Off flavor everytime

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UglySister

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I'm so frustrated. I just sampled my 8th brew. I used RO water because I can't think of any other explanation for the off flavor that's been every batch so far. It's there again. This is 8 beers in a row. There is another Lagering that I assume will have the same problem. I'm at a loss. Please offer your thoughts if you have any.
 
Nobody will be able to help you without more information. You didn't even mention what the off flavor is. Not to mention what your brewing process is or what your fermentation temperatures were, or....anything.
 
here is some of the info needed:

A full description of the off flavor / aroma

Recipe
Method (extract or all grain) Temperatures of mash
Yeast Type
Yeast pitch rate
Fermentation Temperature
Fermentation Time
Water additions
How you packaged
 
Perhaps others will disagree with me, but in my experience the quickest way to off-flavors is to use crappy water (soft water with chlorine for example) to start with, or to pitch the yeast way too hot. Both have been the culprit for the majority of my lackluster brews.

The other variable is infections in the primary or secondary. If you have good working equipment and sanitize properly that shouldn't be happening *everytime*.

Since you are using RO water, may I ask what your pitch temps generally are?
 
Perhaps others will disagree with me, but in my experience the quickest way to off-flavors is to use crappy water (soft water with chlorine for example) to start with, or to pitch the yeast way too hot. Both have been the culprit for the majority of my lackluster brews.

The other variable is infections in the primary or secondary. If you have good working equipment and sanitize properly that shouldn't be happening *everytime*.

Since you are using RO water, may I ask what your pitch temps generally are?

As all have stated so far, there is not enough information to make a guess.

For instance, RO with extract is OK. RO for all grain will need additives.

The OP has given no info on temperatures or sanitation.
 
Sorry for being so vague. I didn't really have time to go into detail.
All 7 out of the 8 batches were kits. The other was Alesmith IPA from 200 clones book. On that one I did the mini mash version and it barely had the off flavor.
I initially was advised I might have the water a little to hot during the steeping process. Extra attention to that changed nothing. The only other thing anyone could think of was water so this most recent batch was made with RO water. Same fricken flavor! It's drinkable but not enjoyable. I have drank 350 beers with this 320 beers with this off flavor and now have 80 more drink. I was extremely careful about sanitizing from the very first batch and have gotten more and anal about every bad batch. I'm positive I am not causing the problem with carelessness.
 
Sorry for being so vague. I didn't really have time to go into detail.
All 7 out of the 8 batches were kits. The other was Alesmith IPA from 200 clones book. On that one I did the mini mash version and it barely had the off flavor.
I initially was advised I might have the water a little to hot during the steeping process. Extra attention to that changed nothing. The only other thing anyone could think of was water so this most recent batch was made with RO water. Same fricken flavor! It's drinkable but not enjoyable. I have drank 350 beers with this 320 beers with this off flavor and now have 80 more drink. I was extremely careful about sanitizing from the very first batch and have gotten more and anal about every bad batch. I'm positive I am not causing the problem with carelessness.

Sounds like you are Extract brewing? Might be the dreaded Twang you are tasting. That is what got me to go all grain.
 
If the RO batch was better, than where is the water for your initial 7 batches from? Where are these kits being purchased? And most important...What is this off flavor? Band Aid? Cardboard? You have enough knowledge and experience here to get this figured out, but you have to be very specific. http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors
 
Kits can be pretty good so I'm guessing your fermentation temperatures are too high if all your brews have the same off flavor. High fermentation temperatures will produce a harsh alcohol flavor.
 
I spent a few hours with the owner of the brewers supply store in our town. The only thing he can think of is some piece of equipment was contaminated from the beginning and sanitizer didn't kill it. I'm now going to disassemble all equipment and soak over night CMC as hot as I can get.
The other thing we discussed is LME. He talked about the fact that it's processed and the unknown freshness factor in kits.
I want to jump into whole grain anyway so I am going to do it. I have one kit left to brew though and I really don't want to choke down another 50 crappy beers.
My first lager, that is now in my root cellar @ about 34°, did not seem to have the off flavor yet when I transfered to the keg I'm using as the secondary. I am hoping the cause of the off flavor was blocked by the lower fermenting temp although I'm afraid the contaminated piece of equipment, if there is one, is the hose used in racking. Even if it is the hose, and the beer in now contaminated, it may be protected by the low temperature. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
 
I spent a few hours with the owner of the brewers supply store in our town. The only thing he can think of is some piece of equipment was contaminated from the beginning and sanitizer didn't kill it. I'm now going to disassemble all equipment and soak over night CMC as hot as I can get.
The other thing we discussed is LME. He talked about the fact that it's processed and the unknown freshness factor in kits.
I want to jump into whole grain anyway so I am going to do it. I have one kit left to brew though and I really don't want to choke down another 50 crappy beers.
My first lager, that is now in my root cellar @ about 34°, did not seem to have the off flavor yet when I transfered to the keg I'm using as the secondary. I am hoping the cause of the off flavor was blocked by the lower fermenting temp although I'm afraid the contaminated piece of equipment, if there is one, is the hose used in racking. Even if it is the hose, and the beer in now contaminated, it may be protected by the low temperature. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

As I said, for me the taste was the LME. That flavor is what drove me to find HBT. A real easy test for you, you said you have one kit left. Open the LME and taste it. If that is the taste you are getting in your beer. Then you found it. It was for me. I still have bottles left of my first batch a year later. After three kits I switched to BIAB, I could not stand the LME taste. I converted my last three extract kits to all grain.
 
I ferment in my basement during the the summer. Its around 70 during the hottest season. I did find that beers don't carbonate down there unless it's really hot outside (over 80° is hot for us) so I have to bring them upstairs to carbonate.
 
One of the sources of off-flavors is stale extract. How fresh were the kits? What were the expiration dates on the extract? Or, failing that, when were they produced?

I know people producing excellent beer using extract, so it's not a certainty that extract brewing will result in the "twang." But Twang is a common-enough characteristic that there has to be circumstances creating it. I think, as was noted above, the two most likely sources are the water and the extract.

About the water you used (other than the RO): is it chlorinated? Did you do anything to get rid of it (boil it ahead of time, use a Campden tablet)?

It's been said that if your water tastes good, you can brew good beer, but that's untrue in the absolute. Mine tastes good but it's chlorinated, which imparts an off-flavor unless dealt with.

Some other things that may be contributing (noted above but worth repeating):

Sanitation. How clean is everything? How are you cleaning and sanitizing?

Fermentation temperature. How are you controlling this, if at all? Most beers fermented too warm (there are a few exceptions) will produce off flavors. I have a beer fermenting right now; I locked it in at 64 degrees F, ramped it up to 71 for a couple days after primary fermentation was complete, and now back down to 64 to finish.

It's been said by many that one of the most effective ways for brewers to improve their quality is by controlling fermentation temp. They're right.

And what's more: the ambient temperature in the area the beer is fermenting is not what you need to know; yeast, when fermenting, is exothermic, meaning it produces heat. The fermenting wort can be 5-10 degrees higher than ambient temperature due to this, so you must focus on the temp of the wort, not the temp of the surrounding environment.

Finally: my water is so minerally that I mostly use RO water. I'll sometimes cut the RO with a gallon or maybe 2 gallons of tap water, depending on the required water composition, but I still treat it for chlorine.
 
Thanks for sharing your experience. I really think that's the case for me also. (I'm referring to the comment of District liking LME)
 
I ferment in my basement during the the summer. Its around 70 during the hottest season. I did find that beers don't carbonate down there unless it's really hot outside (over 80° is hot for us) so I have to bring them upstairs to carbonate.

Bingo! You're not fermenting at 70; you're almost certainly fermenting at 75-80. Yeast fermentation is exothermic, meaning the process produces heat that will increase the wort temperature 5-10 degrees.

You must control the temperature of the wort, not the ambient temperature.

If you have the resources you can build a fermentation chamber or buy a cheap refrigerator and an Inkbird controller to manage fermentation temp. If resources don't exist to do that right now, consider a swamp cooler, which is the fermenter sitting in a pan of water, a t-shirt draped over the fermenter and hanging into the water. The water evaporates, cooling the wort. I even will put ice cubes under the t-shirt to start so that as they melt, they wet the t-shirt.

Fermentation temperature control. I'll bet a sixpack of my Funky Rye that this is what's going on.

PS: Sanitation, Water, and freshness of Extract could still be part of this.
 
To make an extract beer great, you have to have skill, practice and technique. If you are new, you don't have those. Taste the extract, see if that is the taste you are tasting before you start breaking down your fermentation temps and water chemistry. It could simply be you don't like the taste of LME and it is getting into you beer. It was the case for me.
 
The temperature outside right now is 8°.My basement is 55°-60°. I fermented my last batch upstairs because I thought that was to low. We keep the upstairs at 70° during the day and 65° at night. I put it in a closet in the middle of the house were I figured temperatures would be most stable.
 
The temperature outside right now is 8°.My basement is 55°-60°. I fermented my last batch upstairs because I thought that was to low. We keep the upstairs at 70° during the day and 65° at night. I put it in a closet in the middle of the house were I figured temperatures would be most stable.

I'm guessing here because I don't know the recipe and don't know the yeast, but no way would I have my beer fermenting at that temp unless there was a specific reason.

I think you're fermenting the beer too warm.
 
I brew the kits according to directions. I steep at 155°-160°. I keep my boil as low as possible while keeping it rolling. I transfer the kettle to a sink of ice water. I continue to add ice and stir wort until pitching temperature is achieved. (usually takes about 15 minutes. I then add room temperature (70°) water to get 5 gal. I pour it back and forth between two sanitized bottling buckets to ariate it. I then take my OG and pitch yeast. I ferment in primary for 1 week, rack to carboy for additional week, then bottle (or most recently keg now that I've invested in that).
 
What's the off-flavor? What does it taste like? Without knowing that, we can only speculate.

I spent a lot of time brewing mediocre beer and wasting time trying to figure out what was wrong with it. I used a proportion of distilled, I switched to partial mash, I swore off crystal malt. Some of these were legit improvements, while some weren't. But none were the main issue. What was it? I was pitching S-05 too low, and waiting a day or two in the low 60s before raising the temperature. I guess I just thought, low=cleaner, right? I'm still drinking the last bottles of the last beer from those days, a black IPA I call "escape from peach mountain."

The point is that it's easy to gather a lot of information and sweat the small stuff in your process, when there's one big problem. Usually (as I understand from my limited experience), the big problems are temperature, pitch rate, and patience. Sometimes the problem can be sanitation, and when it is, it is a big problem. But it's also (again, as I understand; could be wrong) not a very common problem. Certainly not the first thing I would assume to be the problem.
 
I wish I could describe the flavor. Even the supply shop owner didn't name it. He only stated that it was unusual. Normally he said when a beer is contaminated, the off flavor and smell are much stronger. This is subtle but the same flavor every time.
Sessions IPA, Mexican Cerveza, Red Ale, Whiskey barrel Stout, Pacific IPA, American Light, Alesmith IPA.
 
We could seriously help with this if you could describe the off flavor in a couple words.
Jumping into all grain won't be a fix if this is a process issue.
I would not fault someone for getting into all grain. It's pretty awesome but it will likely exploit your shortcomings/inexperience rather than hide or fix them.
 
I'm looking at the instructions now and they state, "move fermenter to a dark, warm, temperature stable area (approx. 64° - 72°)."
 
Overly bitter I would say. But a very specific bitter that is recognizable.
 
I am going back into town today with two more beer styles to talk to the local expert. I will also take the first one he tried. This way he can specifically identify the flavor. I will get a word or two from him to help describe it.
 
So I just grabbed the kit I'm doing next. The date on the LME is 4/19/16.
 
For me personally, I wasn't able to completely get rid of off flavors until I had full fermentation temp control. Not sure if this is what's causing your problem, but it sounds similar to what I dealt with. Always the same weird flavor & the beer was drinkable but not good
 
So I just grabbed the kit I'm doing next. The date on the LME is 4/19/16.

My first suggestion is to not use ANY LME. Use DME instead.

Are you doing something like Brewer's Best kits, that are already prepackaged?

I would suggest doing a recipe where you can buy DME, some grain (and have it crushed fresh, or do it yourself with a rolling pin), and some hops, and RO water.

Then see if we fixed it.
 
I am going back into town today with two more beer styles to talk to the local expert. I will also take the first one he tried. This way he can specifically identify the flavor. I will get a word or two from him to help describe it.

That would help for sure...

Often, high fermentation temps result in "hot" alcohol type flavors, "solvent" type flavors.

Contamination often can be sour, medicinal, Smoke/spice/phenolic, vinegar

Chlorine is usually "bandaid" "plastic" "phenolic flavors"

My guess, as it is presenting in all your batches is that the most likely culprit is infection and/or high fermentation temps. I think you said you used RO/distilled water on some of your batches - that would generally rule out Chlorine.... unless you are using it for sanitizing/cleaning.

Sanitation/cleaning..... I would recommend something like PBW for cleaning, but then make sure you are using Iodophor or Star San for sanitizing.

Make sure you are taking EVERYTHING apart when sanitizing and cleaning.... spigots come apart, bottle fillers come apart.... lots of things come apart that people do not realize. Those things are PERFECT for harboring nasty stuff.

Getting someone experienced to sample and help is definitely the way to go. :mug:
 
I definitely am new and unskilled but I'm also a fanatic. I spend hour reading, books, forums, and magazines. Every time I have the opportunity to talk to experienced brewer I ask questions and listen until I think their tired of talking. I'm constantly doing something. I have a habit of brewing way more than I can drink (not good since I try and drink it all so I can brew more). So yeah, I'm green but I don't just plow straight ahead with no knowledge or efforts to learn. That's partially why this is frustrating.
 
I am going back into town today with two more beer styles to talk to the local expert. I will also take the first one he tried. This way he can specifically identify the flavor. I will get a word or two from him to help describe it.


Sounds good.
I routinely bring beers to the LHBS for feedback. Some of the staff are beer judges and trained for this kind of stuff.

Astringent
Astringency differs from bitterness by having a puckering quality, like sucking on a tea bag. It is dry, kind of powdery and is often the result of steeping grains too long or when the pH of the mash exceeds the range of 5.2 - 5.6. Oversparging the mash or using water that is too hot are common causes for exceeding the mash pH range. It can also be caused by over-hopping during either the bittering or finishing stages. Bacterial infections can also cause astringency, i.e. vinegar tones from aceto bacteria
 
The best beer I have made was Alesmith IPA. I did the partial mash and added 3 lbs DME and 4 lbs LME. The flavor was still detectable but very slight. If it hadn't been in every other beer I doubt I would have even picked up on it. This leads me to believe it's the LME I don't like. All the other brews were Brewers best kits using only LME.
 
Have you ever brewed the same beer twice? It's a good way to see if any changes you make are actually doing anything. Jumping around with different styles make it tough to figure out what a problem is. When I first started, I brewed the same beer 7 times, each time changing one thing until I figured out how to make "good" beer. That alone made me improve my technique. Once you get the process down, then move on to other beers with the knowledge you learned.
 
Sounds good.
I routinely bring beers to the LHBS for feedback. Some of the staff are beer judges and trained for this kind of stuff.

Astringent
Astringency differs from bitterness by having a puckering quality, like sucking on a tea bag. It is dry, kind of powdery and is often the result of steeping grains too long or when the pH of the mash exceeds the range of 5.2 - 5.6. Oversparging the mash or using water that is too hot are common causes for exceeding the mash pH range. It can also be caused by over-hopping during either the bittering or finishing stages. Bacterial infections can also cause astringency, i.e. vinegar tones from aceto bacteria

I addressed the steeping Temps with great attention thinking that was the problem and as far as over hopping, I followed the recipe exactly.
 
I brew the kits according to directions. I steep at 155°-160°. I keep my boil as low as possible while keeping it rolling. I transfer the kettle to a sink of ice water. I continue to add ice and stir wort until pitching temperature is achieved. (usually takes about 15 minutes. I then add room temperature (70°) water to get 5 gal. I pour it back and forth between two sanitized bottling buckets to ariate it. I then take my OG and pitch yeast. I ferment in primary for 1 week, rack to carboy for additional week, then bottle (or most recently keg now that I've invested in that).
That's a pretty short fermentation time. I've found that all my brews, even my IPAs, taste better after at least six weeks, preferably more like two months. Anything with lager yeast I give at least three months (one in primary, two in secondary or bottle-conditioning). Before that, they tend to have what I can only describe as a sharp, green off-taste. Sometimes a little sulphurous or astringent. Have you tried the simplest fix, just letting your brews age longer?

When in doubt, just let it ride.
 
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