Oktoberfest recipe critique requested

[SpeedYellow]

One more thought: go try a Rogue Dead Guy -- it's a similar recipe to what you're making. It's basically 25% Munich, 10% crystal, and the rest pils/2-row. I find it poorly balanced; too malty and sweet. So realize your beer will be more malty AND sweeter. Hopefully that's what you want.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Well, I almost view the carapils as a pass. It's not a crystal malt, and shouldn't add any real flavor contribution...

Not a crystal malt? I've always understood it to be virtually a crystal malt that will add sweetness.

 

[Omahawk]

Not a crystal malt? I've always understood it to be virtually a crystal malt that will add sweetness.

This was a good read about Carapils:

What is Carapils?

 

[homebrewdad]

Not a crystal malt? I've always understood it to be virtually a crystal malt that will add sweetness.

If that's the case, then this post alone provided some invaluable education. I understood carapils to be good for body and head retention, but to be pretty neutral in terms of flavor.

I do not want another half pound of sweetness here, so another revision is certainly coming.

Thanks much.

 

[Omahawk]

If that's the case, then this post alone provided some invaluable education. I understood carapils to be good for body and head retention, but to be pretty neutral in terms of flavor.

I do not want another half pound of sweetness here, so another revision is certainly coming.

Thanks much.

I have done lots of pale ales with and without carapils. I've never noticed that it added a significant amount of flavor to any of my beers. Pretty much a mouthfeel element and that's it.

That being said, it is an unfermentable and will add more dextrin to the finished beer in addition to the crystals you've already added.

 

[homebrewdad]

I have done lots of pale ales with and without carapils. I've never noticed that it added a significant amount of flavor to any of my beers. Pretty much a mouthfeel element and that's it.

That being said, it is an unfermentable and will add more dextrin to the finished beer in addition to the crystals you've already added.

This is what I was thinking. I need to study on this more.

 

[kingwood-kid]

I'm having trouble keeping track of all the changes. What's the current recipe? My homebrew club is having an Octoberfest comp and I'm looking for tips too. It's a style I'm not very familiar with.

 

[SpeedYellow]

If that's the case, then this post alone provided some invaluable education. I understood carapils to be good for body and head retention, but to be pretty neutral in terms of flavor.

I do not want another half pound of sweetness here, so another revision is certainly coming.

Thanks much.

Actually we mostly agree. Yes, it's supposed to be neutral in flavor, but that's referring to toffee or malty or grainy or chocolatey etc. I understand that it does add sweetness, which some may refer to as body ("body" is kind of vague).

The BYO article posted above supports what I'm saying. It's considered a crystal malt.

 

[homebrewdad]

I'm having trouble keeping track of all the changes. What's the current recipe? My homebrew club is having an Octoberfest comp and I'm looking for tips too. It's a style I'm not very familiar with.

I update post #1 as I make changes to the recipe. What's there is the most recent one I have. I keep fiddling with it, though. Also note that I am shooting for a malty, darker interpretation of the style.

I'm reading a lot of conflicting info on carapils, by the way. What don't want is tons of plain sweetness like you get from crystal malts. As I understand it, caramunich (even though it certainly is a crystal malt) has more of a malty as opposed to sweet flavor profile.

I read a lot of "carapils brings nothing but some body to the beer" as well as several "carapils can add sweetness". Hrm.

 

[homebrewdad]

Okay, edited yet again.

Reduced the melanoiden malt to 8 oz.
Increased the Vienna malt to 3 lb 8 oz.
Increased the chocolate malt to 1.5 oz. (this adjusted color up to 11.4)

Base grains are now 88.1% of the grist.

The chocolate malt will again make some purists annoyed with me. That's okay.

My impression is that this will be a massive malt bomb of a beer. I truly do not think that it will be cloyingly sweet, however. Some will certainly disagree; again, though, this style is really wide open for interpretation.

Some would prefer to build the vast bulk of the recipe from Pils or 2 row, keeping the Munich under 25%. That's fine.

Some would like to see Vienna as the dominant grain, with Munich in a supporting role. More power to them!

I really like Munich. I've had a Dunkel with almost 69% of the grist coming from it. I feel like I should have a big, solid malt backbone with this beer without it being too heavy.

But again, I may be nuts. We'll just have to see, I guess.

I think that I am very, very close to my final recipe composition.

 

[kingwood-kid]

I made a 1.087 Doppelsticke that was 80% Light Munich, 20% malted wheat. When the 60 IBUs started to fade, it started to get unbalanced, but before that it was malty, but not sweet. I think that if properly attenuated, heavy amounts of Munich and Vienna should be able to give you richness without being cloying. I think most of your sweetness will come from any caramel malts you add in.

 

[StoneHands]

OP,
Glad I finally found your thread on this, I thought I'd chime in with some of my thoughts too.
I think there are two conflicting "styles" going on with Oktoberfest. I think when Americans think of Oktoberfest, you think of the richer, maltier amber lager, maybe even with some caramel sweetness and very little bitterness. Nothing wrong at all with this beer, I like this beer - I seek out this beer
HBdad, I think your beer is approaching this. I agree with some, simplify your grain bill. Someone said earlier that German beers are about simple ingredients with attention to detail on your process, I've said this before myself. You can get a depth of flavor with VERY simple grain bills. I view Munich, Vienna, and pils as all base malts though, so I think using all three isn't overly complex. That being said, if you're shooting for this "American Oktoberfest" (I'm not at all bashing this beer by calling it that), your grain bill isn't bad. I've seen the chocolate malt in a few other Ofests too. I think at that small percentage, you won't taste it. I've seen chocolate though, in more Viennas than Ofests.

The other "style" is more of a true Munich Oktoberfest, like they serve in the tents at the end of September (a Wies'n beer). I've started a thread or two about this in the past. It's a lighter beer, definitely no cara malts, mostly pils malt. I think I've settled on about 85% pils and 15% munich, with a single hop. The problem that I've had with this in the past is that I didn't pay attention to my water, and I ended up with a beer that was less crisp than I wanted, a little "muddy". Here's a full size pic of what I'm talking about (that's one of my many beers from 2011). You can tell it's lighter in color, but it still has a nice depth of flavor and is more complex than a pils or a helles. The "problem" with this beer (and this is its only problem by far - I like this beer if you can't tell), is that if you call it an Oktoberfest and give it to your American friends, they'll think you're crazy since it's not what they expect.

 

[homebrewdad]

I think that there has been some outstanding information in this thread. It has been extremely educational.

All of this discussion has gotten me agitated. I would honestly like to brew up two or three versions, just to see how they contrast. Sadly I don't have the space for that.

Yet.

 

[StoneHands]

If you're interested, this is one of my other threads about this. Post 17 has some links to some pics that compared two beers. Just some additional reading of some old posts.

 

[homebrewdad]

If you're interested, this is one of my other threads about this. Post 17 has some links to some pics that compared two beers. Just some additional reading of some old posts.

Nice discussion in that thread, and nice pics, too. Thanks!

 

[Ravenor]

Hi,
I brewed a Maerzen (Oktoberfest beer) last September using the following recepie:

Gravity: ca. 1046 (12% Plato)
Batch size: 5.28 gallon (20 l)

Grain bill:
5.51 lb (2500 g) Pilsner malt
4.40 lb (2000 g) Vienna malt

Yeast: Safalager S-23

Water:
4.22 gallon (16 l) mashing
3.96 gallon (15 l) sparging? (I don`t know the correct word for it. In german it is "Nachguss")

Hop:
1.34 oz (38 g) Hallertauer Tradition (7.1 % Alpha) at 90 min.
0.67 oz (19 g) Hallertauer Tradition (7.1 % Alpha) at 15 min.

Mash at 95°F (35°C)
Rest at 131°F (55°C): 15 minutes
Rest at 147°F (64°C): 35 minutes
Rest at 161°F (72°C): 20 minutes
Rest at 172°F (78°C): 20 minutes
Sparge at 172°F (78°C)
Boil time 90 minutes

The beer itself turned out slightly red and tasted really nice.
I hope this helps.

Cheers
Martin

Edit: This won`t be like an Oktoberfest beer that you`ll be getting at the Wiesn because of the color. Wiesn beer are more golden in color.

 

[homebrewdad]

Hi,
I brewed a Maerzen (Oktoberfest beer) last September using the following recepie:

Gravity: ca. 1046 (12% Plato)
Batch size: 5.28 gallon (20 l)

Grain bill:
5.51 lb (2500 g) Pilsner malt
4.40 lb (2000 g) Vienna malt

Yeast: Safalager S-23

Water:
4.22 gallon (16 l) mashing
3.96 gallon (15 l) sparging? (I don`t know the correct word for it. In german it is "Nachguss")

Hop:
1.34 oz (38 g) Hallertauer Tradition (7.1 % Alpha) at 90 min.
0.67 oz (19 g) Hallertauer Tradition (7.1 % Alpha) at 15 min.

Mash at 95°F (35°C)
Rest at 131°F (55°C): 15 minutes
Rest at 147°F (64°C): 35 minutes
Rest at 161°F (72°C): 20 minutes
Rest at 172°F (78°C): 20 minutes
Sparge at 172°F (78°C)
Boil time 90 minutes

The beer itself turned out slightly red and tasted really nice.
I hope this helps.

Cheers
Martin

Edit: This won`t be like an Oktoberfest beer that you`ll be getting at the Wiesn because of the color. Wiesn beer are more golden in color.

It absolutely helps. I'm loving this discussion.

I have to say, the Oktoberfest bug has bitten me hard. I have a brown ale that I am really proud of, but it is what it is. I have a big Irish red recipe that I made that again, I really like... and I might tweak very slightly, but that style is pretty well defined. Once I'm certain that the beer is what I want, I'll simply brew the same recipe again.

Oktoberfest/Marzen, on the other hand, has just so much room to play with. Let's say, for the sake of fun, that this malt bomb I'm planning to brew turns out to be some amazing, gold medal winning beer. I'm on the cover of BYO. Women want to be with me, men want to be me....

Wait, where was I?

So I brew this amazing beer. Great! While I'd be thrilled, on the other hand, it doesn't matter... I'm also wanting to try my hand at one of the lighter in color and flavor versions out there. Look at Stonehands, who is on something like attempt #5 to capture that perfect "tent beer", and I can personally attest that the guy brews amazing beer.

I see quality beers with grains bills that are mostly Vienna, or mostly Munich, or mostly pilsner. I see grain bills with specialty grains, I see grain bills with two base grains and nothing else. Different yeasts act differently, different mash schedules, the list goes on.

Is there another beer with this much of an acceptable range of outcomes?

I get the feeling that I'll always have one interpretation of this style on hand.

 

[ShaineT]

This is a great thread and awesome posts by StoneHands, thanks. I have one fermenting right now. Question though, isn't the inclusion of some caramunich/carapils a way to avoid the otherwise necessary decoction step to get body and maltiness? I love this style and would like to continue improving my results.

My grain bill for currently fermenting marzen: (too complex?)
Munich Malt 33%
Pilsen Malt 33%
Wheat Malt, White 13%
Vienna Malt 6 %
Château Biscuit® 6 %
CARAMUNICH® II 6 %

 

[homebrewdad]

This is a great thread and awesome posts by StoneHands, thanks. I have one fermenting right now. Question though, isn't the inclusion of some caramunich/carapils a way to avoid the otherwise necessary decoction step to get body and maltiness? I love this style and would like to continue improving my results.

My grain bill for currently fermenting marzen: (too complex?)
Munich Malt 33%
Pilsen Malt 33%
Wheat Malt, White 13%
Vienna Malt 6 %
Château Biscuit® 6 %
CARAMUNICH® II 6 %

From what I understand, caramunich will give you maltiness and some body, and carapils will definitely give body and head retention.

I've read multiple references to melanoiden giving you maltiness and body, sort of a "rounding" of the malt flavors, and something of a substitute for decoction.

Wheat malt should give a fair amount of body, I would think. I'd think you'd want to drop that down if you added carapils.

Do I personally think your grain bill is too complex? Nope, but I'm apparently a mad scientist rebel.

 

[ShaineT]

Do I personally think your grain bill is too complex? Nope, but I'm apparently a mad scientist rebel.

Thanks, I have a tendency to want to throw in adjuncts at the last minute such as rolled oats or flaked wheat but I resisted the temptation on this one. Tasting it at the last SG check and it is doing quite nicely. I really would like to try a decoction next time.

 

[homebrewdad]

Thanks, I have a tendency to want to throw in adjuncts at the last minute such as rolled oats or flaked wheat but I resisted the temptation on this one. Tasting it at the last SG check and it is doing quite nicely. I really would like to try a decoction next time.

Decoction is something on my to-do list, but I'm not quite there, yet.

 

[SpeedYellow]

...
My grain bill for currently fermenting marzen: (too complex?)
Munich Malt 33%
Pilsen Malt 33%
Wheat Malt, White 13%
Vienna Malt 6 %
Château Biscuit® 6 %
CARAMUNICH® II 6 %

You probably know that neither the Wheat nor the Biscuit are truly appropriate here. But if you like them, go for it. I try to keep my malt bills limited to 3, but that's personal philosophy.

 

[Omahawk]

Gravity: ca. 1046 (12% Plato)

Mash at 95°F (35°C)
Rest at 131°F (55°C): 15 minutes
Rest at 147°F (64°C): 35 minutes
Rest at 161°F (72°C): 20 minutes
Rest at 172°F (78°C): 20 minutes
Sparge at 172°F (78°C)
Boil time 90 minutes
.

Out of curiosity, what was your finishing gravity on this beer? I've heard that most malts nowadays get a majority of their conversion during the first 15 minutes. Thus, most of the conversion with a step mash happens at lower temps which leads to a highly attenuative wort (is attenuative a word?). That's not a bad thing with lagers, in my opinion. Just curious.

 

[homebrewdad]

You probably know that neither the Wheat nor the Biscuit are truly appropriate here. But if you like them, go for it. I try to keep my malt bills limited to 3, but that's personal philosophy.

Is that on every beer, or just Oktoberfests?

 

[SpeedYellow]

Is that on every beer, or just Oktoberfests?

I limit every beer to 3 (except imperial stouts) for two reasons: (1) more aren't needed, since so many award-winning and commercial beers use 1-3, and (2) to learn about the grains, which is near impossible once you get over 3. Recipe design is IMHO the most important element in making good beer and you'll never get good at it if you don't understand how grains contribute. Like I said, just personal philosophy.

And O'fests can easily be done in 3.

 

[homebrewdad]

I limit every beer to 3 (except imperial stouts) for two reasons: (1) more aren't needed, since so many award-winning and commercial beers use 1-3, and (2) to learn about the grains, which is near impossible once you get over 3. Recipe design is IMHO the most important element in making good beer and you'll never get good at it if you don't understand how grains contribute. Like I said, just personal philosophy.

And O'fests can easily be done in 3.

Spoken as a guy who has a very tasty SMaSH (Belgian golden strong) on hand right now, I fully agree that you can make delicious beer with simple grain bills.

That being said, I'm looking at my recipe database right now, and three seems to be a pretty low number to just arbitrarily go with. Most of the recipes I have - only one of which is mine originally - have 4-6 grains.

Have you never brewed with two or three different crystal malts? Doing so will give you some depth and character that you won't get from just one. What about adding a few ounces of, say, smoked malt or the like?

That being said, I do think that it's kind of a cool "signature", if you will. And I don't doubt for a moment that you make great beers.

 

[ShaineT]

You probably know that neither the Wheat nor the Biscuit are truly appropriate here. But if you like them, go for it. I try to keep my malt bills limited to 3, but that's personal philosophy.

I agree entirely and I really need to start having more confidence in my mashing skills to provide good head retention without adding a bit of wheat malt. In this case the wheat malt could have been just 3-4%, not sure why I have so much As far as the inclusion of the Biscuit; I was thinking that the small amount adds body and other characteristics I may have otherwise achieved using Munich and decoction mashing. Thanks for the feedback

 

[SpeedYellow]

...
That being said, I'm looking at my recipe database right now, and three seems to be a pretty low number to just arbitrarily go with. Most of the recipes I have - only one of which is mine originally - have 4-6 grains.

Have you never brewed with two or three different crystal malts? Doing so will give you some depth and character that you won't get from just one. What about adding a few ounces of, say, smoked malt or the like?
....

6 grains for an O'fest? That's nuts.

Keep in mind I do mostly lagers, where simpler grain bills really shine. And yes i've used multiple crystals in some ales, but meh. I blame Papazian for creating this obsession to adding crystal malt to every recipe. It's just not always appropriate.

 

[homebrewdad]

6 grains for an O'fest? That's nuts.

Keep in mind I do mostly lagers, where simpler grain bills really shine. And yes i've used multiple crystals in some ales, but meh. I blame Papazian for creating this obsession to adding crystal malt to every recipe. It's just not always appropriate.

I was referring to my grains bills for various beers, period. That being said, I have seven grains listed on the recipe on post #1.

Nuts, I suppose.

 

[ShaineT]

6 grains for an O'fest? That's nuts.

Keep in mind I do mostly lagers, where simpler grain bills really shine. And yes i've used multiple crystals in some ales, but meh. I blame Papazian for creating this obsession to adding crystal malt to every recipe. It's just not always appropriate.

Just noticed my O'fest has 6 grains, LOL, guess I'm nuts as well. I'll let you know what judging says about it at the end of September.