Ok, I'm not just being paranoid about infections...

[cheeseshark]

I suggest this: find another nearby brewer and ask if you can take your gear to their house to brew a batch. Then have them WATCH (and watch only-- no helping) while you brew the batch.

They are looking for where your process introduces a contaminant--- you might not even be aware of your behavior.


By doing it at their house you have eliminated your hosue as the infection source.

Yeah, that is really about the only thing I thought of that was left to try. I have literally lost sleep over this - it is not something I want to give up, but I don't want to keep throwing away money on ingredients, either.

What do people think about maybe something living in my glass carboys? I don't see any scratches, and I bleached them, but everything else was replaced. I thought of maybe just using a new ale pail and see what might happen, but I think the new brew place might be a better place to try.

One other thing, reference the basement (where I usually ferment / bottle condition and keep my equipment). Do people think there is much of a chance of the basement causing the problem? I mean, I brew upstairs or outside, once anything is in the basement, the airlock is on or the beer is capped.... Any thoughts?

This is just soooo frustrating. So many people seem to have little to zero problems with infections, and mine turns sour seemingly at the drop of a hat... I mean, when people INTENTIONALLY sour beer, it takes longer than it takes for mine to turn sour unintentionally. Ok, end of whine.

Thanks for all the help so far everyone....

 

[slimer]

I only ferment in the basement. Everything else is done upstairs/outside.

One more thing. I don't use an autosiphon. I have a regular old siphon and I use a turkey baster with the end cut off to siphon. That way I can take everything apart and make sure it's sanitized. I just suck until it fills the bottom of the turkey baster, disconnect, and it flows.

Something else: have you brewed with Brett or Lacto?

 

[cheeseshark]

I only ferment in the basement. Everything else is done upstairs/outside.

One more thing. I don't use an autosiphon. I have a regular old siphon and I use a turkey baster with the end cut off to siphon. That way I can take everything apart and make sure it's sanitized. I just suck until it fills the bottom of the turkey baster, disconnect, and it flows.

Something else: have you brewed with Brett or Lacto?

Nope, I have never brewed with Brett or Lacto...

My autosiphon for these batches was brand new, too.

 

[killian]

to me it sounds like you are picking this up at bottling. I had an infection with a batch a while back and it turned out to be when I was bottling I was using a bottling bucket and no lid so the beer was sitting out in the open air while bottling. I would recommend using a corny keg to bottle.

 

[cheeseshark]

Ok, after reading everyone's contributions and thinking about it, I have come up with a few options. What does everyone think?

1. Find a new hobby.

2. Brew at someone else's house using my equipment, and try to find another brewer to watch (testing theory that there is something specific to my house causing the repeated problems and/or that I'm an idiot - by the way, I'm sure a lot of people reading this thread probably have thought that I'm an idiot and am missing some super obvious part of sanitation, but I really think I'm pretty darn careful about sanitation).

3. Brew at my house using a friend's ale pail (testing theory that the infections are somehow caused by my glass carboys - a stretch I know, but I'm running out of ideas here - and keeping in my mind that I replaced pretty much all my equipment except mash tun, and one of the latest infected batches was an extract batch).

4. Buy an air cleaner, buy some nice furnace filters and brew using my same equipment (testing theory that the infections are airborne - I figure this option would not hurt, regardless).

5. Give up bottling, transfer straight from primary to keg (testing theory that the infections are somehow related to bottling). Caveat on this one - I have never kegged, don't own any kegging equipment, so I would be running the danger of buying new equipment just to infect it.

That's all I have...

Did I mention this sucks? I really, really want to make some beer today - but no use wasting money on ingredients. I have the next few days off, too...

 

[flyangler18]

On the off-chance that you might have inadvertently introduced lacto during transfer, do you mill your grain in close proximity to your fermenters?

Also, can you document your steps when transferring from primary to the bottling bucket just in case something stands out? Be as specific and detailed as possible.

 

[cheeseshark]

On the off-chance that you might have inadvertently introduced lacto during transfer, do you mill your grain in close proximity to your fermenters?

Also, can you document your steps when transferring from primary to the bottling bucket just in case something stands out? Be as specific and detailed as possible.

No, I don't mill grain near my fermenters.

Primary to bottling procedure:
-Move primary (airlock still attached) from basement to kitchen counter. Let sit about an hour (I usually wrap a clean towel around it to keep sun out).
-Put autosiphon, spigot (which was brand new this time - but I put the spigot, washers, and nut in the sanitizer bucket separately), and tubing in sanitizer bucket full of Star San. Run sanitizer through autosiphon, tubing, and spigot.
-Let that sit for 2 minutes.
-Dump some of sanitizer in bottling bucket, shake it around (obviously it spills out since there is a hole in bucket for spigot).
-Attach spigot. Dump most of sanitizer in bottlling bucket (leaving autosiphon and tubing in sanitizing bucket with some sanitizer). Let sit for about 5 minutes. Drain some sanitizer through spigot. Close spigot. Dump out rest of sanitizer.
-Take airlock out of fermenter. Put autosiphon in fermenter. Attach tubing. Put tubing in bottling bucket. This last time I then put sanitized plastic wrap on the top of the bottling bucket, taking care to cover it completely. Before that, I used a lid (both ways, yielding infected beer)
-Dump in sugar / water which was boiled for five minutes.
-Start autosiphon.
-While that is going, sanitize clean bottles in star san for 2 minutes per batch. Caps are also sanitized in star san for 2 minutes. Bottling wand also goes in there, taken apart.
-Spray spigot with spray bottle of star san. Attach tubing and bottling wand to spigot. Fill bottles. I place caps on bottles as I go along, then actually cap them after they are all filled.

 

[kornkob]

(testing theory that there is something specific to my house causing the repeated problems and/or that I'm an idiot - by the way, I'm sure a lot of people reading this thread probably have thought that I'm an idiot and am missing some super obvious part of sanitation, but I really think I'm pretty darn careful about sanitation).

It's not about being an idiot or not being careful. I'm just thinking that there is possibly an unconscious habit that you have.

Or an environmental factor.

Another way to check your process: carefully document it--- with pictures taken by a non-brewer. Often times when you are forced to describe in detail and educate someone on a process, you will be much more aware of what it is you do.

 

[flyangler18]

Do you run a kitchen fan or have any obvious drafts during bottling?

Are you washing your bottles prior to sanitizing?

 

[cheeseshark]

Do you run a kitchen fan or have any obvious drafts during bottling?

Are you washing your bottles prior to sanitizing?

Well, on this last set of batches, I turned off the furnace about an hour before starting. No on the kitchen fan.

I wash my bottles in Oxy Clean.

 

[flyangler18]

I wash my bottles in Oxy Clean.

Rinsing? If not, the foul taste may be attributed to chlorophenols.

 

[cheeseshark]

Rinsing? If not, the foul taste may be attributed to chlorophenols.

Yes on the rinsing.

 

[chumprock]

If it takes about two months for the sour to appear your solution would be to drink it faster!

Do you top off with water? where does the water you brew with come from?
Have you tried brewing with bottled water?

 

[cheeseshark]

If it takes about two months for the sour to appear your solution would be to drink it faster!

Do you top off with water? where does the water you brew with come from?
Have you tried brewing with bottled water?

No on the topping off. I do full boils. I use tap water, but it is all boiled since I do full boils.

 

[de_ronde]

How do you clean the bottles? Hot Oxy Clean Solution and a bottle brush?
How are they being dried? Upside down in the dishwasher or do you have a bottle tree?

How are you using the star san with the bottles?

If your last batch tasted fine while racking out of the secondary... I'd be worried about something in the bottles.

I have never had an infection. I think that I am fairly diligent about bottle cleaning / sanitation.

My process:

1 - 2 days before bottling day, pre-wash all bottles with Oxy Clean and a bottle brush to make sure that they are label free, clear, and have nothing lurking in them. I put them on a bottle tree to dry.

On bottling day, I wash all bottles inside and out with Oxy Clean and use a bottle jet washer with hot water to blast them all out with super hot water.

I then sanitize the inside with no rinse sanitizer using a Vinator bottle rinser.

They sit upside down in the sanitized dishwasher while bottling.

 

[cheeseshark]

How do you clean the bottles? Hot Oxy Clean Solution and a bottle brush?
How are they being dried? Upside down in the dishwasher or do you have a bottle tree?

How are you using the star san with the bottles?

If your last batch tasted fine while racking out of the secondary... I'd be worried about something in the bottles.

I have never had an infection. I think that I am fairly diligent about bottle cleaning / sanitation.

My process:

1 - 2 days before bottling day, pre-wash all bottles with Oxy Clean and a bottle brush to make sure that they are label free, clear, and have nothing lurking in them. I put them on a bottle tree to dry.

On bottling day, I wash all bottles inside and out with Oxy Clean and use a bottle jet washer with hot water to blast them all out with super hot water.

I then sanitize the inside with no rinse sanitizer using a Vinator bottle rinser.

They sit upside down in the sanitized dishwasher while bottling.

Thanks for the tips on your bottling procedure. I only clean once, but given my current situation, a second time sure could not hurt!!.

As far as how I use the star san for sanitizng, I dip each batch of bottles in a bucket full of star san for 2 minutes each. I'll also add that some of the bottles on these recently infected batches were brand new, never used (I still sanitized, but I'm just saying the chances of bad things lurking seems less).

And, yes, I use a bottling tree to dry.

 

[killian]

I was talking with a microbiologist I know and he was saying something about how he uses his turkey fryer to reduce the potential contaminants in the air.

I am in no way recommending this just relaying info.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Rinsing? If not, the foul taste may be attributed to chlorophenols.

Chlorphenols are from chlorine, not oxyclean.

I personally think that you have airborne contaminants. Is it dusty in your bottling room?

Try spraying a bit of sulfite/water onto the top of the bucket before bottling.

 

[flyangler18]

Chlorphenols are from chlorine, not oxyclean.

Yeah, but the OP has also been using bleach to knock out the infection. Just exploring some possibilities.

While not chlorine, I'm sure unrinsed oxyclean will have some foul tasting flavors of its own.

 

[EvilTOJ]

Ah, this thread again I was hoping your issue was resolved. I must say that even after my bleach holocaust, I was still getting ruined batches. I finally solved my dilemma by moving. I'm pretty certain I had airborne contaminates. Now, I'm not saying you have to move or possibly burn your place down, but I think bottling or racking should be done in an entirely new place than what you've been using before. Does the air in your place have any odor at all? My apartment always stank because my roommate had a dog and he (OK WE) was a slob.

Ooo try this: Make a small beer, maybe a SMaSH with a little bit of hops to it and a cheap packet of muntons. I'm talkin cheap as hell since this'll be for experimentation. After it's done boiling, rack and cool into several gallon jugs and let it ferment away in the jugs. Then bottle in several different locations, one jug in the kitchen, one in the garage, one for outside (?) or anywhere else you can think you'll be able to bottle. Mark the bottles as to what location you bottled in and let em sit. Drink cheap whisky while you wait for them to bottle condition. Then test.

 

[cheeseshark]

Yeah, but the OP has also been using bleach to knock out the infection. Just exploring some possibilities.

While not chlorine, I'm sure unrinsed oxyclean will have some foul tasting flavors of its own.

I think I'll run a couple bottles over to my LHBS this afternoon and see if I can convince someone to take a swig and offer their opinion about what the infection might be. It is distinctly sour to me though.

 

[cheeseshark]

Ah, this thread again I was hoping your issue was resolved. I must say that even after my bleach holocaust, I was still getting ruined batches. I finally solved my dilemma by moving. I'm pretty certain I had airborne contaminates. Now, I'm not saying you have to move or possibly burn your place down, but I think bottling or racking should be done in an entirely new place than what you've been using before. Does the air in your place have any odor at all? My apartment always stank because my roommate had a dog and he (OK WE) was a slob.

Ooo try this: Make a small beer, maybe a SMaSH with a little bit of hops to it and a cheap packet of muntons. I'm talkin cheap as hell since this'll be for experimentation. After it's done boiling, rack and cool into several gallon jugs and let it ferment away in the jugs. Then bottle in several different locations, one jug in the kitchen, one in the garage, one for outside (?) or anywhere else you can think you'll be able to bottle. Mark the bottles as to what location you bottled in and let em sit. Drink cheap whisky while you wait for them to bottle condition. Then test.

Like you and Denny's Evil Concoctions suggested, I think the problem is airborne contaminants. I'm going to try his suggestion of cleaning my air up a bit.

I like your idea about drinking cheap whisky. You may have mentioned other things, but I get distracted.

Seriously though, I think the next steps needs to be bottling in another location and seeing what happens. Your several different locations, same batch seems smart. While that is going on, I'll work on cleaning up the air here a bit.

Have you had no problems since moving? Did you continue to use the same equipment?

 

[cheeseshark]

I was talking with a microbiologist I know and he was saying something about how he uses his turkey fryer to reduce the potential contaminants in the air.

I am in no way recommending this just relaying info.

Care to elaborate?

 

[cheeseshark]

Chlorphenols are from chlorine, not oxyclean.

I personally think that you have airborne contaminants. Is it dusty in your bottling room?

Try spraying a bit of sulfite/water onto the top of the bucket before bottling.

Thanks for the continuing advice. Have you continued to have no problems since your air has been cleaned up?

 

[hammacks]

Hey Cheeseshark,

How about bottling without the spigot? Actually it would be best without the spigot and wand. I'm sure somebody knows a good way to deal with that. Maybe siphon with a hose clamp inline - may need a helper.

Where do you bottle (you might have mentioned it but I can't remember? Could you clean your kitchen very well with bleach and bottle in there after everything is squeeky clean?

Oh, and blast anything that makes you the tiniest bit nervous with starsan in a spray bottle.

 

[cheeseshark]

Took my last two batches to the LHBS (a very reputable place). The owner tasted them and confirmed that I wasn't just being paranoid, they were infected.

He said that he strongly doubted the possibility of an airborne contaminant. He said that the reason he didn't think it was an airborne contaminant was because he has tasted infected beers like mine before, and if it was a house contaminant, it would be a unique taste.

He said to be more careful of sanitation, which is obviously a standard response (and I am sure simple sanitation is the problem 99% of the time). Like I explained to him, I'm not sure how I could be more careful. He then suggested that I switch from Star San to Iodophor. He admitted that he has never heard of anyone having problems with Star San, but like me he was pretty much out of ideas. He said he had never recommended switching sanitizers from Star San ever, but again, he was out of ideas. So, I did get some Iodophor.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

The same bacteria that cause souring also float amongst dust. He's not correct. I've neveer heard of a "house" contaminant with a "unique" taste.

 

[cheeseshark]

The same bacteria that casue souring also float amongst dust. He's not quite correct.

Maybe I'm just being crazy, or maybe not, but I think I'm developing indoor allergies, too. When I'm in the house, I'm all stuffed up, itchy eyes, etc. An hour or so after leaving the house, I feel fine. So, that could lend credence to the airborne contaminants. I bought a nice furnace filter today, and was just looking at air cleaners on amazon.

 

[Catt22]

While bacteria can't fly or crawl, they can hitch a ride on dust particles so there is always a chance that an infection can be airborne. Wild yeast and other fungi float around in the air too.

Dust from a grain mill has already been mentioned, but simply handling the grain weighing it out and such will kick up some dust. I try to bottle in an area separate from the malt in any form and even then I always try to minimize wort exposure as much as possible. I haven't had any infection problems and I dread the day it happens. I would declare all out war on all fronts.

 

[slimer]

Maybe I'm just being crazy, or maybe not, but I think I'm developing indoor allergies, too. When I'm in the house, I'm all stuffed up, itchy eyes, etc. An hour or so after leaving the house, I feel fine. So, that could lend credence to the airborne contaminants. I bought a nice furnace filter today, and was just looking at air cleaners on amazon.

I've been getting the same way ovr the past few months. I don't know what it is...

 

[Beerthoven]

You never mentioned cleaning or sanitizing your bottle caps. Do you grab them from a big bag that you've had around for a while? I always rinse my caps in oxyclean and give them a starsan soak.

 

[cheeseshark]

You never mentioned cleaning or sanitizing your bottle caps. Do you grab them from a big bag that you've had around for a while? I always rinse my caps in oxyclean and give them a starsan soak.

I sanitize my caps in Star San (although there is apparently quite a bit of controversy about this topic... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/caps-sanitize-not-sanitize-107824/

 

[killian]

Care to elaborate?

I'm not exactly sure what he was saying but what I got out of it was that the flame would lift the dust, contaminant, etc..

I wish I paid closer attention to what he was saying, but the recommendation to use a burner like that in the house just through me for a loop. Sorry for the incomplete info, if I run into him again I will see what he has to say.

 

[Catt22]

What method are you using to chill the beer? A CFC could be a source of contamination. Seems we've hit on about every other possibility.

 

[cheeseshark]

What method are you using to chill the beer? A CFC could be a source of contamination. Seems we've hit on about every other possibility.

Good thought, but I just use a basic copper immersion chiller.

 

[HOW]

I too have had a persistent infection problem. I spoiled batch after batch (probably 8).

I tossed buckets, hose and siphons. I switched from diversol to OxiClean and StarSan.
I soaked equipment in bleach then metabisulphite, I changed rooms and sprayed hands, counters and all surfaces with StarSan and STILL had infections.

My solutions (I have had two successful batches):
1. Didn’t use distilled water for the StarSan. The priming bucket was sprayed down with this StarSan and then sealed and stored. The PH probably rose above 3.5;
2. I was fermenting in my furnace room – the forced air furnace had a dirty filter;
3. I fermented in a storage room – I spilled a couple of litres of wine which may have left some residual nasties in the air;
4. My tap water MAY not be clean enough so I switched to filtered water for brewing;
5. I bought a keg system (no bottles). I’m certain I wasn’t as clean as I should have been with bottle washing and storage. I don’t think a soak in Oxi then storing with StarSan inside was clean/sanitized enough. In most batches I didn’t use distilled water and the StarSan probably rose above 3.5PH;

I almost gave up. I’d suggest tossing all equipment. The only thing I kept was my carboys as I was ‘sure’ (IOW too cheap to throw them out) that they weren’t the problem.

 

[Clayton]

why are you old timers holding back the goods??
dude all you have to do is pee on it.
Yeah, Oh Yeah ,, Pee just do it in a bucket and wash your stuff with it
contamanations say bye bye.
case closed.


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/first-time-no-sanitizer-peed-14423/

 

[Snafu]

ewwwwwwww

 

[cheeseshark]

I too have had a persistent infection problem. I spoiled batch after batch (probably 8).

I tossed buckets, hose and siphons. I switched from diversol to OxiClean and StarSan.
I soaked equipment in bleach then metabisulphite, I changed rooms and sprayed hands, counters and all surfaces with StarSan and STILL had infections.

My solutions (I have had two successful batches):
1. Didn’t use distilled water for the StarSan. The priming bucket was sprayed down with this StarSan and then sealed and stored. The PH probably rose above 3.5;
2. I was fermenting in my furnace room – the forced air furnace had a dirty filter;
3. I fermented in a storage room – I spilled a couple of litres of wine which may have left some residual nasties in the air;
4. My tap water MAY not be clean enough so I switched to filtered water for brewing;
5. I bought a keg system (no bottles). I’m certain I wasn’t as clean as I should have been with bottle washing and storage. I don’t think a soak in Oxi then storing with StarSan inside was clean/sanitized enough. In most batches I didn’t use distilled water and the StarSan probably rose above 3.5PH;

I almost gave up. I’d suggest tossing all equipment. The only thing I kept was my carboys as I was ‘sure’ (IOW too cheap to throw them out) that they weren’t the problem.

Cool, that is helpful. I am pretty much down to my carboys as the only thing I have not replaced (bench capper is the same too - although I sprayed that with bleach just because). I can't say I have ever tested the ph of my Star San, and I do use tap water, although I don't keep my star san sitting around, I just use it right away.

I have a couple weeks to think about all this, my next few weeks of days off are otherwise occupied, not allowing for any brewing.

 

[KevinP]

No, I don't mill grain near my fermenters.

Primary to bottling procedure:
-Move primary (airlock still attached) from basement to kitchen counter. Let sit about an hour (I usually wrap a clean towel around it to keep sun out).
-Put autosiphon, spigot (which was brand new this time - but I put the spigot, washers, and nut in the sanitizer bucket separately), and tubing in sanitizer bucket full of Star San. Run sanitizer through autosiphon, tubing, and spigot.
-Let that sit for 2 minutes.
-Dump some of sanitizer in bottling bucket, shake it around (obviously it spills out since there is a hole in bucket for spigot).
-Attach spigot. Dump most of sanitizer in bottlling bucket (leaving autosiphon and tubing in sanitizing bucket with some sanitizer). Let sit for about 5 minutes. Drain some sanitizer through spigot. Close spigot. Dump out rest of sanitizer.
-Take airlock out of fermenter. Put autosiphon in fermenter. Attach tubing. Put tubing in bottling bucket. This last time I then put sanitized plastic wrap on the top of the bottling bucket, taking care to cover it completely. Before that, I used a lid (both ways, yielding infected beer)
-Dump in sugar / water which was boiled for five minutes.
-Start autosiphon.
-While that is going, sanitize clean bottles in star san for 2 minutes per batch. Caps are also sanitized in star san for 2 minutes. Bottling wand also goes in there, taken apart.
-Spray spigot with spray bottle of star san. Attach tubing and bottling wand to spigot. Fill bottles. I place caps on bottles as I go along, then actually cap them after they are all filled.

After you move your fermenter up from you basement, do you sanitize the outside of it before you open it? Maybe something is landing on it and getting dropped into the beer when you remove the airlock?

I hope you figure out what is causing this and not have the problem just mysteriously go away.