Off Flavor present in all batches. All variables changed

[BrewNate]

Hey guys, thanks for taking the time to read this and providing you assistance. As the title states I am having trouble with an off flavor. This off flavor is hard to identify, even for seasoned brewers as I have let them sample some.

First: I started brewing with a one gallon extract kit. I now have a (5g system) HLT, Mash tun, Conical Fermenter, Immersion Chiller, and tons of other equipment. This all came about not only because I like brewing beer but also in an effort to eliminate the off flavor in my beer.

Also worthy of note. I feel that in troubleshooting this flavor, my sanitation practices are beyond reproach. I clean and disinfect my entire work surface. Layout paper towels for cleaned tools. I use StarSan (have also tried Iodine!) for sanitation. I also boil applicable tools. More is done but you get the drift.

Typically, I create a yeast starter. This includes yeast nutrient, DME, and yeast needed for the ale (have yet to do a lager).

I then heat my strike water to the appropriate temp (calculations backed up by BeerSmith). I mash in and normally have a mash temp of 148-155F. 60 min hold, all of course depending on what is required. Then Iodine test. Vorlauf till (mostly) clear and runoff and sparge with HLT water (170-190F). No mash out....not enough room.

Then I boil, follow my hop schedule, chill (with chiller that was boiled in the wort so it is clean aside from being cleaned manually), whirlpool, and move to fermenter quickly.

Now....I have both waited a few hours before pitching yeast (to dump trub) and pitched immediately...both @ 65-70F.

Working from home allows me to monitor the temp via my internal thermostat in the thermowell. It is constantly between 65-70F....although it does bounce around when fermentation is most active.

I harvest the yeast after about a week, depending on fermentation activity, and then either rack to secondary carboy (to free up the conical) or leave in the conical for 1-3 more weeks, depending on the ale. After I add (boiled) priming sugar and bottle. Again using extremely careful sanitation practices.

Bottle condition for no less than 2 weeks.

I have started using spring water (tried different types)
Went from extract to partial mash to all grain
Starting using yeast starters
Started the immersion chiller and stopped exclusively using ice baths.
Started using spring water (different types)
Became critical of fermentation temperature
Critical attention when aerating wort.
Started using a stir plate.
Take critically accurate hydrometer readings.
Keep a moment by moment brew journal (detailing EVERYTHING!) from yeast starter to cracking the first bottle.
Calculate carefully in beersmith to check my math
Minimize exposure to O2
and MORE MORE MORE!

The PH is about right and I use a PH calc to help with recommendations on how to optimize PH in the mash. (I see first time extract brewers making great beers without even worrying about this and using tap water.) I feel like I am having to pay critical attention (which I find fun) to everything just in hopes of producing a mediocre beer! But everyone else is making good beer from LME with much less effort. I have even come across YouTube videos of some people brewing in a garage and after looking at the environment and equipment, I am shocked that the end result is even beer rather then festering sludge.

There is so much more I could say. But I will end with this. This flavor (or maybe me just not liking my own beer, others have liked it and many not detected a flavor) has been persistent since my first 1G extract batch and as I added every piece of equipment and every change of process. It is still present today. Sometimes worse than others.

The "off smell" is like you are fermenting in a carboy with a rubber bung. Remove the bung, sniff the beer. What do you smell? Not beer....bung! That is what my beer smells like. But the conical doesn't use a bung...

The flavor....hard to describe. I have researched off flavors and their causes and nothing fits perfect. Maybe liquid band-aid? But not really.

Anyone want me to send them a beer?

At this point my frustration is at an all time high. I'm okay with trying something new or creative and making a beer that isn't that good. That's par for the course. This this is not that. Aside from having a "mast homebrewer" brew with me....I do not know where to go. I love brewing, but if that means pissing my money and time down the drain...I'd rather stop and reclaim both.

Let me know if I can answer any more Qs. I would be happy to if it helps you help me.

Thanks Guys.
BN

 

[BrewNate]

Also working on clarity (not filtering so it won't be perfect) and head retention. But when the beer sucks who cares?

Not doing anything "fancy" here. Just run of the mill recipes (amber ale, blond, IPA) until I can get my chops...

 

[ong]

Is this using an assortment of different yeasts, or are you just using a single strain? Are the hops all from one provider, and do you have some faith in their freshness?

If it were me I would try a very basic, low cost experiment -- brew a one gallon batch, just extract, spring or tap water, and a single hop (maybe a 60 minute and a 15 minute charge), and a fresh commercial pitch of a neutral yeast (WLP 090 or something). Ferment coolish in a glass jug covered with foil (to avoid the dreaded bung). Try this after 2 weeks, just uncarbed, and see if you get your off flavor.

 

[Beernik]

My questions:
1) Are you placing sanitized equipment on paper towels? Because I'm guessing the paper towels aren't sanitized. I sanitize a bucket and keep all my sanitized equipment in the bucket until I use it. After its used, it goes into another bucket to be cleaned.
2) I ask all bottling brewers this because I once had it happen to me: are you sure your bottles are clean? Pour a bottle, rinse it out, and hold it up to the light. If it isn't visibly clean, toss it.
3) What are you using to clean/sanitize?

 

[BrewNate]

Different strains depending on the batch. Tried both dry and liquid. Also cultured some from Bell Brewery (Oberon). Not sure if yeast is the culprit. Hops vary. Tried leaf and pellet to address the issue, but primarily use pellet. Freshness I assume is okay, smells fine, comes out of the fridge, and all from brand name vendors like Hop Union.

I may have to try that experiment. Although that is pretty much what a 1g extract batch is. My problems persisted with those too.

Is this using an assortment of different yeasts, or are you just using a single strain? Are the hops all from one provider, and do you have some faith in their freshness?

If it were me I would try a very basic, low cost experiment -- brew a one gallon batch, just extract, spring or tap water, and a single hop (maybe a 60 minute and a 15 minute charge), and a fresh commercial pitch of a neutral yeast (WLP 090 or something). Ferment coolish in a glass jug covered with foil (to avoid the dreaded bung). Try this after 2 weeks, just uncarbed, and see if you get your off flavor.

 

[BrewNate]

1) To clarify, I do have a sanitizing bucket. In on over abundance of caution I create a new 5g batch of sanitizer every time I touch the beer (bottling, racking, brew day, etc.) due to all the issues I have had. I leave most of my instruments in the bucket. However I do remove my hydrometer and glass therm as not to break them. I place those on the towels but also have sanitizer in a spray bottle that helps deal with that.

2) No....I suppose I am assuming they are clean. I have not seen any crud on the insides however. I have both washed in the dishwasher with detergent and then a second pass to rinse (I worry about the detergent) as well as just a plain pass with no detergent. After both the bottles get sanitized. Been wondering if I need to Keg anyway.

3)I have tried both Iodine and StarSan. Clean through an assortment of processes. Manually, Oxyclean Free, and more.

My questions:
1) Are you placing sanitized equipment on paper towels? Because I'm guessing the paper towels aren't sanitized. I sanitize a bucket and keep all my sanitized equipment in the bucket until I use it. After its used, it goes into another bucket to be cleaned.
2) I ask all bottling brewers this because I once had it happen to me: are you sure your bottles are clean? Pour a bottle, rinse it out, and hold it up to the light. If it isn't visibly clean, toss it.
3) What are you using to clean/sanitize?

 

[Yooper]

Two things come out to me. First is the water. Have you tried 100% reverse osmosis water? Generally, you get that at those big "water machines" in grocery stores. Spring water isn't always good- as some springs are like RO water but some are heavy in minerals. If you're having the same off flavor across all batches, the only thing that really makes sense to me is chlorine or something in the water. Make sure your sanitizer is mixed up with chlorine free water!

"Liquid band-aid" describes the taste of chlorine/chloramines in beer perfectly.

The only other thing I can think of goes back to the bottles. I wouldn't use a dishwasher, as I don't see how the water can squirt up inside the bottles to clean them. Handwashing is the only way to go. What I do is stand at the sink and "eyeball" the bottles, up to the light, to see if there is anything in there. Then rinse well (if clean), or wash with oxyclean or something if they aren't and then rinse well. Then sanitize and use. Chlorine in the bottles or on the bottles would be a big problem, so make sure you rinse well from any sort of detergent or soap.

 

[BrewNate]

Yooper! I sure do love the UP! Jealous right now, I am in Tennessee and bet it feels way better up there. Those are my old stomping grounds. To a point.

I have not tried reverse osmosis although I have considered it. I did not proceed in getting a system to do so because I asked myself, "is this REALLY necessary?" I mean, as I have stated, first time homebrewers (which I am a newb myself) have had far more success than I have using extract and tap water. So while it looked interesting, I dismissed and chased down what I felt was more obvious.

I DO make my StarSan with tap water, however I figured so little would be getting in the wort/beer the concern would be minimal. Perhaps I need to make batch to keep? I would hate to think this whole time it has been the sanitizer....

Two things come out to me. First is the water. Have you tried 100% reverse osmosis water? Generally, you get that at those big "water machines" in grocery stores. Spring water isn't always good- as some springs are like RO water but some are heavy in minerals. If you're having the same off flavor across all batches, the only thing that really makes sense to me is chlorine or something in the water. Make sure your sanitizer is mixed up with chlorine free water!

"Liquid band-aid" describes the taste of chlorine/chloramines in beer perfectly.

The only other thing I can think of goes back to the bottles. I wouldn't use a dishwasher, as I don't see how the water can squirt up inside the bottles to clean them. Handwashing is the only way to go. What I do is stand at the sink and "eyeball" the bottles, up to the light, to see if there is anything in there. Then rinse well (if clean), or wash with oxyclean or something if they aren't and then rinse well. Then sanitize and use. Chlorine in the bottles or on the bottles would be a big problem, so make sure you rinse well from any sort of detergent or soap.

 

[Horseflesh]

I agree that water sounds like a possible culprit, though it also sounds like there was a water source change during troubleshooting. And if it's spring water, it shouldn't have chlorine or chloramines. Still, I really like the idea of doing a batch with RO water from the store.

If the problem was chlorine/chloramines I'd be shocked if the amount added from the sanitizer was a factor.

OP do you use campden tablets or any other chlorine treatment?

 

[BrewNate]

Not particularity, although I have been cautious about the chlorine content of the water. I have considered Gypsum, Calc chloride,Epsom, soda, etc for balancing the alkalinity of the water....although the PH is normally pretty close. But in troubleshooting the beer, I didn't want to introduce too many additional steps as I was troubleshooting what I had to begin with.

I may try some RO water. Have a starter going again and will be brewing tonight.

I agree that water sounds like a possible culprit, though it also sounds like there was a water source change during troubleshooting. And if it's spring water, it shouldn't have chlorine or chloramines. Still, I really like the idea of doing a batch with RO water from the store.

If the problem was chlorine/chloramines I'd be shocked if the amount added from the sanitizer was a factor.

OP do you use campden tablets or any other chlorine treatment?

 

[ncbrewer]

I agree that water sounds like a possible culprit, though it also sounds like there was a water source change during troubleshooting. And if it's spring water, it shouldn't have chlorine or chloramines. Still, I really like the idea of doing a batch with RO water from the store.

If the problem was chlorine/chloramines I'd be shocked if the amount added from the sanitizer was a factor.

OP do you use campden tablets or any other chlorine treatment?

I agree if you're getting the off flavor using spring water, chlorine shouldn't be the problem. If you do go back to tap water, be sure to use campden tablets.

If it were me I would try a very basic, low cost experiment -- brew a one gallon batch, just extract, spring or tap water, and a single hop (maybe a 60 minute and a 15 minute charge), and a fresh commercial pitch of a neutral yeast (WLP 090 or something). Ferment coolish in a glass jug covered with foil (to avoid the dreaded bung). Try this after 2 weeks, just uncarbed, and see if you get your off flavor.

Going back to the simplest method (extract, without specialty grains) would be worthwhile, to eliminate many of the possible causes. It could be one gallon of five, depending on your preference. Again, if using tap water, use campden. I'd further simplify by using dry yeast - maybe US-05 or Nottingham. Keep OG to 1.050 or less, and dry pitch the yeast - simple again. Don't open the fermenter for 18 days - then get a gravity sample. Get another sample 3 days later. If gravity is stable (it will be), bottle. Refrigerate after three weeks in bottles, and taste two days later. After you eliminate the problem, you can ease back to your preferred method.

Also, I would keep all the tools in a Star San bath rather than putting any on paper towels - you can use a shallow stainless pan for smaller items.

 

[OswaldvW]

Rubber, burnt rubber, Bakelite flavors can come from a few sources.

Rubbery, Tarry, Plastic flavors can be from yeast production.

I have gotten the burnt rubber as well as a striking match flavor from beers that have a funky fermentation, very sulfury (this is more of a DMS thing). Sometimes aging the beer can give the yeast time to get rid of the sulfur, sometimes not. You may want to take a look at controlling the fermentation temperature more. I know you stated 65-70, but maybe by lowering the temp, the yeast may put off different phenols and esters.

Also, try limiting yourself to one yeast that is not prone to esters or phenolics. Try something fairly neutral like 1056, 1007 or Nottingham fermented at a low temp.

I was having problems with an off-flavor awhile back and did the following:
1.) got rid of/replaced all my plastic siphoning wands and hoses
2.) replaced my bottling bucket
3.) spent some time just PBW and Star-San-ing my equipment without worrying about brewing.
4.) Began baking my bottles and glass carboys in the oven at about 340ºF for 60-90 minutes

I did these steps so that just in the event I had some kind of house strain funkiness that was lurking in my brew area and on my equipment, my sanitation would somehow overcome it. I ended up having positive results (finally!) and recommend this to anyone who is having unknown off-flavors as another thing to cross off the list in the quest to eliminate unwanted flavors.

Good luck!

 

[rodwha]

I, too, have had an issue with an off flavor present in several beers. It's something similar yet is different to a degree as the beers are different. It develops after a couple of weeks. Is this off flavor there from day one?

What I have figured is that it's oxidation from siphoning on bottling day. It doesn't taste like wet cardboard per se but maybe that's what cardboard would taste like if it sat in my beer for some time.

 

[rodwha]

I place my sanitized instruments in the dishwasher until I'm ready for them.

 

[BrewNate]

Not really from day 1, it seems to have to ferment. Tastes like sweet wort before that.

I, too, have had an issue with an off flavor present in several beers. It's something similar yet is different to a degree as the beers are different. It develops after a couple of weeks. Is this off flavor there from day one?

What I have figured is that it's oxidation from siphoning on bottling day. It doesn't taste like wet cardboard per se but maybe that's what cardboard would taste like if it sat in my beer for some time.

 

[rodwha]

I wasn't specific. I meant, after it's been conditioned and carbonated, was it good for a while?

I typically give most beers 3 weeks to ferment followed by 3 weeks to condition (no secondary) and 1 week in the fridge to carbonate properly. Mine would be good for 2-3 weeks or so.

 

[h22lude]

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see anything about aeration. Do you shake the crap out of your carboy/bucket or use pure O2? Not enough O2 can cause off flavors.