Off flavors from...Star San?

[PistolaPete]

I know, I know you are all going to say that you can't taste Star San and not to fear the foam. And I believe it, since I have used it many times with no issues and even put some in plain water to taste it by itself (it's only a little tart) Well a buddy and I are trying to figure this off flavor out, it's happened to him almost every batch and me once and I also tasted this "flavor" in another friend's brew as well...

I'm not sure how to describe this off flavor, it is almost medicinal or vinyl-like (maybe metal like?) and very noticeable on the finish and when you burp, it really comes back out again, it doesn't taste sour or funky like I would think an infection would.

The weird thing is the beer tastes good, if not great, before bottling and this flavor doesn't show up until after waiting for a few weeks to carb up. That's why I think it is from the Star San (which we both use). I always use the same bottled spring water for priming, which is the same I use for brewing, so it's not that. Corn sugar is always used for priming. I pay very close attention to making sure EVERYTHING is sanitized and I put the bottles back into my chest freezer to carb at 68F.

Two possible user errors:
1) It is possible we made the dosage a little too strong, but not like double strength or anything. (I've noticed a strong dosage makes equipment have a slimy feel, but there is still some slimy feeling even when I pay close attention to the dosage although it is not as slimy as a stronger dose.)

2)Sometimes the bottles are still wet w/ sanitizer and I think not letting them dry enough might be an issue (the directions do say to let equipment dry). I have a theory that some wet sanitizer in a fermenter or bottling bucket is not a big deal since there is a lot of beer to dilute it further, but think about how much wet Star San can stick to the walls of a bottle in ratio to only 12 oz of beer and then add the sanitizer that was already in the beer from sanitizing your siphon, caps and bottling bucket as well.

It is possible that a combination of too strong of a dose and not letting the bottles fully drip dry enough can cause this.

I am just wondering if anyone has also run into this where the beer is great up until bottling and then gets a similar medicine/vinyl aftertaste.

 

[Captain Damage]

Medicinal off flavors are usually associated with chlorine. Are you using unfiltered tap water?

 

[tmoney645]

I have never let my bottles dry before filling them up. I sanitize, and just before filling I dump what little starsan has accumulated at the bottom of the bottle. I have never noticed the off flavor you are describing.

 

[AMonkey]

I highly doubt it is the star-san. Most people fill wet bottles with no issues. My first batch I doubled the star-san, only 2.5 gallons of water but forgot to half the star-san. I had no off flavors.

 

[Golddiggie]

"Medicinal:
These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors."

Very likely the water is your source of the issue. If tap water, get filtered (Poland Springs would be a good first try) water for the next batch (or several).

Get a water report if you can. If the town supplies one that lists everything in it. Or send off a sample to a lab for a report. Chances are it will come back high in the compounds that lead to the flavor.

 

[PistolaPete]

Medicinal off flavors are usually associated with chlorine. Are you using unfiltered tap water?

Nope, I stated that I always use the same bottled spring water for 10 years, never had a problem. I noticed some other posts about a metal taste and the beer tasting good before bottling/kegging and using star san seem to be common but then everyone starts asking about water source and kettle type. I've used the same kettle for ten years, no issues before. My friend who has the problem often uses a Brewer's Best kettle so we don't think it's the kettles and that's the only metal used in the process. And again: the beer is fine until it's bottled so it is happening then, not before.

 

[Golddiggie]

Nope, I stated that I always use the same bottled spring water for 10 years, never had a problem. I noticed some other posts about a metal taste and the beer tasting good before bottling/kegging and using star san seem to be common but then everyone starts asking about water source and kettle type. I've used the same kettle also for ten years, not issues before. My friend who has the problem often uses a Brewer's Best kettle so we don't think it's the kettles and that's the only metal used in the process. Again: the beer is fine until it's bottled so it is happening then, not before.

WHAT bottled water are you using?? Could be, if it's a local brand, that they changed something and now you're getting the compounds that create the flavors. Send off a sample to a lab to see what's in it.

 

[AMonkey]

Is there any eqiupment that you share? Hoses? Bottling bucket?

 

[duboman]

IT's not the Star San. Start San is no rinse and aside from letting the solution drip out there is nothing more that needs to be done. In fact, once the product has completely dried it loses its efficacy. It is supposed to be wet and there is no fear of the foam!

As already stated medicinal/plasticy off flavors are associated with chlorine or chloramines either from the water source or cleaning products containing bleach. If the flavors only become present after bottling then something in the bottling process is introducing them. hoses, bottle wand, bucket, spigot, racking cane or autosiphon, the bottles or the caps. Metallic can be from unconditioned aluminum kettles, brass components or water sources as well.

 

[Golddiggie]

What are you using to clean your bottling setup?.

 

[PistolaPete]

Is there any eqiupment that you share? Hoses? Bottling bucket?

No we don't share equipment.

 

[PistolaPete]

What are you using to clean your bottling setup?.

I rinse the bottles w/ tap water as soon as I pour from them and let them drip dry upside down. Then they are sanitized before bottling again. All other equipment from bottling is immediately rinsed and cleaned with tap water and a wet soft cotton rag and then wiped down with a dry soft cotton towel to avoid any tap water drying on them, very little if any tap water is left on the equipment. I do use tap water to mix my sanitizer solutions so this is the only tap water introduced to the bottling process.

 

[Golddiggie]

I rinse the bottles w/ tap water as soon as I pour from them and let them drip dry upside down. Then they are sanitized before bottling again. All other equipment from bottling is immediately rinsed and cleaned with tap water and a wet soft cotton rag and then wiped down with a dry soft cotton towel to avoid any tap water drying on them, very little if any tap water is left on the equipment. I do use tap water to mix my sanitizer solutions so this is the only tap water introduced to the bottling process.

Stop using straight tap water in the Star San. You're getting chlorine compounds in that way. Either filter the water at home, boil it, or treat it with campden tablet(s) (there's a thread for that).

Sounds like your tap water is really high in chlorine (especially for brewing) compounds. I'm sensitive to such things, which is why I cook, drink, and brew with water that's run through a really good filter system (down to .2 micron). I'll wash with tap water, without issue. But my tap water is also low in chlorine compounds. Some area brewers use it from the tap, without filtering, with good results. I just prefer to filter mine. My cost per gallon of water is so low, it's almost funny (compared with store bought water).

 

[J343MY]

It sounds like you are describing a phenolic flavour. A few times the exact same thing happened to me. Beer tasted fine pre bottling, and had a phenolic flavour after.

I never figured out exactly why this happened. But it seemed to be something to do with the yeast, but I'm not sure. What yeast are you using? I have gotten this flavour before with pacman and san diego super yeast. US-05 has never caused me any problems, try with that maybe.

Definitely not starsan though

 

[zmanzorro]

What temperature are you fermenting at? I've had a few batches taste plastic-y and I'm pretty sure that I've narrowed it down to the fact that the room I let them ferment in was too warm.

 

[PistolaPete]

It sounds like you are describing a phenolic flavour. A few times the exact same thing happened to me. Beer tasted fine pre bottling, and had a phenolic flavour after.

I never figured out exactly why this happened. But it seemed to be something to do with the yeast, but I'm not sure. What yeast are you using? I have gotten this flavour before with pacman and san diego super yeast. US-05 has never caused me any problems, try with that maybe.

Definitely not starsan though

It's happened with a few different yeasts so I don't think that's it.

 

[PistolaPete]

What temperature are you fermenting at? I've had a few batches taste plastic-y and I'm pretty sure that I've narrowed it down to the fact that the room I let them ferment in was too warm.

My temps are set between 66-68 in a chest freezer w/ thermostat. Seems to be great for all my other brews.

 

[PistolaPete]

Stop using straight tap water in the Star San. You're getting chlorine compounds in that way. Either filter the water at home, boil it, or treat it with campden tablet(s) (there's a thread for that).

Sounds like your tap water is really high in chlorine (especially for brewing) compounds. I'm sensitive to such things, which is why I cook, drink, and brew with water that's run through a really good filter system (down to .2 micron). I'll wash with tap water, without issue. But my tap water is also low in chlorine compounds. Some area brewers use it from the tap, without filtering, with good results. I just prefer to filter mine. My cost per gallon of water is so low, it's almost funny (compared with store bought water).

I will use RO water for my sanitizers from now on and see how that does. It's weird it's only happened once to me and only after bottling but it cant hurt to try. Thanks for the input!

 

[Golddiggie]

I will use RO water for my sanitizers from now on and see how that does. It's weird it's only happened once to me and only after bottling but it cant hurt to try. Thanks for the input!

When I was living in FL, I noticed that the tap water would change in how much it smelled of chlorine, from time to time. IF I recall, it was often worse in the warmer times of the year (which was too much of the year for me). We always ran our drinking/cooking water through a RO system too. Couldn't stand to drink the stuff. Even used the RO water to brush our teeth (I use my filtered water for that too)...

SO glad I'm not in FL anymore... :rockin:

 

[notjustgc]

I will use RO water for my sanitizers from now on and see how that does. It's weird it's only happened once to me and only after bottling but it cant hurt to try. Thanks for the input!

I'm very curious to see if this fixed it for you. I had EXACTLY the same issue you described (especially with this strange phenolic flavor manifesting in burps). Even in kegged batches, it was a problem. Finally pinned it on the use of tap water for my sanitizer solution and started using campden tabs in the star-san water as well as the brewing water. Brewed my first batch since making the correction just yesterday.

So I'll know for myself in a few weeks whether it worked or not - but in the meantime, have you had success using RO water in your star-san solution?

 

[PistolaPete]

@ notjusgc: Iam trying to remember the order of things happening but I know I've had two batches that have gone bad and I "think" I did use RO water for my sanitizing solution for the 2nd bad batch and it still showed up. After reading as much as I could on the subject and talking to various people about the issue I now believe the off flavor might have been some type of an infection that shows up only in the bottling phase. After talking to someone at White labs about their bacteria/wild yeasts tests they sell, they mentioned wild yeasts can put off phenolic types flavors since wild yeast can still beak down certain compounds "good" yeast cannot. Phenolics can also show up from chlorine, but I do not think this was the case. I believe my problem was due to wild yeast picked up in my bottling equipment or more likely, it was airborne. I now make sure to try and keep my bottling bucket and fermenter as closed as possible while siphoning, limit all air flow currents while bottling, and I even set lit candles around the work area to create an updraft from the heat of the flames. (I picked up this last tip from the "making yeast slants" sticky on here.) I've not had any problems since and will keep you posted if anything shows up again.

 

[Gavagai]

I agree with the infection diagnosis. I had a similar problem, and after I left the bottles around for a few months I got gushers.

 

[MNDan]

An added benefit of using RO water to make up your StarSan is that you can keep it around and use it forever! I've been using the same corny keg full of StarSan for years...

 

[Puddlethumper]

I was glad to log on tonite and find this thread. I've been battling a bad flavor/smell creeping into my beer for the last 7 batches. I'm getting pretty sick of doing all that work and spending the bucks on the materials only to end up dumping it down the sink because I can't drink the stuff.

I've taken careful notes of my processes and I think I have it narrowed down to a chlorine issue. I have made numerous kinds of beers with various yeasts. Fermentation temps may have been a tad higher than optimum but at 68-70 should turn out a drinkable beer. My first three batches I used either store-bought spring water or tap water (that came through a charcoal filter). These beers were excellent and they are why I'm still hammering away at this. About Christmas time I bought an aluminum brew kettle and propane burner so I could start brewing on my back patio. That meant pulling city water from a hose bibb that didn't have a filter in line. I didn't start noticing the problem with the beer until late January when bottling the first of the year brews. Virtually every batch since has been bad.

The recurring pattern has been like those who have posted earlier. The beer tastes and smells great coming out of the kettle. Even after a week or so in primary it still smells and tastes good when moving to secondary. At bottling time it is picking up a hint of the plastic/bandaid smell. After a couple weeks in the bottle it has become undrinkable.

The lhbs proprietor tasted the beer and pronounced an infection. I've spent a ton of bucks and time on new equipment, PBW, StarSan, you name it. After chasing my tail trying to fix an "infection problem" I'm still getting bad beer. Have come to the conclusion that it is either my water or the aluminum brew kettle. I can get well water and have done so for the last two batches (results to be announced). A new stainless brew kettle is due to arrive tomorrow.

to be continued .....

(Any comments would be appreciated)

 

[notjustgc]

For me at least, the issue was not an infection. I've noticed the issue in my beers previously, but I realized after going back through my notes that it's only happened during certain (cold weather) times of year. I've never done any kind of filtration or treatment on the tap water before using it to brew. Checking with the water commission, I discovered that chloramine is cycled in and out seasonally.

I've detected it in burps in a few past batches, but nearly all other batches have been fine. This one was using 3068 yeast, a strain noted for its high level of phenol production. I think it was suddenly WAY worse in this batch primarily because the yeast was so much more effective at converting the chloramine into chlorophenol than most other strains, AND I happened to be brewing it in the winter (chloramine season, when I'm usually not brewing much light/hoppy stuff). So I think it was this confluence of factors that really held a magnifying glass to this particular defect and made it impossible to miss (especially during primary, when the bulk of these phenolic compounds were being produced and belched out through the blowoff hose).

My first campden-ized batch is in secondary now - and tastes/smells quite flawless. The true test will be another batch fermented with 3068.

 

[Ogri]

I've been battling a bad flavor/smell creeping into my beer for the last 7 batches. ................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................



..............................I'm still getting bad beer. Have come to the conclusion that it is either my water or the aluminum brew kettle. I can get well water and have done so for the last two batches (results to be announced). A new stainless brew kettle is due to arrive tomorrow.

to be continued .....

(Any comments would be appreciated)

Campden tabs are a very cheap commodity and will make it easy to rectify the problem if it is chloramine in your water.
Not sure that replacing an aluminium kettle with a stainless will make any difference.

 

[Puddlethumper]

Campden tabs are a very cheap commodity and will make it easy to rectify the problem if it is chloramine in your water.
Not sure that replacing an aluminium kettle with a stainless will make any difference.

Just opened the first beer from the batch I made with the well water (non-public utiltiy water). The beer was outstanding!

I spoke to a water engineer at the public utilities department a couple days after I last posted to this thread. He said there was a very high liklihood of choramines in the city water beginning just about the end of last year. It was related to a heavy loading of organic material in the water that would react to the chlorine the city adds and form chloramines. It was the first time the city had had that problem and it was related to some water they were receiving from one of the local reservoirs.

So the upshot of all this is that our well water is fine. And I needed to replace the aluminum kettle anyway because it was just too small. It might see service as a hot liquor tank sometime down the road.

 

[petenadolski2112]

I know, I know you are all going to say that you can't taste Star San and not to fear the foam. And I believe it, since I have used it many times with no issues and even put some in plain water to taste it by itself (it's only a little tart) Well a buddy and I are trying to figure this off flavor out, it's happened to him almost every batch and me once and I also tasted this "flavor" in another friend's brew as well...

I'm not sure how to describe this off flavor, it is almost medicinal or vinyl-like (maybe metal like?) and very noticeable on the finish and when you burp, it really comes back out again, it doesn't taste sour or funky like I would think an infection would.

The weird thing is the beer tastes good, if not great, before bottling and this flavor doesn't show up until after waiting for a few weeks to carb up. That's why I think it is from the Star San (which we both use). I always use the same bottled spring water for priming, which is the same I use for brewing, so it's not that. Corn sugar is always used for priming. I pay very close attention to making sure EVERYTHING is sanitized and I put the bottles back into my chest freezer to carb at 68F.

Two possible user errors:
1) It is possible we made the dosage a little too strong, but not like double strength or anything. (I've noticed a strong dosage makes equipment have a slimy feel, but there is still some slimy feeling even when I pay close attention to the dosage although it is not as slimy as a stronger dose.)

2)Sometimes the bottles are still wet w/ sanitizer and I think not letting them dry enough might be an issue (the directions do say to let equipment dry). I have a theory that some wet sanitizer in a fermenter or bottling bucket is not a big deal since there is a lot of beer to dilute it further, but think about how much wet Star San can stick to the walls of a bottle in ratio to only 12 oz of beer and then add the sanitizer that was already in the beer from sanitizing your siphon, caps and bottling bucket as well.

It is possible that a combination of too strong of a dose and not letting the bottles fully drip dry enough can cause this.

I am just wondering if anyone has also run into this where the beer is great up until bottling and then gets a similar medicine/vinyl aftertaste.

I am resurrecting a 10+ year old post, so I am so sorry to do that. I’ve been home brewing for about 9 years, and ever since I started using Star San, something was off in every beer I brewed…Some strange flavor I could not pinpoint, but the vinyl/metallic description is pretty accurate. I used star San for about 20 batches, then this month I switched to One Step. Before, I always noticed my beers tasting delicious before kegging, then after kegging, the off flavor appeared.

I always read that the foam was fine, which it probably is for most people. But after using One Step throughout the entire brewing/packaging stages of a Belgian Dubbel I brewed, it tastes delicious out of the keg with none of those strange flavors described earlier. I am extremely sanitary with my processes, and have never had a contaminated batch, just fyi. I truly believe that Star San has been the culprit all of these years, and never questioned it until my recent experiment. I thought I was crazy.

 

[day_trippr]

Welcome to the forums at Homebrew Talk, @petenadolski2112

It is totally acceptable to add on to an on-topic thread, regardless of its age. Indeed, I like seeing someone take the time to find an appropriate thread to append their contribution, so kudos for that

fwiw, I used One Step many times roughly 20 years ago and for a couple of years of brewing and had no issues with it. But I've been using Star San since roughly 2004 and don't think I've ever actually noticed any character contribution from it in my beers. But we are not all given the exact same set of sensory related chromosomes, and there are plenty of examples of characters in beer that some folks are oblivious to while to others they are reason to dump a pour - or even a batch.

So...go forth with the One Step and enjoy your "new and improved" brews!

Cheers!

 

[Chorgey]

I am resurrecting a 10+ year old post, so I am so sorry to do that. I’ve been home brewing for about 9 years, and ever since I started using Star San, something was off in every beer I brewed…Some strange flavor I could not pinpoint, but the vinyl/metallic description is pretty accurate. I used star San for about 20 batches, then this month I switched to One Step. Before, I always noticed my beers tasting delicious before kegging, then after kegging, the off flavor appeared.

I always read that the foam was fine, which it probably is for most people. But after using One Step throughout the entire brewing/packaging stages of a Belgian Dubbel I brewed, it tastes delicious out of the keg with none of those strange flavors described earlier. I am extremely sanitary with my processes, and have never had a contaminated batch, just fyi. I truly believe that Star San has been the culprit all of these years, and never questioned it until my recent experiment. I thought I was crazy.

I never could figure out why someone would get upset for resurrecting an old thread. It never bothered me and if the information is still good, then why complain?

When I first got into homebrewing, my first setup was from Northern Brewer and it came with One Step. I used it as a cleaner and sanitizer, never had an infection. Then I went on to StarSan and Saniclean. Still, no infections.

@petenadolski2112 you have peaked my interest and I just might give One Step another shot, since I never had a problem with it in the first place.

From the Northern Brewer website.... "Note: while technically a cleanser, One Step does have some sanitizing properties through the release of hydrogen peroxide. It can be used in no-rinse applications in most home brewing tasks."