Off flavor everytime

[sky4meplease]

Overly bitter I would say. But a very specific bitter that is recognizable.

Ooh sorry we can't help with that one [emoji39]

 

[ButteryJones]

For me personally, I wasn't able to completely get rid of off flavors until I had full fermentation temp control. Not sure if this is what's causing your problem, but it sounds similar to what I dealt with. Always the same weird flavor & the beer was drinkable but not good

 

[Yooper]

So I just grabbed the kit I'm doing next. The date on the LME is 4/19/16.

My first suggestion is to not use ANY LME. Use DME instead.

Are you doing something like Brewer's Best kits, that are already prepackaged?

I would suggest doing a recipe where you can buy DME, some grain (and have it crushed fresh, or do it yourself with a rolling pin), and some hops, and RO water.

Then see if we fixed it.

 

[Braufessor]

I am going back into town today with two more beer styles to talk to the local expert. I will also take the first one he tried. This way he can specifically identify the flavor. I will get a word or two from him to help describe it.

That would help for sure...

Often, high fermentation temps result in "hot" alcohol type flavors, "solvent" type flavors.

Contamination often can be sour, medicinal, Smoke/spice/phenolic, vinegar

Chlorine is usually "bandaid" "plastic" "phenolic flavors"

My guess, as it is presenting in all your batches is that the most likely culprit is infection and/or high fermentation temps. I think you said you used RO/distilled water on some of your batches - that would generally rule out Chlorine.... unless you are using it for sanitizing/cleaning.

Sanitation/cleaning..... I would recommend something like PBW for cleaning, but then make sure you are using Iodophor or Star San for sanitizing.

Make sure you are taking EVERYTHING apart when sanitizing and cleaning.... spigots come apart, bottle fillers come apart.... lots of things come apart that people do not realize. Those things are PERFECT for harboring nasty stuff.

Getting someone experienced to sample and help is definitely the way to go.

 

[UglySister]

I definitely am new and unskilled but I'm also a fanatic. I spend hour reading, books, forums, and magazines. Every time I have the opportunity to talk to experienced brewer I ask questions and listen until I think their tired of talking. I'm constantly doing something. I have a habit of brewing way more than I can drink (not good since I try and drink it all so I can brew more). So yeah, I'm green but I don't just plow straight ahead with no knowledge or efforts to learn. That's partially why this is frustrating.

 

[sky4meplease]

I am going back into town today with two more beer styles to talk to the local expert. I will also take the first one he tried. This way he can specifically identify the flavor. I will get a word or two from him to help describe it.

Sounds good.
I routinely bring beers to the LHBS for feedback. Some of the staff are beer judges and trained for this kind of stuff.

Astringent
Astringency differs from bitterness by having a puckering quality, like sucking on a tea bag. It is dry, kind of powdery and is often the result of steeping grains too long or when the pH of the mash exceeds the range of 5.2 - 5.6. Oversparging the mash or using water that is too hot are common causes for exceeding the mash pH range. It can also be caused by over-hopping during either the bittering or finishing stages. Bacterial infections can also cause astringency, i.e. vinegar tones from aceto bacteria

 

[UglySister]

The best beer I have made was Alesmith IPA. I did the partial mash and added 3 lbs DME and 4 lbs LME. The flavor was still detectable but very slight. If it hadn't been in every other beer I doubt I would have even picked up on it. This leads me to believe it's the LME I don't like. All the other brews were Brewers best kits using only LME.

 

[Konadog]

Have you ever brewed the same beer twice? It's a good way to see if any changes you make are actually doing anything. Jumping around with different styles make it tough to figure out what a problem is. When I first started, I brewed the same beer 7 times, each time changing one thing until I figured out how to make "good" beer. That alone made me improve my technique. Once you get the process down, then move on to other beers with the knowledge you learned.

 

[UglySister]

Sounds good.
I routinely bring beers to the LHBS for feedback. Some of the staff are beer judges and trained for this kind of stuff.

Astringent
Astringency differs from bitterness by having a puckering quality, like sucking on a tea bag. It is dry, kind of powdery and is often the result of steeping grains too long or when the pH of the mash exceeds the range of 5.2 - 5.6. Oversparging the mash or using water that is too hot are common causes for exceeding the mash pH range. It can also be caused by over-hopping during either the bittering or finishing stages. Bacterial infections can also cause astringency, i.e. vinegar tones from aceto bacteria

I addressed the steeping Temps with great attention thinking that was the problem and as far as over hopping, I followed the recipe exactly.

 

[Mainer]

I brew the kits according to directions. I steep at 155°-160°. I keep my boil as low as possible while keeping it rolling. I transfer the kettle to a sink of ice water. I continue to add ice and stir wort until pitching temperature is achieved. (usually takes about 15 minutes. I then add room temperature (70°) water to get 5 gal. I pour it back and forth between two sanitized bottling buckets to ariate it. I then take my OG and pitch yeast. I ferment in primary for 1 week, rack to carboy for additional week, then bottle (or most recently keg now that I've invested in that).

That's a pretty short fermentation time. I've found that all my brews, even my IPAs, taste better after at least six weeks, preferably more like two months. Anything with lager yeast I give at least three months (one in primary, two in secondary or bottle-conditioning). Before that, they tend to have what I can only describe as a sharp, green off-taste. Sometimes a little sulphurous or astringent. Have you tried the simplest fix, just letting your brews age longer?

When in doubt, just let it ride.

 

[Braufessor]

I definitely am new and unskilled but I'm also a fanatic. I spend hour reading, books, forums, and magazines. Every time I have the opportunity to talk to experienced brewer I ask questions and listen until I think their tired of talking.

If you have someone in your area that consistently brews good beer - ask if you can hang out with them on a brew day or two..... Honestly, you can learn more in one day, watching a good brewer or two than you can trying to read and apply stuff on your own batches. Even after brewing for 20 years...... if I go and hang out with someone else while they brew, I always notice something I had never thought of, or never occurred to me. Seeing someone's process might trigger ideas you never even thought of.

 

[UglySister]

I posted the date of my LME a while back. It's 4/19/16. Is that within a reasonable freshness range?

 

[UglySister]

That's a pretty short fermentation time. I've found that all my brews, even my IPAs, taste better after at least six weeks, preferably more like two months. Anything with lager yeast I give at least three months (one in primary, two in secondary or bottle-conditioning). Before that, they tend to have what I can only describe as a sharp, green off-taste. Sometimes a little sulphurous or astringent. Have you tried the simplest fix, just letting your brews age longer?

When in doubt, just let it ride.

I learned somewhere along the line that it was important to transfer to the secondary while there is still some fermentation left so it can push the air out the carboy and replace it with co2. If this is true wouldn't a month in the primary be too long?

 

[derekcw83]

Get away from lme... that date to me is old...

I had a very weird botter flavor as well I couldn't fix. So many things could be the issue...

Best advice I can give is don't give up lol

Every thing you try to eliminate makes your beer better. I had a combination of many poor factors that were ruining my beer:

Oxidizing beer during bottling by splashing and stirring etc

LME twang, I eventually through out about 6 gallons of it I thought was good and it was not

Bad, old oxidized hops, ruined all my ipa's

Fermentation temps

 

[UglySister]

My first lager is in secondary now. I would have preferred to use a carboy, but because I had left it in primary for 16 days I was afraid it would not replace the air in secondary so I went straight to keg and used my co2 tank to pure air. Was that not necessary?

 

[UglySister]

I'm going to try and give this last kit back and get store credit. I will still do an intense cleaning of equipment just in case but I think it is the LME that I don't like. Switching to whole grain. This will most certainly create many new questions and you'll be hearing from me. I'm still going to town with some beer samples. I'll get back to you with descriptive word on the flavor. Thanks so much for your input. I can't tell you how happy I am that this forum exists! (by the way, ugly sister is the name my wife made up for our home brewery. I figure if it makes it fun for her and keeps her interested, sounds good to me.)

 

[Braufessor]

I learned somewhere along the line that it was important to transfer to the secondary while there is still some fermentation left so it can push the air out the carboy and replace it with co2. If this is true wouldn't a month in the primary be too long?

I would not do that personally. I would go 14-21 days in primary. No secondary. Bottle/Keg a that point. Transferring to secondary early is a good way to cause your yeast to stall out. There is really little or no reason to transfer a beer to secondary unless you are putting it on fruit, aging a big beer, etc. For a "normal" beer..... I would just go with a straight 2-3 week primary and bottle it.

 

[Mainer]

I learned somewhere along the line that it was important to transfer to the secondary while there is still some fermentation left so it can push the air out the carboy and replace it with co2. If this is true wouldn't a month in the primary be too long?

I guess it could depend on how much headspace you have in secondary. If you're using a 5 gallon batch and a 5 gallon carboy, there's not much oxygen in there anyway. I usually wait til my primary is all done (or mostly done) before racking.

 

[Mainer]

I would not do that personally. I would go 14-21 days in primary. No secondary. Bottle/Keg a that point. Transferring to secondary early is a good way to cause your yeast to stall out. There is really little or no reason to transfer a beer to secondary unless you are putting it on fruit, aging a big beer, etc. For a "normal" beer..... I would just go with a straight 2-3 week primary and bottle it.

I like my secondary, but I realize that's an unpopular decision. If you're going to bottle after three weeks, I would just recommend giving it ample bottle-aging time. Nearly all of my beers taste better after three months' aging. (And yeah, I do a lot of big beers, 7-10%, and a lot of dark grains, but generally speaking, a few months in the bottle only helps any beer.)

 

[Braufessor]

I like my secondary, but I realize that's an unpopular decision. If you're going to bottle after three weeks, I would just recommend giving it ample bottle-aging time. Nearly all of my beers taste better after three months' aging. (And yeah, I do a lot of big beers, 7-10%, and a lot of dark grains, but generally speaking, a few months in the bottle only helps any beer.)

Yep - I would use the bottle as my "secondary."

 

[Mainer]

Yep - I would use the bottle as my "secondary."

For "simple" ales, I agree.
My first beer was a Vienna Lager, my second a raspberry sour, and my third an 8.5% Baltic Porter, so I got hooked on lagering and secondary pretty early. I still do it for pretty much everything except my session ales. But yeah, I know it's a dangerous game.

 

[UglySister]

I plan to give my lager (summer Helles boch) until it's hot outside. July or August I suppose. Should be good by then, if it's not contaminated. I'll draw a sample in a few more weeks. If it has the off flavor, I probably won't bother waiting. I'd rather have the empty keg back.
I'm trying to find a used chest freezer right now for temp control. I'm sure I'll want a few of them eventually so I have temp options.

 

[UglySister]

I drink mostly beer. Coffee and oj in the morning and pretty much just beer after that. Because of this, I like to keep lots of low alcohol beer around. I love big beers but if I drank those all day I would end up drunk and I can't do that. Do low alcohol beers require less time?

 

[flars]

It is possible to have low ABV light colored beers ready to drink in four weeks. Two weeks primary and two weeks bottle/keg conditioning.

 

[Mainer]

It is possible to have low ABV light colored beers ready to drink in four weeks. Two weeks primary and two weeks bottle/keg conditioning.

Yeah... and now that you mention it, all the recipes he has brewed *were* that style, with the exception of the whiskey barrel stout, which would benefit from some conditioning time.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I drink mostly beer. Coffee and oj in the morning and pretty much just beer after that. Because of this, I like to keep lots of low alcohol beer around. I love big beers but if I drank those all day I would end up drunk and I can't do that. Do low alcohol beers require less time?

My experience is that big beers take about two weeks longer than smaller beers. One more week for aging and one more week to bottle prime.

I see you said the HIGHEST your basement gets is 70. It is winter and if the hottest it gets there is 80, then the basement is probably a great place to ferment ale. Seriously, I wish people could get off their high horse about electronically temperature controlled fermentation chambers. In parts of the country a basement could regularly be 50-70 degrees and quite stable for times long enough to primary a good beer. There are three good reasons for an electronically controlled fermentation chamber 1. You can make a lager in July without having to quit your job and watch your swamp cooler or whatever. 2. If you get distracted from attending to your beer it won't be ruined. 3. Convenience.

One's beer isn't necessarily better because one has electronic temp control, its just easier to not screw up that step. If you don't screw it up, you're fine.

I think that some people can't taste twang due to genetics and it drives those that can absolutely batty, since there's a huge group of people that think you are imagining it. If you want to still use extract, then use DME. It is my understanding that DME goes bad a lot slower than LME. I have used DME in my first 8 batches and didn't notice a twang, but then I might not be able to taste twang.

 

[UglySister]

I always bottle prime for at least 2 weeks. My norm is 1 week primary 1 week secondary 2 weeks bottle. Does this seem right?

 

[DaWhip]

Do you remove your kettle from your flame/heat source while adding your extract? Over caramelization can occur really quickly when the extract hits the bottom of your kettle before it gets mixed in well which can impart burnt/bitter flavor. That is the "extract flavor" to me and is pretty easy to overcome. If your beer comes out a little darker than expected, that is another clue that this is a culprit.

Not discounting any of the other suggestions here, just adding another consideration.

 

[McKnuckle]

I think your fermentation practices are fine. People tend to jump all over these threads, offering all kinds of helpful tips on how to brew in general - rather than truly focusing on the specific problem.

An off flavor can come from contamination by materials, infection by bacteria, yeast by-products, water composition, scorched ingredients, stale ingredients, extreme temperatures, suspended yeast/trub/hops, or lack of adequate aging. I'm sure I missed something. If you brew all grain, you have a couple more things to worry about, like tannin extraction, but that's rare.

I'd follow the advice to try brewing with DME first before you delve into all grain.

With

 

[Mainer]

I always bottle prime for at least 2 weeks. My norm is 1 week primary 1 week secondary 2 weeks bottle. Does this seem right?

There are no hard and fast rules. I'd just suggest that if you try a bottle when you think it should be ready and it doesn't taste right, maybe give it a few weeks and try again before you dump it.