Oktoberfest recipe critique requested

[kingwood-kid]

I made a 1.087 Doppelsticke that was 80% Light Munich, 20% malted wheat. When the 60 IBUs started to fade, it started to get unbalanced, but before that it was malty, but not sweet. I think that if properly attenuated, heavy amounts of Munich and Vienna should be able to give you richness without being cloying. I think most of your sweetness will come from any caramel malts you add in.

 

[StoneHands]

OP,
Glad I finally found your thread on this, I thought I'd chime in with some of my thoughts too.
I think there are two conflicting "styles" going on with Oktoberfest. I think when Americans think of Oktoberfest, you think of the richer, maltier amber lager, maybe even with some caramel sweetness and very little bitterness. Nothing wrong at all with this beer, I like this beer - I seek out this beer
HBdad, I think your beer is approaching this. I agree with some, simplify your grain bill. Someone said earlier that German beers are about simple ingredients with attention to detail on your process, I've said this before myself. You can get a depth of flavor with VERY simple grain bills. I view Munich, Vienna, and pils as all base malts though, so I think using all three isn't overly complex. That being said, if you're shooting for this "American Oktoberfest" (I'm not at all bashing this beer by calling it that), your grain bill isn't bad. I've seen the chocolate malt in a few other Ofests too. I think at that small percentage, you won't taste it. I've seen chocolate though, in more Viennas than Ofests.

The other "style" is more of a true Munich Oktoberfest, like they serve in the tents at the end of September (a Wies'n beer). I've started a thread or two about this in the past. It's a lighter beer, definitely no cara malts, mostly pils malt. I think I've settled on about 85% pils and 15% munich, with a single hop. The problem that I've had with this in the past is that I didn't pay attention to my water, and I ended up with a beer that was less crisp than I wanted, a little "muddy". Here's a full size pic of what I'm talking about (that's one of my many beers from 2011). You can tell it's lighter in color, but it still has a nice depth of flavor and is more complex than a pils or a helles. The "problem" with this beer (and this is its only problem by far - I like this beer if you can't tell), is that if you call it an Oktoberfest and give it to your American friends, they'll think you're crazy since it's not what they expect.

 

[homebrewdad]

I think that there has been some outstanding information in this thread. It has been extremely educational.

All of this discussion has gotten me agitated. I would honestly like to brew up two or three versions, just to see how they contrast. Sadly I don't have the space for that.

Yet.

 

[StoneHands]

If you're interested, this is one of my other threads about this. Post 17 has some links to some pics that compared two beers. Just some additional reading of some old posts.

 

[homebrewdad]

If you're interested, this is one of my other threads about this. Post 17 has some links to some pics that compared two beers. Just some additional reading of some old posts.

Nice discussion in that thread, and nice pics, too. Thanks!

 

[Ravenor]

Hi,
I brewed a Maerzen (Oktoberfest beer) last September using the following recepie:

Gravity: ca. 1046 (12% Plato)
Batch size: 5.28 gallon (20 l)

Grain bill:
5.51 lb (2500 g) Pilsner malt
4.40 lb (2000 g) Vienna malt

Yeast: Safalager S-23

Water:
4.22 gallon (16 l) mashing
3.96 gallon (15 l) sparging? (I don`t know the correct word for it. In german it is "Nachguss")

Hop:
1.34 oz (38 g) Hallertauer Tradition (7.1 % Alpha) at 90 min.
0.67 oz (19 g) Hallertauer Tradition (7.1 % Alpha) at 15 min.

Mash at 95°F (35°C)
Rest at 131°F (55°C): 15 minutes
Rest at 147°F (64°C): 35 minutes
Rest at 161°F (72°C): 20 minutes
Rest at 172°F (78°C): 20 minutes
Sparge at 172°F (78°C)
Boil time 90 minutes

The beer itself turned out slightly red and tasted really nice.
I hope this helps.

Cheers
Martin

Edit: This won`t be like an Oktoberfest beer that you`ll be getting at the Wiesn because of the color. Wiesn beer are more golden in color.

 

[homebrewdad]

Hi,
I brewed a Maerzen (Oktoberfest beer) last September using the following recepie:

Gravity: ca. 1046 (12% Plato)
Batch size: 5.28 gallon (20 l)

Grain bill:
5.51 lb (2500 g) Pilsner malt
4.40 lb (2000 g) Vienna malt

Yeast: Safalager S-23

Water:
4.22 gallon (16 l) mashing
3.96 gallon (15 l) sparging? (I don`t know the correct word for it. In german it is "Nachguss")

Hop:
1.34 oz (38 g) Hallertauer Tradition (7.1 % Alpha) at 90 min.
0.67 oz (19 g) Hallertauer Tradition (7.1 % Alpha) at 15 min.

Mash at 95°F (35°C)
Rest at 131°F (55°C): 15 minutes
Rest at 147°F (64°C): 35 minutes
Rest at 161°F (72°C): 20 minutes
Rest at 172°F (78°C): 20 minutes
Sparge at 172°F (78°C)
Boil time 90 minutes

The beer itself turned out slightly red and tasted really nice.
I hope this helps.

Cheers
Martin

Edit: This won`t be like an Oktoberfest beer that you`ll be getting at the Wiesn because of the color. Wiesn beer are more golden in color.

It absolutely helps. I'm loving this discussion.

I have to say, the Oktoberfest bug has bitten me hard. I have a brown ale that I am really proud of, but it is what it is. I have a big Irish red recipe that I made that again, I really like... and I might tweak very slightly, but that style is pretty well defined. Once I'm certain that the beer is what I want, I'll simply brew the same recipe again.

Oktoberfest/Marzen, on the other hand, has just so much room to play with. Let's say, for the sake of fun, that this malt bomb I'm planning to brew turns out to be some amazing, gold medal winning beer. I'm on the cover of BYO. Women want to be with me, men want to be me....

Wait, where was I?

So I brew this amazing beer. Great! While I'd be thrilled, on the other hand, it doesn't matter... I'm also wanting to try my hand at one of the lighter in color and flavor versions out there. Look at Stonehands, who is on something like attempt #5 to capture that perfect "tent beer", and I can personally attest that the guy brews amazing beer.

I see quality beers with grains bills that are mostly Vienna, or mostly Munich, or mostly pilsner. I see grain bills with specialty grains, I see grain bills with two base grains and nothing else. Different yeasts act differently, different mash schedules, the list goes on.

Is there another beer with this much of an acceptable range of outcomes?

I get the feeling that I'll always have one interpretation of this style on hand.

 

[ShaineT]

This is a great thread and awesome posts by StoneHands, thanks. I have one fermenting right now. Question though, isn't the inclusion of some caramunich/carapils a way to avoid the otherwise necessary decoction step to get body and maltiness? I love this style and would like to continue improving my results.

My grain bill for currently fermenting marzen: (too complex?)
Munich Malt 33%
Pilsen Malt 33%
Wheat Malt, White 13%
Vienna Malt 6 %
Château Biscuit® 6 %
CARAMUNICH® II 6 %

 

[homebrewdad]

This is a great thread and awesome posts by StoneHands, thanks. I have one fermenting right now. Question though, isn't the inclusion of some caramunich/carapils a way to avoid the otherwise necessary decoction step to get body and maltiness? I love this style and would like to continue improving my results.

My grain bill for currently fermenting marzen: (too complex?)
Munich Malt 33%
Pilsen Malt 33%
Wheat Malt, White 13%
Vienna Malt 6 %
Château Biscuit® 6 %
CARAMUNICH® II 6 %

From what I understand, caramunich will give you maltiness and some body, and carapils will definitely give body and head retention.

I've read multiple references to melanoiden giving you maltiness and body, sort of a "rounding" of the malt flavors, and something of a substitute for decoction.

Wheat malt should give a fair amount of body, I would think. I'd think you'd want to drop that down if you added carapils.

Do I personally think your grain bill is too complex? Nope, but I'm apparently a mad scientist rebel.

 

[ShaineT]

Do I personally think your grain bill is too complex? Nope, but I'm apparently a mad scientist rebel.

Thanks, I have a tendency to want to throw in adjuncts at the last minute such as rolled oats or flaked wheat but I resisted the temptation on this one. Tasting it at the last SG check and it is doing quite nicely. I really would like to try a decoction next time.

 

[homebrewdad]

Thanks, I have a tendency to want to throw in adjuncts at the last minute such as rolled oats or flaked wheat but I resisted the temptation on this one. Tasting it at the last SG check and it is doing quite nicely. I really would like to try a decoction next time.

Decoction is something on my to-do list, but I'm not quite there, yet.

 

[SpeedYellow]

...
My grain bill for currently fermenting marzen: (too complex?)
Munich Malt 33%
Pilsen Malt 33%
Wheat Malt, White 13%
Vienna Malt 6 %
Château Biscuit® 6 %
CARAMUNICH® II 6 %

You probably know that neither the Wheat nor the Biscuit are truly appropriate here. But if you like them, go for it. I try to keep my malt bills limited to 3, but that's personal philosophy.

 

[Omahawk]

Gravity: ca. 1046 (12% Plato)

Mash at 95°F (35°C)
Rest at 131°F (55°C): 15 minutes
Rest at 147°F (64°C): 35 minutes
Rest at 161°F (72°C): 20 minutes
Rest at 172°F (78°C): 20 minutes
Sparge at 172°F (78°C)
Boil time 90 minutes
.

Out of curiosity, what was your finishing gravity on this beer? I've heard that most malts nowadays get a majority of their conversion during the first 15 minutes. Thus, most of the conversion with a step mash happens at lower temps which leads to a highly attenuative wort (is attenuative a word?). That's not a bad thing with lagers, in my opinion. Just curious.

 

[homebrewdad]

You probably know that neither the Wheat nor the Biscuit are truly appropriate here. But if you like them, go for it. I try to keep my malt bills limited to 3, but that's personal philosophy.

Is that on every beer, or just Oktoberfests?

 

[SpeedYellow]

Is that on every beer, or just Oktoberfests?

I limit every beer to 3 (except imperial stouts) for two reasons: (1) more aren't needed, since so many award-winning and commercial beers use 1-3, and (2) to learn about the grains, which is near impossible once you get over 3. Recipe design is IMHO the most important element in making good beer and you'll never get good at it if you don't understand how grains contribute. Like I said, just personal philosophy.

And O'fests can easily be done in 3.

 

[homebrewdad]

I limit every beer to 3 (except imperial stouts) for two reasons: (1) more aren't needed, since so many award-winning and commercial beers use 1-3, and (2) to learn about the grains, which is near impossible once you get over 3. Recipe design is IMHO the most important element in making good beer and you'll never get good at it if you don't understand how grains contribute. Like I said, just personal philosophy.

And O'fests can easily be done in 3.

Spoken as a guy who has a very tasty SMaSH (Belgian golden strong) on hand right now, I fully agree that you can make delicious beer with simple grain bills.

That being said, I'm looking at my recipe database right now, and three seems to be a pretty low number to just arbitrarily go with. Most of the recipes I have - only one of which is mine originally - have 4-6 grains.

Have you never brewed with two or three different crystal malts? Doing so will give you some depth and character that you won't get from just one. What about adding a few ounces of, say, smoked malt or the like?

That being said, I do think that it's kind of a cool "signature", if you will. And I don't doubt for a moment that you make great beers.

 

[ShaineT]

You probably know that neither the Wheat nor the Biscuit are truly appropriate here. But if you like them, go for it. I try to keep my malt bills limited to 3, but that's personal philosophy.

I agree entirely and I really need to start having more confidence in my mashing skills to provide good head retention without adding a bit of wheat malt. In this case the wheat malt could have been just 3-4%, not sure why I have so much As far as the inclusion of the Biscuit; I was thinking that the small amount adds body and other characteristics I may have otherwise achieved using Munich and decoction mashing. Thanks for the feedback

 

[SpeedYellow]

...
That being said, I'm looking at my recipe database right now, and three seems to be a pretty low number to just arbitrarily go with. Most of the recipes I have - only one of which is mine originally - have 4-6 grains.

Have you never brewed with two or three different crystal malts? Doing so will give you some depth and character that you won't get from just one. What about adding a few ounces of, say, smoked malt or the like?
....

6 grains for an O'fest? That's nuts.

Keep in mind I do mostly lagers, where simpler grain bills really shine. And yes i've used multiple crystals in some ales, but meh. I blame Papazian for creating this obsession to adding crystal malt to every recipe. It's just not always appropriate.

 

[homebrewdad]

6 grains for an O'fest? That's nuts.

Keep in mind I do mostly lagers, where simpler grain bills really shine. And yes i've used multiple crystals in some ales, but meh. I blame Papazian for creating this obsession to adding crystal malt to every recipe. It's just not always appropriate.

I was referring to my grains bills for various beers, period. That being said, I have seven grains listed on the recipe on post #1.

Nuts, I suppose.

 

[ShaineT]

6 grains for an O'fest? That's nuts.

Keep in mind I do mostly lagers, where simpler grain bills really shine. And yes i've used multiple crystals in some ales, but meh. I blame Papazian for creating this obsession to adding crystal malt to every recipe. It's just not always appropriate.

Just noticed my O'fest has 6 grains, LOL, guess I'm nuts as well. I'll let you know what judging says about it at the end of September.

 

[homebrewdad]

Just noticed my O'fest has 6 grains, LOL, guess I'm nuts as well. I'll let you know what judging says about it at the end of September.

A lot of what I have done has come from Designing Great Beers, which examined nineteen recipes (eleven of which were all grain) that had made it to at least the second round of the NHC.

The vast majority of those all grain recipes used three or four (usually four) base grains - 2 row, pilsner, Munich, Vienna. The percentages of these base grains varied wildly in balance and such.

Base grains represented 77-92 percent of the grain bill, with 82% being the average.

The vast majority used crystal malt, typically in the 10L - 60L range. Many recipes used more than one crystal.

The vast majority used a small amount of carapils or wheat. A few used both.

The average mash temp was 152.5 degrees F. None used decoction mashes.

Caramunich, melanoiden, and aromatic mals were used fairly regularly. One brewer used a small amount of chocolate malt.


I'm all for tradition and simplicity. I don't doubt for a moment that you can make an amazing ofest with 2-3 grains. I could see the fun in trying to brew an amazing beer on your skill alone with a simple ingredient list.

That being said, these beers - which largely had 5+ grains - were judged to be the best representations of the style at NHC. Heck, Biermuncher's massively popular recipe (which, I will grant, is an ale version) has seven grains in the bill.

I don't think that it's fair to generalize that a grain bill that is more complex than you might choose to brew is automatically an inferior beer.

 

[SpeedYellow]

...I don't think that it's fair to generalize that a grain bill that is more complex than you might choose to brew is automatically an inferior beer.

I'm not saying that!! You can make an outstanding O'fest with 12 grains! The problem comes when you detect a flaw or area for improvement. With so many grains, you'll be shooting in the dark. And with too many grains, you may not even be able to detect if the problem is your recipe or the process! If you're a master brewer, maybe it's easy, but most of us are still learning so why make it impossible for yourself?

Let me repeat: this is PERSONAL philosophy, and I'm not saying it's the "best" way.

 

[homebrewdad]

I'm not saying that!! You can make an outstanding O'fest with 12 grains! The problem comes when you detect a flaw or area for improvement. With so many grains, you'll be shooting in the dark. And with too many grains, you may not even be able to detect if the problem is your recipe or the process! If you're a master brewer, maybe it's easy, but most of us are still learning so why make it impossible for yourself?

Let me repeat: this is PERSONAL philosophy, and I'm not saying it's the "best" way.

I get it. I wasn't trying to down you, incidentally - you've bean a great contributor to the thread; I really appreciate your input.

I'm just stating, I guess, that there are definitely multiple ways to make good beer.

You make some really excellent points.

 

[ShaineT]

I get it. I wasn't trying to down you, incidentally - you've bean a great contributor to the thread; I really appreciate your input.

I'm just stating, I guess, that there are definitely multiple ways to make good beer.

You make some really excellent points.

Agreed, this is a good thread. I'm inspired to try working with simple grain bills and focus closely on my process. Thanks

 

[BigEd]

A lot of what I have done has come from Designing Great Beers, which examined nineteen recipes (eleven of which were all grain) that had made it to at least the second round of the NHC.

The vast majority of those all grain recipes used three or four (usually four) base grains - 2 row, pilsner, Munich, Vienna. The percentages of these base grains varied wildly in balance and such.

Base grains represented 77-92 percent of the grain bill, with 82% being the average.

The vast majority used crystal malt, typically in the 10L - 60L range. Many recipes used more than one crystal.

The vast majority used a small amount of carapils or wheat. A few used both.

The average mash temp was 152.5 degrees F. None used decoction mashes.

Caramunich, melanoiden, and aromatic mals were used fairly regularly. One brewer used a small amount of chocolate malt.


I'm all for tradition and simplicity. I don't doubt for a moment that you can make an amazing ofest with 2-3 grains. I could see the fun in trying to brew an amazing beer on your skill alone with a simple ingredient list.

That being said, these beers - which largely had 5+ grains - were judged to be the best representations of the style at NHC. Heck, Biermuncher's massively popular recipe (which, I will grant, is an ale version) has seven grains in the bill.

I don't think that it's fair to generalize that a grain bill that is more complex than you might choose to brew is automatically an inferior beer.

Maybe Speed Yellow won't say it but I will. Those aren't "bad" beers but they are not what I want and they are not what I would compare with the beers from Germany. It's two different things. If you like the American take on this beer and you want to please beer judges who seem to be familiar only with the American take on this style then this is the direction to take.

 

[homebrewdad]

Maybe Speed Yellow won't say it but I will. Those aren't "bad" beers but they are not what I want and they are not what I would compare with the beers from Germany. It's two different things. If you like the American take on this beer and you want to please beer judges who seem to be familiar only with the American take on this style then this is the direction to take.

Again, excellent feedback. You, SpeedYellow, and Stonehands all have a little different perspective than I do. That being said, I have really appreciated all of the input from you guys, and you've already got me putting together the next recipe in my mind, for more of a simple, authentic shot at the style. As a matter of fact, I might solidify it a bit and look for input on it, too.

I will say that judges really aren't what I care about. I've been referencing the NHC beers because of the quality more than anything else. I have no illusions that I'm going to brew some gold medal beer because of something I read in a book.

 

[homebrewdad]

Okay. As I have mentioned, I am really intrigued by the possibilities. I'm now thinking that the next two beers that I brew will be very different interpretations of the style.

I have added a second recipe to the post #1 of this topic. The idea here is for something that would be more of a Wiesn bier.

What's funny to me is that I've seen quite a few varying grain bills from folks who are trying to brew one of these... and this includes grain bills from Germans. :cross:

At any rate, I have three grains in my first blush at this, all of which are base grains.

Two things concern me right now.

One - if I mash this low, and have only base grains, will my beer have any body at all? If not, is that a bad thing?

Two - I'm looking at a very light beer, colorwise (5.3). This has me lighter than the BJCP 3B style. Is that acceptable?

I think that's I'm pretty set on my first recipe (the darker red version with the more complex grain bill), but I'd absolutely like feedback on this second one.

Thanks!

 

[homebrewdad]

Tweak, tweak, tweak. I couldn't stand it.

Swapped out the chocolate malt for Carafa III on the original recipe, as it should have even less flavor contribution. Darkened the beer a little more... should be a really nice red, I think.

 

[StoneHands]

Alright, I'll take a stab at this. (I wish my original thread on this topic got this much attention).
For the tent beer/meadow beer/second recipe, I think the 3 grains is too complex for this beer, but I like that they're all base grains. The mash temperature is perfect. Mash low to dry it out. This isn't an adjunct laden American lager, it's an all malt German lager, with (hopefully) German malts. It's designed to be consumed by the liter, not to be too filling. It will have just a little body, but it will definitely have flavor. German pils/Munich/Vienna all have complexity to them. Don't worry about it being thin, it won't be if done correctly.

This style of beer is in the same category as Dortmunder export. As a matter of fact, at the GABF, they are two different subcategories within the same category. I struggle coming to terms with this honestly, because I think this is a special beer. I don't like lumping this beer with another more common one. The key to this style though, is process. Hitting your numbers, mash temps, and paying attention to fermentation temps and pitch rates - moreso than usual.

I've tried to brew this beer several times over the years, and I think I'm about to nail it. I say this because I think over the past few years, I've finally gotten good enough on my process, and my helles is where I want it. Brew a good helles, you can brew this beer too. That being said, I've yet to brew it properly, so maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. Here is my intended process/recipe:

6 gallons, 75% eff.
10 lbs Weyermann Pilsner
1.5 lbs Weyermann Munich II
4 oz Weyermann acidulated (I'll expand on this in a bit).
(NO cara malts, NO aromatic, NO carapils, NO wheat, nothing else - don't even think about it)
1 oz hallertau at 60 minutes
1 oz hallertau at 30, upper teens on total IBU's (might get dinged on this from you guys)

Protein rest at 130 for 15 minutes
Sacc rest at 149 for 60 minutes (or until converted)
batch sparge.
OG should be around 1.054, FG should be around 1.010.

For water, I'm going to use 3 gallons of my tap water, and 5 gallons distilled, and add 1 tsp of calcium chloride to my total water. My water dilutes fine at this ratio. Water is key I think. The acid malt above will put the pH (I think, I have no meter) in the proper range for this beer. If you go all distilled, I wouldn't change the acid amount or calcium chloride amount, and still get an excellent beer. The acid malt also adds a slight flavor addition that this beer needs IMO.

Chill to 45F, aerate the heck out of it, and then pitch a proper starter. I like Ayinger's yeast, but any lager yeast would do a fine job.

This will be my next batch, I'll update this in Sept. when it's done.

This beer would make Princess Therese proud.

 

[Brulosopher]

This was a good read about Carapils: What is Carapils?

"Caramel, cara or crystal malts are synonymous terms describing a large family of malts that are made by changing the kilning process."

So it is a crystal malt, just as I've believed for the last decade.

 

[StoneHands]

Tweak, tweak, tweak. I couldn't stand it.

Swapped out the chocolate malt for Carafa III on the original recipe, as it should have even less flavor contribution. Darkened the beer a little more... should be a really nice red, I think.

Good swap, I like that a lot more than the chocolate.

 

[SpeedYellow]

StoneHands absolutely nails it 100%. The most authentic German beer you'll make will use zero crystal malts. Base of Pilsner. Get rid of that Vienna. Just 10-15% Munich. Done. Don't worry, it won't be thin. Consider diluting your water with RO. Pitch cold yeast straight from your fridge into wort that's 45-50F. OG 1.052-1.055.

You might *think* you want malty, but make the beer both ways (american and german) and you might just be surprised which you actually prefer. Or not!

p.s. who cares about color, unless you're competing with this!

 

[homebrewdad]

Alright, I'll take a stab at this. (I wish my original thread on this topic got this much attention).
For the tent beer/meadow beer/second recipe, I think the 3 grains is too complex for this beer, but I like that they're all base grains. The mash temperature is perfect. Mash low to dry it out. This isn't an adjunct laden American lager, it's an all malt German lager, with (hopefully) German malts. It's designed to be consumed by the liter, not to be too filling. It will have just a little body, but it will definitely have flavor. German pils/Munich/Vienna all have complexity to them. Don't worry about it being thin, it won't be if done correctly.

This style of beer is in the same category as Dortmunder export. As a matter of fact, at the GABF, they are two different subcategories within the same category. I struggle coming to terms with this honestly, because I think this is a special beer. I don't like lumping this beer with another more common one. The key to this style though, is process. Hitting your numbers, mash temps, and paying attention to fermentation temps and pitch rates - moreso than usual.

I've tried to brew this beer several times over the years, and I think I'm about to nail it. I say this because I think over the past few years, I've finally gotten good enough on my process, and my helles is where I want it. Brew a good helles, you can brew this beer too. That being said, I've yet to brew it properly, so maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. Here is my intended process/recipe:

6 gallons, 75% eff.
10 lbs Weyermann Pilsner
1.5 lbs Weyermann Munich II
4 oz Weyermann acidulated (I'll expand on this in a bit).
(NO cara malts, NO aromatic, NO carapils, NO wheat, nothing else - don't even think about it)
1 oz hallertau at 60 minutes
1 oz hallertau at 30, upper teens on total IBU's (might get dinged on this from you guys)

Protein rest at 130 for 15 minutes
Sacc rest at 149 for 60 minutes (or until converted)
batch sparge.
OG should be around 1.054, FG should be around 1.010.

For water, I'm going to use 3 gallons of my tap water, and 5 gallons distilled, and add 1 tsp of calcium chloride to my total water. My water dilutes fine at this ratio. Water is key I think. The acid malt above will put the pH (I think, I have no meter) in the proper range for this beer. If you go all distilled, I wouldn't change the acid amount or calcium chloride amount, and still get an excellent beer. The acid malt also adds a slight flavor addition that this beer needs IMO.

Chill to 45F, aerate the heck out of it, and then pitch a proper starter. I like Ayinger's yeast, but any lager yeast would do a fine job.

This will be my next batch, I'll update this in Sept. when it's done.

This beer would make Princess Therese proud.

Cool, really nice input. Thanks again.

I think a big thing I needed to do was fully realize that a Wiesn bier - despite being an Oktoberfest staple - really is a different beer.

Back to the drawing board! Man, don't I hate that...

 

[homebrewdad]

StoneHands absolutely nails it 100%. The most authentic German beer you'll make will use zero crystal malts. Base of Pilsner. Get rid of that Vienna. Just 10-15% Munich. Done. Don't worry, it won't be thin. Consider diluting your water with RO. Pitch cold yeast straight from your fridge into wort that's 45-50F.

You might *think* you want malty, but make the beer both ways (american and german) and you might just be surprised which you actually prefer. Or not!

I'm definitely making the beer both ways. As far as I'm concerned, this is simply two fairly different beers.

I'm brew my big red 'fest first, then my stab in the dark at a Wiesn.

If all goes well, I'll end up with two really good beers, plus some expansion of my palate.

 

[StoneHands]

StoneHands absolutely nails it 100%. The most authentic German beer you'll make will use zero crystal malts. Base of Pilsner. Get rid of that Vienna. Just 10-15% Munich. Done. Don't worry, it won't be thin. Consider diluting your water with RO. Pitch cold yeast straight from your fridge into wort that's 45-50F. OG 1.052-1.055.

You might *think* you want malty, but make the beer both ways (american and german) and you might just be surprised which you actually prefer. Or not!

p.s. who cares about color, unless you're competing with this!

Speed, you and I are on the same page on this - I like it. If you ever make a beer like this, I'd be up for a swap.

 

[homebrewdad]

Okay, so another question for Wiesn bier.

Say I don't care about repitching yeast (since I don't harvest it, anyway). What's the absolute best strain, in your mind, for this beer?

833? 838?

 

[SpeedYellow]

Speed, you and I are on the same page on this - I like it. If you ever make a beer like this, I'd be up for a swap.

I have in the past, and will again soon. I recently used this recipe using Wyeast Kolsch (plus a little wheat) and it was absolutely amazing. The subtleties are brilliant when done right; very different from an in-your-face american style of beer.

 

[StoneHands]

Okay, so another question for Wiesn bier.

Say I don't care about repitching yeast (since I don't harvest it, anyway). What's the absolute best strain, in your mind, for this beer?

833? 838?

Somebody with more knowledge on yeast is going to have to chime in. Over the years, I've only ever used 833 and 838 (ironic that's the two you asked about). My first few lagers were with 838 and they were fine. My beers are better now with 833, but I can't tell if it's from the yeast or my process improvement, I suspect it's process improvement. The fact is, I LOVE 833. It's malty, but attenuates well. I know what it does, how long it takes, what it smells like in my starter, etc. For lagers, pick a yeast and stick with it IMO. They don't all behave the same and you'll get different results with each, but they're more subtle differences than with ale yeast.

 

[homebrewdad]

All right. On the Wiesn bier recipe, I have done the following:

Dropped Vienna altogether.
Reduced the munich by quite a bit.
Upped the Pils.
Added a small amount of acid malt.
Swapped the yeast.

Also, for my OCD's sake, I changed the style to Dortmunder Export in Beersmith. I'm now "back in the green".


Is that still too much Munich? Any other changes I should consider?

 

[StoneHands]

All right. On the Wiesn bier recipe, I have done the following:

Dropped Vienna altogether.
Reduced the munich by quite a bit.
Upped the Pils.
Added a small amount of acid malt.
Swapped the yeast.

Also, for my OCD's sake, I changed the style to Dortmunder Export in Beersmith. I'm now "back in the green".


Is that still too much Munich? Any other changes I should consider?

Looks good, very close to mine IMO (so of course I would think it looks good). It'll be slightly different than mine though, with those different percentages. Brew it up, we'll swap.