer.

I'm not saying that!! You can make an outstanding O'fest with 12 grains! The problem comes when you detect a flaw or area for improvement. With so many grains, you'll be shooting in the dark. And with too many grains, you may not even be able to detect if the problem is your recipe or the process! If you're a master brewer, maybe it's easy, but most of us are still learning so why make it impossible for yourself?

Let me repeat: this is PERSONAL philosophy, and I'm not saying it's the "best" way.

 

[homebrewdad]

I'm not saying that!! You can make an outstanding O'fest with 12 grains! The problem comes when you detect a flaw or area for improvement. With so many grains, you'll be shooting in the dark. And with too many grains, you may not even be able to detect if the problem is your recipe or the process! If you're a master brewer, maybe it's easy, but most of us are still learning so why make it impossible for yourself?

Let me repeat: this is PERSONAL philosophy, and I'm not saying it's the "best" way.

I get it. I wasn't trying to down you, incidentally - you've bean a great contributor to the thread; I really appreciate your input.

I'm just stating, I guess, that there are definitely multiple ways to make good beer.

You make some really excellent points.

 

[ShaineT]

I get it. I wasn't trying to down you, incidentally - you've bean a great contributor to the thread; I really appreciate your input.

I'm just stating, I guess, that there are definitely multiple ways to make good beer.

You make some really excellent points.

Agreed, this is a good thread. I'm inspired to try working with simple grain bills and focus closely on my process. Thanks

 

[BigEd]

A lot of what I have done has come from Designing Great Beers, which examined nineteen recipes (eleven of which were all grain) that had made it to at least the second round of the NHC.

The vast majority of those all grain recipes used three or four (usually four) base grains - 2 row, pilsner, Munich, Vienna. The percentages of these base grains varied wildly in balance and such.

Base grains represented 77-92 percent of the grain bill, with 82% being the average.

The vast majority used crystal malt, typically in the 10L - 60L range. Many recipes used more than one crystal.

The vast majority used a small amount of carapils or wheat. A few used both.

The average mash temp was 152.5 degrees F. None used decoction mashes.

Caramunich, melanoiden, and aromatic mals were used fairly regularly. One brewer used a small amount of chocolate malt.


I'm all for tradition and simplicity. I don't doubt for a moment that you can make an amazing ofest with 2-3 grains. I could see the fun in trying to brew an amazing beer on your skill alone with a simple ingredient list.

That being said, these beers - which largely had 5+ grains - were judged to be the best representations of the style at NHC. Heck, Biermuncher's massively popular recipe (which, I will grant, is an ale version) has seven grains in the bill.

I don't think that it's fair to generalize that a grain bill that is more complex than you might choose to brew is automatically an inferior beer.

Maybe Speed Yellow won't say it but I will. Those aren't "bad" beers but they are not what I want and they are not what I would compare with the beers from Germany. It's two different things. If you like the American take on this beer and you want to please beer judges who seem to be familiar only with the American take on this style then this is the direction to take.

 

[homebrewdad]

Maybe Speed Yellow won't say it but I will. Those aren't "bad" beers but they are not what I want and they are not what I would compare with the beers from Germany. It's two different things. If you like the American take on this beer and you want to please beer judges who seem to be familiar only with the American take on this style then this is the direction to take.

Again, excellent feedback. You, SpeedYellow, and Stonehands all have a little different perspective than I do. That being said, I have really appreciated all of the input from you guys, and you've already got me putting together the next recipe in my mind, for more of a simple, authentic shot at the style. As a matter of fact, I might solidify it a bit and look for input on it, too.

I will say that judges really aren't what I care about. I've been referencing the NHC beers because of the quality more than anything else. I have no illusions that I'm going to brew some gold medal beer because of something I read in a book.

 

[homebrewdad]

Okay. As I have mentioned, I am really intrigued by the possibilities. I'm now thinking that the next two beers that I brew will be very different interpretations of the style.

I have added a second recipe to the post #1 of this topic. The idea here is for something that would be more of a Wiesn bier.

What's funny to me is that I've seen quite a few varying grain bills from folks who are trying to brew one of these... and this includes grain bills from Germans. :cross:

At any rate, I have three grains in my first blush at this, all of which are base grains.

Two things concern me right now.

One - if I mash this low, and have only base grains, will my beer have any body at all? If not, is that a bad thing?

Two - I'm looking at a very light beer, colorwise (5.3). This has me lighter than the BJCP 3B style. Is that acceptable?

I think that's I'm pretty set on my first recipe (the darker red version with the more complex grain bill), but I'd absolutely like feedback on this second one.

Thanks!

 

[homebrewdad]

Tweak, tweak, tweak. I couldn't stand it.

Swapped out the chocolate malt for Carafa III on the original recipe, as it should have even less flavor contribution. Darkened the beer a little more... should be a really nice red, I think.

 

[StoneHands]

Alright, I'll take a stab at this. (I wish my original thread on this topic got this much attention).
For the tent beer/meadow beer/second recipe, I think the 3 grains is too complex for this beer, but I like that they're all base grains. The mash temperature is perfect. Mash low to dry it out. This isn't an adjunct laden American lager, it's an all malt German lager, with (hopefully) German malts. It's designed to be consumed by the liter, not to be too filling. It will have just a little body, but it will definitely have flavor. German pils/Munich/Vienna all have complexity to them. Don't worry about it being thin, it won't be if done correctly.

This style of beer is in the same category as Dortmunder export. As a matter of fact, at the GABF, they are two different subcategories within the same category. I struggle coming to terms with this honestly, because I think this is a special beer. I don't like lumping this beer with another more common one. The key to this style though, is process. Hitting your numbers, mash temps, and paying attention to fermentation temps and pitch rates - moreso than usual.

I've tried to brew this beer several times over the years, and I think I'm about to nail it. I say this because I think over the past few years, I've finally gotten good enough on my process, and my helles is where I want it. Brew a good helles, you can brew this beer too. That being said, I've yet to brew it properly, so maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. Here is my intended process/recipe:

6 gallons, 75% eff.
10 lbs Weyermann Pilsner
1.5 lbs Weyermann Munich II
4 oz Weyermann acidulated (I'll expand on this in a bit).
(NO cara malts, NO aromatic, NO carapils, NO wheat, nothing else - don't even think about it)
1 oz hallertau at 60 minutes
1 oz hallertau at 30, upper teens on total IBU's (might get dinged on this from you guys)

Protein rest at 130 for 15 minutes
Sacc rest at 149 for 60 minutes (or until converted)
batch sparge.
OG should be around 1.054, FG should be around 1.010.

For water, I'm going to use 3 gallons of my tap water, and 5 gallons distilled, and add 1 tsp of calcium chloride to my total water. My water dilutes fine at this ratio. Water is key I think. The acid malt above will put the pH (I think, I have no meter) in the proper range for this beer. If you go all distilled, I wouldn't change the acid amount or calcium chloride amount, and still get an excellent beer. The acid malt also adds a slight flavor addition that this beer needs IMO.

Chill to 45F, aerate the heck out of it, and then pitch a proper starter. I like Ayinger's yeast, but any lager yeast would do a fine job.

This will be my next batch, I'll update this in Sept. when it's done.

This beer would make Princess Therese proud.

 

[Brulosopher]

This was a good read about Carapils: What is Carapils?

"Caramel, cara or crystal malts are synonymous terms describing a large family of malts that are made by changing the kilning process."

So it is a crystal malt, just as I've believed for the last decade.

 

[StoneHands]

Tweak, tweak, tweak. I couldn't stand it.

Swapped out the chocolate malt for Carafa III on the original recipe, as it should have even less flavor contribution. Darkened the beer a little more... should be a really nice red, I think.

Good swap, I like that a lot more than the chocolate.

 

[SpeedYellow]

StoneHands absolutely nails it 100%. The most authentic German beer you'll make will use zero crystal malts. Base of Pilsner. Get rid of that Vienna. Just 10-15% Munich. Done. Don't worry, it won't be thin. Consider diluting your water with RO. Pitch cold yeast straight from your fridge into wort that's 45-50F. OG 1.052-1.055.

You might *think* you want malty, but make the beer both ways (american and german) and you might just be surprised which you actually prefer. Or not!

p.s. who cares about color, unless you're competing with this!

 

[homebrewdad]

Alright, I'll take a stab at this. (I wish my original thread on this topic got this much attention).
For the tent beer/meadow beer/second recipe, I think the 3 grains is too complex for this beer, but I like that they're all base grains. The mash temperature is perfect. Mash low to dry it out. This isn't an adjunct laden American lager, it's an all malt German lager, with (hopefully) German malts. It's designed to be consumed by the liter, not to be too filling. It will have just a little body, but it will definitely have flavor. German pils/Munich/Vienna all have complexity to them. Don't worry about it being thin, it won't be if done correctly.

This style of beer is in the same category as Dortmunder export. As a matter of fact, at the GABF, they are two different subcategories within the same category. I struggle coming to terms with this honestly, because I think this is a special beer. I don't like lumping this beer with another more common one. The key to this style though, is process. Hitting your numbers, mash temps, and paying attention to fermentation temps and pitch rates - moreso than usual.

I've tried to brew this beer several times over the years, and I think I'm about to nail it. I say this because I think over the past few years, I've finally gotten good enough on my process, and my helles is where I want it. Brew a good helles, you can brew this beer too. That being said, I've yet to brew it properly, so maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. Here is my intended process/recipe:

6 gallons, 75% eff.
10 lbs Weyermann Pilsner
1.5 lbs Weyermann Munich II
4 oz Weyermann acidulated (I'll expand on this in a bit).
(NO cara malts, NO aromatic, NO carapils, NO wheat, nothing else - don't even think about it)
1 oz hallertau at 60 minutes
1 oz hallertau at 30, upper teens on total IBU's (might get dinged on this from you guys)

Protein rest at 130 for 15 minutes
Sacc rest at 149 for 60 minutes (or until converted)
batch sparge.
OG should be around 1.054, FG should be around 1.010.

For water, I'm going to use 3 gallons of my tap water, and 5 gallons distilled, and add 1 tsp of calcium chloride to my total water. My water dilutes fine at this ratio. Water is key I think. The acid malt above will put the pH (I think, I have no meter) in the proper range for this beer. If you go all distilled, I wouldn't change the acid amount or calcium chloride amount, and still get an excellent beer. The acid malt also adds a slight flavor addition that this beer needs IMO.

Chill to 45F, aerate the heck out of it, and then pitch a proper starter. I like Ayinger's yeast, but any lager yeast would do a fine job.

This will be my next batch, I'll update this in Sept. when it's done.

This beer would make Princess Therese proud.

Cool, really nice input. Thanks again.

I think a big thing I needed to do was fully realize that a Wiesn bier - despite being an Oktoberfest staple - really is a different beer.

Back to the drawing board! Man, don't I hate that...

 

[homebrewdad]

StoneHands absolutely nails it 100%. The most authentic German beer you'll make will use zero crystal malts. Base of Pilsner. Get rid of that Vienna. Just 10-15% Munich. Done. Don't worry, it won't be thin. Consider diluting your water with RO. Pitch cold yeast straight from your fridge into wort that's 45-50F.

You might *think* you want malty, but make the beer both ways (american and german) and you might just be surprised which you actually prefer. Or not!

I'm definitely making the beer both ways. As far as I'm concerned, this is simply two fairly different beers.

I'm brew my big red 'fest first, then my stab in the dark at a Wiesn.

If all goes well, I'll end up with two really good beers, plus some expansion of my palate.

 

[StoneHands]

StoneHands absolutely nails it 100%. The most authentic German beer you'll make will use zero crystal malts. Base of Pilsner. Get rid of that Vienna. Just 10-15% Munich. Done. Don't worry, it won't be thin. Consider diluting your water with RO. Pitch cold yeast straight from your fridge into wort that's 45-50F. OG 1.052-1.055.

You might *think* you want malty, but make the beer both ways (american and german) and you might just be surprised which you actually prefer. Or not!

p.s. who cares about color, unless you're competing with this!

Speed, you and I are on the same page on this - I like it. If you ever make a beer like this, I'd be up for a swap.

 

[homebrewdad]

Okay, so another question for Wiesn bier.

Say I don't care about repitching yeast (since I don't harvest it, anyway). What's the absolute best strain, in your mind, for this beer?

833? 838?

 

[SpeedYellow]

Speed, you and I are on the same page on this - I like it. If you ever make a beer like this, I'd be up for a swap.

I have in the past, and will again soon. I recently used this recipe using Wyeast Kolsch (plus a little wheat) and it was absolutely amazing. The subtleties are brilliant when done right; very different from an in-your-face american style of beer.

 

[StoneHands]

Okay, so another question for Wiesn bier.

Say I don't care about repitching yeast (since I don't harvest it, anyway). What's the absolute best strain, in your mind, for this beer?

833? 838?

Somebody with more knowledge on yeast is going to have to chime in. Over the years, I've only ever used 833 and 838 (ironic that's the two you asked about). My first few lagers were with 838 and they were fine. My beers are better now with 833, but I can't tell if it's from the yeast or my process improvement, I suspect it's process improvement. The fact is, I LOVE 833. It's malty, but attenuates well. I know what it does, how long it takes, what it smells like in my starter, etc. For lagers, pick a yeast and stick with it IMO. They don't all behave the same and you'll get different results with each, but they're more subtle differences than with ale yeast.

 

[homebrewdad]

All right. On the Wiesn bier recipe, I have done the following:

Dropped Vienna altogether.
Reduced the munich by quite a bit.
Upped the Pils.
Added a small amount of acid malt.
Swapped the yeast.

Also, for my OCD's sake, I changed the style to Dortmunder Export in Beersmith. I'm now "back in the green".


Is that still too much Munich? Any other changes I should consider?

 

[StoneHands]

All right. On the Wiesn bier recipe, I have done the following:

Dropped Vienna altogether.
Reduced the munich by quite a bit.
Upped the Pils.
Added a small amount of acid malt.
Swapped the yeast.

Also, for my OCD's sake, I changed the style to Dortmunder Export in Beersmith. I'm now "back in the green".


Is that still too much Munich? Any other changes I should consider?

Looks good, very close to mine IMO (so of course I would think it looks good). It'll be slightly different than mine though, with those different percentages. Brew it up, we'll swap.

 

[homebrewdad]

Looks good, very close to mine IMO (so of course I would think it looks good). It'll be slightly different than mine though, with those different percentages. Brew it up, we'll swap.

Well, that's what I was thinking. Didn't want to do it *exactly* how you did. Of course, my process will be different, but still.

You and SpeedYellow have a very similar idea as to what needs to happen, so I figured that I would go with that. Be super simple. If I want to tweak a bit, by golly, there's not many variables at play here.

 

[homebrewdad]

Wanted to make a quick report - I brewed the recipe yesterday, and it went very well.

I did end up doing about a 120 minute boil instead of the planned 90; I still don't have my boiloff rate locked in perfectly. Fortunately, I realized this and hold off my 20 minute hop addition until there were actually 20 minutes left. Yeah, the bittering addition boiled 90 minutes, but I should have barely changed the IBUs.

I did hit my gravity exactly - my sample was a fuzz over 1.062 @ 82 degrees, with a hydrometer calibrated for 60 degrees. Correction sticks me at 1.065, which is exactly the gravity of the recipe.

Ground water is 80 degrees here, so 15 minutes with the immersion chiller took it from boiling to 90 degrees, 5 more minutes only got me to 86. I dumped it in the carboy and stuck it in my mini fridge overnight. Pitched yeast this morning @ 56 degrees (WLP820 wants to ferment as 52-58 degrees, and I have my fridge set for 52).

I am pretty stoked. Wort smelled and tasted great... man, do I hope that this beer turns out well!

 

[Gustifer]

So how did it turn out? I am going to brew an Oktoberfest this coming march for use at my daughter's wedding rehearsal dinner this September. I really don't want to screw this up.l

 

[homebrewdad]

So how did it turn out? I am going to brew an Oktoberfest this coming march for use at my daughter's wedding rehearsal dinner this September. I really don't want to screw this up.l

Well, life and the holidays got in the way, and I ended up lagering this beer until January. It's been in bottles about two and a half weeks, now... I plan to open one this weekend and see if I have carbonation yet.

That being said, the gravity sample tasted absolutely amazing! If carbonation treats it well (no reason to think otherwise), I am going to be ecstatic over how good this beer is. It's not as red as I was hoping - more of an amber - but it's definitely deliciously malty, with a bit drier finish that I had expected (finished at 1.012!).

If you want to read it (and see a pic or two), I did a full blog entry on bottling the Oktoberfest.

I'll report back as soon as I have confirmed the carbonated taste.

 

[uatuba]

Pro tip...bottle using at least one PET bottle so you can tell when the beer is carbonated.


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[homebrewdad]

Just as a follow up... I had the first bottle of this. Beautiful, thick, fluffy head. Lacing like crazy, a cap of foam that lasts forever.

Beer is a gorgeous dark red, but clear as a bell... so much for trusting that gravity sample for color. Beer is malty and delicious, nice complexity, decently dry finish with just a touch of diacetyl slickness. Similar to the Sam Adams interpretation, but not as sweet.

If I picked up a sixer of this commercially, I'd be very happy with it.

 

[wobdee]

This is a great thread, very informative. Lots of different ways to brew this style and it's kind a confusing to me figuring out the differences between Oktoberfest, Marzen and Vienna lagers.

I'm going to brew a 60% pils, 30% Munich with a touch of Aromatic and see what happens.


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[homebrewdad]

This is a great thread, very informative. Lots of different ways to brew this style and it's kind a confusing to me figuring out the differences between Oktoberfest, Marzen and Vienna lagers.

I'm going to brew a 60% pils, 30% Munich with a touch of Aromatic and see what happens.


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Well, one thing to keep in mind is that, for all intents and purposes, Oktoberfest is essentially the exact same thing as Märzen - the distinction being that a traditional Oktoberfest is brewed in March and lagered all summer to be enjoyed in the fall.

The differences between Märzen and Vienna lager are fairly subtle; they are both subcategories of category 3 (European amber lager). Vienna lagers are a little lower in gravity and body, and should be likewise lighter and more delicate in flavor - but they definitely have a fair amount in common.

At any rate, do report back and let us know how it goes. I would love to play with these styles again and again, but my schedule and lack of capacity limits me to a couple of lagers per year.

 

[wobdee]

Brewed it up yesterday, everything went well, probably too well, my efficiency was in the 90's so my FG ended up a little high at 1.060. SRM looks to be 6-7, nice deep gold color, should be a good beer. I'll post pics of the final product and give a review.


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[Omahawk]

It's that time of year. I thoroughly enjoyed this thread last year, and brewed something closer to the American version (5% caramunich, SRM near 10 with lots of Munich and Pils for the rest) for 2013. This year, I'm baby-stepping closer to the German fest beer, planning to brew this weekend.

Here's what I have for this year's batch:

70% Pilsner
17% Vienna Malt
13% Munich Malt

Bittering addition of Magnum, and a 30 minute Tettnang addition for 27 IBU.

Using Wyeast Munich Lager (2308 ).

OG: 1.053
5.1 SRM

Mash at 152.

Anyone brewed a German-style Ofest like this? Or should I just call this a Dortmunder Export?