Oktober can seamer

[kjm13]

Anyone out there using an Oktober can seamer? I’m having significant oxidation issues with mine. Brewing mostly NEIPA’s right now. I do only closed transfers. I’m on a schedule where I will ferment for 12 days, cold crash for 2 (about 45f is the lowest I get with the More Beer conicals I have), pressure transfer to sanitized, pressurized kegs, carb with carb stone for about 3 or 4 hrs, then closed transfer to serving keg, and set at roughly 13psi for 5 to 7 days to finish carbing, and just batch age a bit. Beer has been coming out nice and bright, good aromatics, tastes great etc. Then I can... About 5 to 7 days later when I open a can, beer is darker, almost grayish tinged, and has an unmistakable off flavor. (This doesn’t happen to every can, but most of them) I’m using a beer gun to fill the cans right off the serving kegs (with psi turned down to 7 or so) purge each can with c02 for a full 10 seconds, fill so I displace a very small amt of beer when placing the cap on top of the can, and seam immediately. The seam itself on the can is totally fine. The only thing I can think of is maybe there is still a drop or 2 of sanitizer still in the can when I fill them, but I can’t imagine that would really do it.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thanks!

 

[Dgallo]

Is the beer in the keg oxidizing at all or are you canning your full volume? The reason I ask is my local beverage center just allowed me to can a case of my own hb on their Oktober canner 3 weeks ago and have had zero oxidize on me or the guys I shipped them to. When you purged and filled, did you star at the absolute bottom of the can? The guys was pretty fix on making sure I did this, as well as pushing the cap on with even pressure.

When you squeeze your cans, are they hard?

 

[kjm13]

The beer isn't oxidizing in the kegs that I can tell. I do can my whole volume (to make room for the next brew), but I've canned after 2+weeks without keg oxidation. I'm using a blichmann beer-gun to fill the cans, so I do start at the bottom (with c02 purge and the fill), and the cans are hard once seamed.
I'm stumped...

 

[Dgallo]

The beer isn't oxidizing in the kegs that I can tell. I do can my whole volume (to make room for the next brew), but I've canned after 2+weeks without keg oxidation. I'm using a blichmann beer-gun to fill the cans, so I do start at the bottom (with c02 purge and the fill), and the cans are hard once seamed.
I'm stumped...

Is the beer gun working correctly to your knowledge? Also I saw you mention a gray color. Oxidation in my experience goes a coppery color.not gray, gray I would contribute to trub getting back into suspension. Are you moving the keg before canning, like do you move it from you’re kegerator to somewhere else? If so you could be stirring things back up that flocced out and that’s why some cans are gray (the first few you canned) and the rest stay fine

 

[IslandLizard]

It does sound like an oxidation issue.
Are you 100% liquid pre-purging your receiving kegs? Then fill them through the liquid out post, leaving the lid on until next cleaning?

 

[kjm13]

@Dgallo - Beer gun seems to be working fine. No issues I can tell - I guess color is more copper / darker for sure, but also murky looking. I don;' think it's trub, uptake, because any can I've opened w/in 24h of canning has been fine.

@IslandLizard - I am 100% liquid purging (then pressurizing to 20psi w/ c02, and purging that down to about 2-3 psi through the pressure release valve to be sure any last few drops of sanitizer come out)
I'll post some pics of what I'm taking about...

 

[kjm13]

Picture 1 is two of the same beers on the same canning run. The one on the right is only slightly darker, but you can see it's starting to look murky. (I did open a can before these 2 from the same run that looked like mud, but I dumped it before I thought to take a pic)
Picture 2 is the same beer as picture 3 after 6 days in a can. (Pic 3 was taken just before canning after 7 or 8 days in the keg).
Picture 4 is my closed transfer from fermentor to keg, and 5 is my closed transfer from the carbing keg (with a carb stone on the end of a wand) to the serving keg.

 

[kjm13]

I know none of those look really bad, but I've had some really muddy looking beers. I'l take a pic the next time I open one that looks like that and post it. I haven't wanted to document beers that look that bad...

 

[jmcquesten]

I know none of those look really bad, but I've had some really muddy looking beers. I'l take a pic the next time I open one that looks like that and post it. I haven't wanted to document beers that look that bad...

Can you explain your beergun procedure a bit more? Why are you dialing it down to 7 psi? I had to mess with my beergun quite a bit to get it right. I don't can, so I got nothing there.

 

[kjm13]

Can you explain your beergun procedure a bit more? Why are you dialing it down to 7 psi? I had to mess with my beergun quite a bit to get it right. I don't can, so I got nothing there.

I dial back to 7 just to prevent excessive foaming when filling. But what I do exactly is:
Untap keg, disconnect beer line from the keg coupler, attach beer gun to the beer out port of the coupler, retap keg. Purge the beer gun into a pint glass or whatever. Then start purging and filling cans from the bottom. I used to place the gun in a bucket of sanitizer between each can, but I thought that might be getting too many drops of sanitizer in each can, so I stoped doing that. Now I just lay it on sanitizer paper towels between each can.

 

[jmcquesten]

Pm'd you about this discussion on beergun use. It may help.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7624900

 

[jmcquesten]

I don't know that this has anything to do with your possible oxidation issue, but it will get you better results using a beergun.

 

[IslandLizard]

@kjm13

I'm really puzzled about what causes the darkening/oxidation you're experiencing. From what I can see and read, you do everything as right as can be.

As long as the beergun doesn't suck air somewhere during its use, a) the can itself and b) the filling method, are what's left for more scrutiny, IMO.
a) Is it the can, the material?

b) Flushing an open can has limitations on how much air can be purged that way. But how much O2 can be left after filling with beer and capping on foam, immediately after?

Most tap rooms I've been at that sell crowlers rinse the can with sanitizer, flush with a CO2 wand, fill from faucet, and cap on foam, then seam. Most are 32 oz crowlers, you have 12oz or pint cans. Could that make a difference?

 

[kjm13]

@IslandLizard - I think I might have a theory... I reached out to Oktober, and the guy who emailed me back said something about the possiblity of "sucking air back in by squeezing the can", and I think he may be on to something. What I have been doing is filling the can (as above) putting the cap on, and pressing down the lid with my finger to displace that small amount of beer. Then I pick up the can and walk it over to my can seamer, put it in and seal. I'm really gentile, but I bet when I release the can, it may just be enough negative pressure to suck in some air. I'm going to try moving my seamer, so it's in the same place as where I fill (this will be a challenge, but I'll figure it out), place the lid on gently (so it's floating on the foam), put the can in the machine, and let the upper chuck displace that small amount of beer when I close the door to raise the can into place. That's the only thing I can think of. I can't imagine the gun is sucking in air, and I don't think the size of the can matters.

I'm canning again tonight or tomorrow, so I'll report back on this one...
Thanks!!
K

 

[verboten]

That'a a pretty good call! When I can at the brewery, I use the machine itself to push the top down after just setting it on by hand.

 

[IslandLizard]

@IslandLizard - I think I might have a theory... I reached out to Oktober, and the guy who emailed me back said something about the possiblity of "sucking air back in by squeezing the can", and I think he may be on to something. What I have been doing is filling the can (as above) putting the cap on, and pressing down the lid with my finger to displace that small amount of beer. Then I pick up the can and walk it over to my can seamer, put it in and seal. I'm really gentile, but I bet when I release the can, it may just be enough negative pressure to suck in some air. I'm going to try moving my seamer, so it's in the same place as where I fill (this will be a challenge, but I'll figure it out), place the lid on gently (so it's floating on the foam), put the can in the machine, and let the upper chuck displace that small amount of beer when I close the door to raise the can into place. That's the only thing I can think of. I can't imagine the gun is sucking in air, and I don't think the size of the can matters.

I'm canning again tonight or tomorrow, so I'll report back on this one...
Thanks!!
K

Glad you found something that can be improved upon!
Many brewery/tap rooms move the filled can from the taps to the seamer, stick a lid on it there and put it in the machine. You may have some leeway where to locate the seamer, as long as you're steady with a full can.

Please keep us updated, I'm sure we're all anxious to hear whether that fixes it for you, and possibly others.

 

[kjm13]

New canning set up, so I can minimize moving the full can. (The seamer JUST fit in that spot, I didn’t think it was going to) It’s a messier process to not wipe the can before putting in the seamer, put if it solves my 02 ingress problem, happy to clean up the mess after!!

 

[kjm13]

This is what my super tasty, bright yellow NEIPA looks like after 10 days in the can... Damn oxygen. Maybe I should open a brewery on the moon....

At least we drank (and gave away) a fair amount of it in the first few days after I canned.

Live and learn!

 

[IslandLizard]

That's really sad looking. ^
I hope your new canning process fixed that. Too early to tell yet...

 

[kjm13]

So, tonight I got my definitive proof. So... just about 2 weeks ago, I canned the last batch of my NEIPA. While we were in the process, one of the cans got really foamy. I put a sticky note on it and set it aside so I would be sure not to give the "bad can" to anyone else. Well - as you know (if you have been following this thread), that NEIPA turned to mud in the cans. Tonight, I decided to open them all, and sure enough they were all pretty muddy looking. Then I came across the one with the sticky note, and thought, this will be the worst one for sure. Then I opened it. Guess which is which... I swear on my life, this is the exact same beer canned at the exact same time... Mind blown.

 

[IslandLizard]

So, tonight I got my definitive proof. So... just about 2 weeks ago, I canned the last batch of my NEIPA. While we were in the process, one of the cans got really foamy. I put a sticky note on it and set it aside so I would be sure not to give the "bad can" to anyone else. Well - as you know (if you have been following this thread), that NEIPA turned to mud in the cans. Tonight, I decided to open them all, and sure enough they were all pretty muddy looking. Then I came across the one with the sticky note, and thought, this will be the worst one for sure. Then I opened it. Guess which is which... I swear on my life, this is the exact same beer canned at the exact same time... Mind blown.

View attachment 633647

That is a remarkable test!
So, what do you think was the main difference at filling? Could you replicate it in the future? Foam is foam, you would think...

 

[Scturo]

I would guess that your cans aren’t sealing properly. You should probably do a seam test to check.

 

[kjm13]

I’m pretty sure I was overfilling the cans. Then pushing down the lid to displace that beer, then picking up the can and walking it across the room to the canned, and during that process sucking air back into the cans. It’s been 7 days now since I canned the last batch with the method of floating the cap, then letting the seamer push out the beer when put in the machine. I’ll open a can tonight and post a pic.

 

[WBB]

I would guess that your cans aren’t sealing properly. You should probably do a seam test to check.

After reading through this, this came to mind. When I got my seamer it was out of spec even though it was was supposed to be in spec from the factory. They test them before they leave? Anyways, got mine in spec and still experience the odd can that doesn’t seal even though it does appear to be sealed. The ever so slight seepage.

Question. When you fill the can with co2 and then fill can with beer to top enough to displace any air with putting the top on, why are you squeezing the can?

I fill mine, prepurging with co2, at my kegerator, put on a platter, put the tops on, walk across the room to the seamer, place the can on the seamer and seal. Can’t recall any oxidation issues. Are you squeezing enough to dent the can?

 

[kjm13]

After reading through this, this came to mind. When I got my seamer it was out of spec even though it was was supposed to be in spec from the factory. They test them before they leave? Anyways, got mine in spec and still experience the odd can that doesn’t seal even though it does appear to be sealed. The ever so slight seepage.

Question. When you fill the can with co2 and then fill can with beer to top enough to displace any air with putting the top on, why are you squeezing the can?

I fill mine, prepurging with co2, at my kegerator, put on a platter, put the tops on, walk across the room to the seamer, place the can on the seamer and seal. Can’t recall any oxidation issues. Are you squeezing enough to dent the can?

I was only squeezing the can hard enough to pick them up and move them, but because I had already displaced the beer with the lids, any squeezing must have them created enough negative pressure in the cans that when released, air was sucked back in. I’m convinced now the issue was technique related. None of the cans from my last 2 runs have any oxidation issue, since I changed my filling / seaming technique, and one has been canned for 10 days now.

 

[kjm13]

Well, as promised here is an updated pic. This was canned on 6/25 with the new technique, and there are no signs of oxidation. I opened a few yesterday, and they all looked the same. Mystery solved!

 

[flintoid]

this was a very informative read, kjm13. I just received my Canular canner and will be sure to implement your methods to limit oxygen exposure.

I'm going to pick your brain a bit: Do you cool your cans before canning? I've read that this can help oxygen retention on the can itself.

 

[kjm13]

this was a very informative read, kjm13. I just received my Canular canner and will be sure to implement your methods to limit oxygen exposure.

I'm going to pick your brain a bit: Do you cool your cans before canning? I've read that this can help oxygen retention on the can itself.

I kind of do. I sanitize my cans by dunking them in Star san, then tip them upside down on a sanitized surface. I use cold water when mixing up the Star san. Didn’t know that could help with the 02 issue. I’ll use the coldest possible water going forward. Thanks.

 

[kjm13]

Well - I guess the mystery wasn't completely solved. I found a few muddy cans of a beer I canned right after this post after returning from a 3 week trip. I think I have it now though. I think I overfilled those cans. No sure how that would do it, but I found if there was absolutely no head space in the can, those are they ones that get muddy. If there is some head-space, in the can from capping on foam (vs. directly on liquid) those cans are fine. So the final lesson here (I hope) is don't overfill the cans!
Cheers!

 

[WBB]

I kind of do. I sanitize my cans by dunking them in Star san, then tip them upside down on a sanitized surface. I use cold water when mixing up the Star san. Didn’t know that could help with the 02 issue. I’ll use the coldest possible water going forward. Thanks. View attachment 636168

I used to do this. Dip them in star San, tip them upside down etc. Now I just rinse the cans and lids with tap water and put on paper towels upside down. Notice when breweries fill Crowlers they may rinse on the same rinser they use for glasses and then put the top on. And the don’t even rinse those, the lids.

 

[kjm13]

I used to do this. Dip them in star San, tip them upside down etc. Now I just rinse the cans and lids with tap water and put on paper towels upside down. Notice when breweries fill Crowlers they may rinse on the same rinser they use for glasses and then put the top on. And the don’t even rinse those, the lids.

Yes. I’ve noticed that too, but when a brewery fills a crowler for you the expectation is you will drink it in the next few days. When I’m canning, it’s usually about 4 cases at a time, and some cans may not be opened for 3 months or more. So I think sanitization is more important under those circumstances. And... when I’m not brewing, I’m an RN in my day job, so... yeah - I have to clean and sanitize everything! [emoji849]

 

[WBB]

So if you’re putting in alcohol and sealing out air, what is going to grow inside the can? But then again, we sanitize kegs before transferring the finished beer into them. Didn’t have anything against using sanitizer and will most likely go back to doing that.

I wonder what the big boys do with their cans? I mean I know they’re rinsing them, but are they using purified water or sanitizer?

 

[flintoid]

One of the things I've noticed while canning with a beer gun is that the beer gun post displaces beer when in the can. Once you remove this beer gun the beer level drops maybe 5mm.

When this happens the C02 "barrier" drops and air must be pulled in.

So I have started drawing the beer gun up to the top of the can when filling. And at the end the only displacement in the beer is the tip.

I have a few "foam" and "no foam" can exbeeriments that I did with this technique in the fridge for the upcoming week. I'll be sure to report back.

 

[WBB]

So I stopped by the alchemist and they were doing a canning run. Asked the guy behind the counter what they were using to rinse their cans and he said just the RO water front their water system. The lids didn’t even get a rinse. Straight from the paper sleeve into the hopper. I said no star San? He said no that would be a hell of a lot of star San to go through.

 

[flintoid]

Update on this experiment: I canned 10 beers while leaving the beer gun fully inserted into the can (tip pressed against the bottom of the can) and 10 that I tried to keep the tip of the beer gun as close to the surface of the rising beer as possible (without foaming it or exposing it to air).

of the 10 that the beer gun remained stationary, over a months amount of time, 3 definitely oxidized horribly. 2 seemed to, but I drank them within a week of canning.

Of the 10 that I "moved" or "followed" the beer gun to the rising beer level, none of them oxidized. I made sure not to squeeze these cans as was advised earlier in this thread. I had my last of these this week- and they seemed pretty damn good. The hop aromas (NEIPA) were still pretty good and on par with a 1 month old commercial beer. Color and taste were on point, lacking oxidization.

One of the things I've noticed while canning with a beer gun is that the beer gun post displaces beer when in the can. Once you remove this beer gun the beer level drops maybe 5mm.

When this happens the C02 "barrier" drops and air must be pulled in.

So I have started drawing the beer gun up to the top of the can when filling. And at the end the only displacement in the beer is the tip.

I have a few "foam" and "no foam" can exbeeriments that I did with this technique in the fridge for the upcoming week. I'll be sure to report back.

 

[pedcana]

Well - I guess the mystery wasn't completely solved. I found a few muddy cans of a beer I canned right after this post after returning from a 3 week trip. I think I have it now though. I think I overfilled those cans. No sure how that would do it, but I found if there was absolutely no head space in the can, those are they ones that get muddy. If there is some head-space, in the can from capping on foam (vs. directly on liquid) those cans are fine. So the final lesson here (I hope) is don't overfill the cans!
Cheers!

What is the conclusion? Did you do more tests?

 

[Oberstbrau]

Here's a counter pressure cap on foam alternative:

 

[kjm13]

Well, I know it’s been a while, but I finally got it. I spoke with someone from a mobil canning company (Tim Little @state 64 who is amazing) The key points are make the beer colder, be sure there is plenty of foam, and most importantly, can to the proper weight! This is the weight of water for the size of your can (355grams for 12oz, 473grams for 16oz) x final gravity of the beer you are canning + the tare weight of the can.
Cheers! [emoji482]