Ok, I'm not just being paranoid about infections...

[cheeseshark]

Yeah, but the OP has also been using bleach to knock out the infection. Just exploring some possibilities.

While not chlorine, I'm sure unrinsed oxyclean will have some foul tasting flavors of its own.

I think I'll run a couple bottles over to my LHBS this afternoon and see if I can convince someone to take a swig and offer their opinion about what the infection might be. It is distinctly sour to me though.

 

[cheeseshark]

Ah, this thread again I was hoping your issue was resolved. I must say that even after my bleach holocaust, I was still getting ruined batches. I finally solved my dilemma by moving. I'm pretty certain I had airborne contaminates. Now, I'm not saying you have to move or possibly burn your place down, but I think bottling or racking should be done in an entirely new place than what you've been using before. Does the air in your place have any odor at all? My apartment always stank because my roommate had a dog and he (OK WE) was a slob.

Ooo try this: Make a small beer, maybe a SMaSH with a little bit of hops to it and a cheap packet of muntons. I'm talkin cheap as hell since this'll be for experimentation. After it's done boiling, rack and cool into several gallon jugs and let it ferment away in the jugs. Then bottle in several different locations, one jug in the kitchen, one in the garage, one for outside (?) or anywhere else you can think you'll be able to bottle. Mark the bottles as to what location you bottled in and let em sit. Drink cheap whisky while you wait for them to bottle condition. Then test.

Like you and Denny's Evil Concoctions suggested, I think the problem is airborne contaminants. I'm going to try his suggestion of cleaning my air up a bit.

I like your idea about drinking cheap whisky. You may have mentioned other things, but I get distracted.

Seriously though, I think the next steps needs to be bottling in another location and seeing what happens. Your several different locations, same batch seems smart. While that is going on, I'll work on cleaning up the air here a bit.

Have you had no problems since moving? Did you continue to use the same equipment?

 

[cheeseshark]

I was talking with a microbiologist I know and he was saying something about how he uses his turkey fryer to reduce the potential contaminants in the air.

I am in no way recommending this just relaying info.

Care to elaborate?

 

[cheeseshark]

Chlorphenols are from chlorine, not oxyclean.

I personally think that you have airborne contaminants. Is it dusty in your bottling room?

Try spraying a bit of sulfite/water onto the top of the bucket before bottling.

Thanks for the continuing advice. Have you continued to have no problems since your air has been cleaned up?

 

[hammacks]

Hey Cheeseshark,

How about bottling without the spigot? Actually it would be best without the spigot and wand. I'm sure somebody knows a good way to deal with that. Maybe siphon with a hose clamp inline - may need a helper.

Where do you bottle (you might have mentioned it but I can't remember? Could you clean your kitchen very well with bleach and bottle in there after everything is squeeky clean?

Oh, and blast anything that makes you the tiniest bit nervous with starsan in a spray bottle.

 

[cheeseshark]

Took my last two batches to the LHBS (a very reputable place). The owner tasted them and confirmed that I wasn't just being paranoid, they were infected.

He said that he strongly doubted the possibility of an airborne contaminant. He said that the reason he didn't think it was an airborne contaminant was because he has tasted infected beers like mine before, and if it was a house contaminant, it would be a unique taste.

He said to be more careful of sanitation, which is obviously a standard response (and I am sure simple sanitation is the problem 99% of the time). Like I explained to him, I'm not sure how I could be more careful. He then suggested that I switch from Star San to Iodophor. He admitted that he has never heard of anyone having problems with Star San, but like me he was pretty much out of ideas. He said he had never recommended switching sanitizers from Star San ever, but again, he was out of ideas. So, I did get some Iodophor.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

The same bacteria that cause souring also float amongst dust. He's not correct. I've neveer heard of a "house" contaminant with a "unique" taste.

 

[cheeseshark]

The same bacteria that casue souring also float amongst dust. He's not quite correct.

Maybe I'm just being crazy, or maybe not, but I think I'm developing indoor allergies, too. When I'm in the house, I'm all stuffed up, itchy eyes, etc. An hour or so after leaving the house, I feel fine. So, that could lend credence to the airborne contaminants. I bought a nice furnace filter today, and was just looking at air cleaners on amazon.

 

[Catt22]

While bacteria can't fly or crawl, they can hitch a ride on dust particles so there is always a chance that an infection can be airborne. Wild yeast and other fungi float around in the air too.

Dust from a grain mill has already been mentioned, but simply handling the grain weighing it out and such will kick up some dust. I try to bottle in an area separate from the malt in any form and even then I always try to minimize wort exposure as much as possible. I haven't had any infection problems and I dread the day it happens. I would declare all out war on all fronts.

 

[slimer]

Maybe I'm just being crazy, or maybe not, but I think I'm developing indoor allergies, too. When I'm in the house, I'm all stuffed up, itchy eyes, etc. An hour or so after leaving the house, I feel fine. So, that could lend credence to the airborne contaminants. I bought a nice furnace filter today, and was just looking at air cleaners on amazon.

I've been getting the same way ovr the past few months. I don't know what it is...

 

[Beerthoven]

You never mentioned cleaning or sanitizing your bottle caps. Do you grab them from a big bag that you've had around for a while? I always rinse my caps in oxyclean and give them a starsan soak.

 

[cheeseshark]

You never mentioned cleaning or sanitizing your bottle caps. Do you grab them from a big bag that you've had around for a while? I always rinse my caps in oxyclean and give them a starsan soak.

I sanitize my caps in Star San (although there is apparently quite a bit of controversy about this topic... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/caps-sanitize-not-sanitize-107824/

 

[killian]

Care to elaborate?

I'm not exactly sure what he was saying but what I got out of it was that the flame would lift the dust, contaminant, etc..

I wish I paid closer attention to what he was saying, but the recommendation to use a burner like that in the house just through me for a loop. Sorry for the incomplete info, if I run into him again I will see what he has to say.

 

[Catt22]

What method are you using to chill the beer? A CFC could be a source of contamination. Seems we've hit on about every other possibility.

 

[cheeseshark]

What method are you using to chill the beer? A CFC could be a source of contamination. Seems we've hit on about every other possibility.

Good thought, but I just use a basic copper immersion chiller.

 

[HOW]

I too have had a persistent infection problem. I spoiled batch after batch (probably 8).

I tossed buckets, hose and siphons. I switched from diversol to OxiClean and StarSan.
I soaked equipment in bleach then metabisulphite, I changed rooms and sprayed hands, counters and all surfaces with StarSan and STILL had infections.

My solutions (I have had two successful batches):
1. Didn’t use distilled water for the StarSan. The priming bucket was sprayed down with this StarSan and then sealed and stored. The PH probably rose above 3.5;
2. I was fermenting in my furnace room – the forced air furnace had a dirty filter;
3. I fermented in a storage room – I spilled a couple of litres of wine which may have left some residual nasties in the air;
4. My tap water MAY not be clean enough so I switched to filtered water for brewing;
5. I bought a keg system (no bottles). I’m certain I wasn’t as clean as I should have been with bottle washing and storage. I don’t think a soak in Oxi then storing with StarSan inside was clean/sanitized enough. In most batches I didn’t use distilled water and the StarSan probably rose above 3.5PH;

I almost gave up. I’d suggest tossing all equipment. The only thing I kept was my carboys as I was ‘sure’ (IOW too cheap to throw them out) that they weren’t the problem.

 

[Clayton]

why are you old timers holding back the goods??
dude all you have to do is pee on it.
Yeah, Oh Yeah ,, Pee just do it in a bucket and wash your stuff with it
contamanations say bye bye.
case closed.


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/first-time-no-sanitizer-peed-14423/

 

[Snafu]

ewwwwwwww

 

[cheeseshark]

I too have had a persistent infection problem. I spoiled batch after batch (probably 8).

I tossed buckets, hose and siphons. I switched from diversol to OxiClean and StarSan.
I soaked equipment in bleach then metabisulphite, I changed rooms and sprayed hands, counters and all surfaces with StarSan and STILL had infections.

My solutions (I have had two successful batches):
1. Didn’t use distilled water for the StarSan. The priming bucket was sprayed down with this StarSan and then sealed and stored. The PH probably rose above 3.5;
2. I was fermenting in my furnace room – the forced air furnace had a dirty filter;
3. I fermented in a storage room – I spilled a couple of litres of wine which may have left some residual nasties in the air;
4. My tap water MAY not be clean enough so I switched to filtered water for brewing;
5. I bought a keg system (no bottles). I’m certain I wasn’t as clean as I should have been with bottle washing and storage. I don’t think a soak in Oxi then storing with StarSan inside was clean/sanitized enough. In most batches I didn’t use distilled water and the StarSan probably rose above 3.5PH;

I almost gave up. I’d suggest tossing all equipment. The only thing I kept was my carboys as I was ‘sure’ (IOW too cheap to throw them out) that they weren’t the problem.

Cool, that is helpful. I am pretty much down to my carboys as the only thing I have not replaced (bench capper is the same too - although I sprayed that with bleach just because). I can't say I have ever tested the ph of my Star San, and I do use tap water, although I don't keep my star san sitting around, I just use it right away.

I have a couple weeks to think about all this, my next few weeks of days off are otherwise occupied, not allowing for any brewing.

 

[KevinP]

No, I don't mill grain near my fermenters.

Primary to bottling procedure:
-Move primary (airlock still attached) from basement to kitchen counter. Let sit about an hour (I usually wrap a clean towel around it to keep sun out).
-Put autosiphon, spigot (which was brand new this time - but I put the spigot, washers, and nut in the sanitizer bucket separately), and tubing in sanitizer bucket full of Star San. Run sanitizer through autosiphon, tubing, and spigot.
-Let that sit for 2 minutes.
-Dump some of sanitizer in bottling bucket, shake it around (obviously it spills out since there is a hole in bucket for spigot).
-Attach spigot. Dump most of sanitizer in bottlling bucket (leaving autosiphon and tubing in sanitizing bucket with some sanitizer). Let sit for about 5 minutes. Drain some sanitizer through spigot. Close spigot. Dump out rest of sanitizer.
-Take airlock out of fermenter. Put autosiphon in fermenter. Attach tubing. Put tubing in bottling bucket. This last time I then put sanitized plastic wrap on the top of the bottling bucket, taking care to cover it completely. Before that, I used a lid (both ways, yielding infected beer)
-Dump in sugar / water which was boiled for five minutes.
-Start autosiphon.
-While that is going, sanitize clean bottles in star san for 2 minutes per batch. Caps are also sanitized in star san for 2 minutes. Bottling wand also goes in there, taken apart.
-Spray spigot with spray bottle of star san. Attach tubing and bottling wand to spigot. Fill bottles. I place caps on bottles as I go along, then actually cap them after they are all filled.

After you move your fermenter up from you basement, do you sanitize the outside of it before you open it? Maybe something is landing on it and getting dropped into the beer when you remove the airlock?

I hope you figure out what is causing this and not have the problem just mysteriously go away.

 

[cheeseshark]

This thread again.... So, if anybody remembers this thread, here it is again. Here's a reader's digest version: Bad batch after bad batch. Replaced all plastic. Bleached glass. Beer still went sour (fine in carboys, tastes sour after a few weeks in bottles).

After listening to everyone's suggestions, I decided to go on a hiatus, because I just couldn't bear the thought of wasting more time and money and then having sour beer.

I have a couple updates. Someone at the LHBS asked about my wort chiller. It is your basic copper immersion chiller. I looked at it, and it was a bit funky looking, but I do boil it for 15 minutes at every batch. I threw it away anyway.

Anyway, here is the main update. Several people suggested the maybe I have a house yeast... Well, we are moving, so I have a strong itch to brew after my 4 month hiatus.

So, here's the thing. Should I risk bringing along my equipment? Here's an abbreviated list:
-5 glass carboys
-1 ale pail given to my by a friend, never used in an infected batch
-Plastic hoses, airlocks, bungs, bottling wand, bottle tree, etc. - all recently replaced, but used in the last two infected batches
-Bench capper
-3 kettles (one 3 gallon SS - no fittings, one 6 gallon aluminum - no fittings, one morebeer heavy duty 10 gallon ss with screw in thermometer and ball valve)
-lots of bottles
-Starsan, pbw, oxyclean
-Caps
-Mash tun with ball valve / false bottom

So, that's my dilemma. What to keep?

 

[Catt22]

I doubt that anyone wants to advise keeping anything at all, including the glass carboys. I'm kinda of the same opinion. If the infection was that persistent, it must be some kind of spore generating bacteria. Spores can withstand some really brutal environments. I would advise getting rid of anything that came into conatact with the wort including the glass carboys and kegs. This is obviously a last resort option. I would first try everything else possible and then I would run many test batches, but it sounds like you have already done that.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

This thread again.... So, if anybody remembers this thread, here it is again. Here's a reader's digest version: Bad batch after bad batch. Replaced all plastic. Bleached glass. Beer still went sour (fine in carboys, tastes sour after a few weeks in bottles).

After listening to everyone's suggestions, I decided to go on a hiatus, because I just couldn't bear the thought of wasting more time and money and then having sour beer.

I have a couple updates. Someone at the LHBS asked about my wort chiller. It is your basic copper immersion chiller. I looked at it, and it was a bit funky looking, but I do boil it for 15 minutes at every batch. I threw it away anyway.

Anyway, here is the main update. Several people suggested the maybe I have a house yeast... Well, we are moving, so I have a strong itch to brew after my 4 month hiatus.

So, here's the thing. Should I risk bringing along my equipment? Here's an abbreviated list:
-5 glass carboys
-1 ale pail given to my by a friend, never used in an infected batch
-Plastic hoses, airlocks, bungs, bottling wand, bottle tree, etc. - all recently replaced, but used in the last two infected batches
-Bench capper
-3 kettles (one 3 gallon SS - no fittings, one 6 gallon aluminum - no fittings, one morebeer heavy duty 10 gallon ss with screw in thermometer and ball valve)
-lots of bottles
-Starsan, pbw, oxyclean
-Caps
-Mash tun with ball valve / false bottom

So, that's my dilemma. What to keep?

-Bench capper
-3 kettles (one 3 gallon SS - no fittings, one 6 gallon aluminum - no fittings, one morebeer heavy duty 10 gallon ss with screw in thermometer and ball valve)
-lots of bottles
-Starsan, pbw, oxyclean
-Caps
-Mash tun with ball valve / false bottom


I'd keep at least this part of your equip. Maybe trash the bottles, but I'd bet they're not the source of any infection. Good luck and happy brewing

 

[shek]

Can't the bottles be sterilized by putting them in an oven? This isn't the Andromeda Strain is it?

 

[Catt22]

Can't the bottles be sterilized by putting them in an oven? This isn't the Andromeda Strain is it?

Maybe not the Andromeda strain or the Ebola virus, but if it is one of the spore type bacteria it would take something like an autoclave to sterilize the equipment. Even full strength bleach won't kill the spores. I think if I had an infection problem like that, I would send some of the infected beer to a lab for analysis and find out what exactly the bad bug is. Then I would formulate a plan to be rid of it and do whatever it takes to make it happen. Replacing all that equipment is something no one wants to hear, but there may be no other option. Doing it part way and only getting rid of some equipment may work, but it's risky and if it doesn't get rid of the problem, you may have to get rid of the new equipment too. I think I would declare all out war on the bug first with PBW, lots of bleach, Star San and Iodophor. I'd boil the hell out of everything I could fit in the kettle and use boiling water on everything else. I would get replace all the most common suspects like hoses and fittings. Plastic buckets would go too. I would probably retain the kegs and glass carboys. Those are too costly to throw away except as a very last resort IMO. I sure hope this never happens to me. So far, so good.

 

[Stef1966]

Just move up to Canada... too cold up here for any bacterias to survive...

 

[Catt22]

Just move up to Canada... too cold up here for any bacterias to survive...

Where, exactly, is this Canada that you speak of?

Some scientists think that spores could survive traveling through space. They tend to persist even in the most inhospitable places. They pretty much have the survival thing perfected.

 

[Stef1966]

Where, exactly, is this Canada that you speak of?

Some scientists think that spores could survive traveling through space. They tend to persist even in the most inhospitable places. They pretty much have the survival thing perfected.

Indeed... I guess i just have been pretty lucky so far, I only use a bleach based soap to clean/sanitize my stuff and i will cross my fingers but after a bit more than 2 years of brewing, never had the misfortune of catching an infection in any batch of beer i brewed.

 

[shek]

Where, exactly, is this Canada that you speak of?

Some scientists think that spores could survive traveling through space. They tend to persist even in the most inhospitable places. They pretty much have the survival thing perfected.

Lots of people have trouble finding Canada, what with it all tucked away down there....

 

[Stef1966]

Lots of people have trouble finding Canada.

Thats a good thing, I do enjoy the calm and open spaces of my country, plus it's not overcrowded and filled with a huge crime rate and economic disaster like some other countries i wont mention here...