Off flavor and taste-Help

[Menno]

Damn you even moved to a new house to try and fix the problem? That's taking homebrew to a new level!.. JK

I didn't see anything about where you purchase your ingredients from? Have you tried getting from another source? I know it's not EVERY beer but it could be an ingredient you use in every hoppy beer

Yes. The move was a bit excessive.
I mostly buy my ingredients from more beer. So reputable.
Personally I still think the issue is in my hops or fermentation.
I measure my FG with a tilt. I mostly hit FG target or 1 or 2 points above.
Use only dry yeast, sprinkle it on the wort.
One pack for a ABV of around 6-6.5.
Stressed yeast??

 

[IslandLizard]

The only thing I have not done is clean the Co2 lines……

If beer backed up into your gas system, and was never cleaned and dried, that can become an issue, of course. But you'd probably see that in the lines.

 

[IslandLizard]

Use only dry yeast, sprinkle it on the wort.
One pack for a ABV of around 6-6.5.
Stressed yeast??

Which yeast(s)?
Now, if you've always done that, with good results, then why would it suddenly change?

Personally I still think the issue is in my hops or fermentation.

Maybe it is the hops. Where did you get them from?

 

[Menno]

Which yeast(s)?
Now, if you've always done that, with good results, then why would it suddenly change?


Maybe it is the hops. Where did you get them from?

Mostly More Beer

 

[Menno]

If beer backed up into your gas system, and was never cleaned and dried, that can become an issue, of course. But you'd probably see that in the lines.

Yes. But it will clean them anyway. Can’t hurt.

 

[Menno]

Mostly More Beer

Different ones. Lallemand east coast , S04, Verdant.
But indeed I didn’t change anything in
My procedures. So why the change in smell ??

 

[mac_1103]

You could try getting one of these. Pretty pricey though. It's too bad there isn't a cheap scratch and sniff version for aromas.

 

[wdavis2003]

Yes. The move was a bit excessive.
I mostly buy my ingredients from more beer. So reputable.
Personally I still think the issue is in my hops or fermentation.
I measure my FG with a tilt. I mostly hit FG target or 1 or 2 points above.
Use only dry yeast, sprinkle it on the wort.
One pack for a ABV of around 6-6.5.
Stressed yeast??

Well I will tell you there was a time when I only ordered kits from Morebeer and I kept having a metallic off flavor in the end product. I switched to a different supplier and the off flavor was gone. I then ordered again from Morebeer and the off flavor returned. I did some research and the off flavor could be contributed to improperly stored grain.

I have since returned to buying kits from Morebeer when I don't feel like researching my own recipes and the off flavor is gone.

Try and get your ingredients from a different source for the next batch and see if the problem goes away.

 

[IslandLizard]

[Re: source of hops] Mostly More Beer

They have (or at least used to have) a commercial pro-brewer division for hop sales. I don't know about their hops sold to homebrewers, or how those are repackaged and stored.

There may be better sources for hops, IMO. For example:
Yakima Valley Hops
Hops Direct

How do you store your hops?
For how long, before they're used up?

 

[IslandLizard]

Yes. But it will clean them anyway. Can’t hurt.

Since your British beers don't have the off smells, it doesn't seem to point to your gas system. Or as you hinted to, their maltiness may cover it up more.

If you're cleaning them, which may not be needed, it's important that they are thoroughly dried on the inside, before reinstalling them.

Are you using EVA Barrier tubing for both gas and liquid? It's highly recommended.

 

[pvtpublic]

How about you post your process in full detail of both the British beers and the IPAs. That might help

 

[Menno]

Well I will tell you there was a time when I only ordered kits from Morebeer and I kept having a metallic off flavor in the end product. I switched to a different supplier and the off flavor was gone. I then ordered again from Morebeer and the off flavor returned. I did some research and the off flavor could be contributed to improperly stored grain.

I have since returned to buying kits from Morebeer when I don't feel like researching my own recipes and the off flavor is gone.

Try and get your ingredients from a different source for the next batch and see if the problem goes away.

Thanks. Will try that. Always good to try another source. Which suppliers did/do you use?

 

[Menno]

Since your British beers don't have the off smells, it doesn't seem to point to your gas system. Or as you hinted to, their maltiness may cover it up more.

If you're cleaning them, which may not be needed, it's important that they are thoroughly dried on the inside, before reinstalling them.

Are you using EVA Barrier tubing for both gas and liquid? It's highly recommended.

I will check my tubing. And will try hops from different sources.
I buy 8-16 oz quantities.
Have repackaged them in vacuum sealed smaller quantities. And also have kept them in Mylar original bags, squeezing out air.
Always kept in freezer.

 

[pvtpublic]

I will check my tubing. And will try hops from different sources.
I buy 8-16 oz quantities.
Have repackaged them in vacuum sealed smaller quantities. And also have kept them in Mylar original bags, squeezing out air.
Always kept in freezer.

This might be the issue. Are you getting a cheesy kinda smell/flavor? It could certainly be the oxidation of the hops. It doesn't matter if you're storing in the freezer if they are stored with even the slightest amount of oxygen. Even trying to push the air out after will still lead to oxidation. Try using the 1oz bags, or if you have the means, flush the bags with nitrogen before sealing them off and sending them to the freezer.

How old are these bags of hops?

 

[Menno]

How about you post your process in full detail of both the British beers and the IPAs. That might help

Process;
Always use RO water and match minerals with profile of beer.
BIAB on gas burner.
Mash at relatively constant temps mostly around 152 degrees. Normally loose 2 degrees in temp.
Use hopstands for my iPAs at around 175 degrees.
Use Ss brew tech fermenter.
Can control fermentation temp. Ferment mostly at 65 degrees.
Sometimes cold crash, making sure no oxygen draws back in my fermenter.
Dry hop my IPAs normally twice. Sometimes both in fermenter. Sometimes one in fermenter ( have progressed to a dry hopper that avoids oxygen) and one dry hop in keg ( here there is some oxygen introduces. But I don’t have oxidized IPAs )
For my iPad I purged starsan out of keg and do a C02 pressurized transfer.
Ferment around 14 days.
Keg most of my beers. Sometimes bottle my ales.
Put kegs under pressure for 4 days and start tasting them. Drink IPAs over a period of 2-4 weeks.
Can add detail to my processes, but these are the main procedures.
Haven’t changed anything over the years ( besides more contentious about avoiding oxygen) between my good beers and now the off smell / flavored IPAs.
Did not change anything in storing my grains or hops.

 

[Menno]

This might be the issue. Are you getting a cheesy kinda smell/flavor? It could certainly be the oxidation of the hops. It doesn't matter if you're storing in the freezer if they are stored with even the slightest amount of oxygen. Even trying to push the air out after will still lead to oxidation. Try using the 1oz bags, or if you have the means, flush the bags with nitrogen before sealing them off and sending them to the freezer.

How old are these bags of hops?

The issue is that they don’t smell cheesy and I have not changed my hops storage and had good results before.
Plus I use the same storage if my previous home brew ground ( in vermont) who makes great IPAs and even neipas in bottles!

 

[jerrylotto]

If you download a blank BJCP score sheet, there is a list of defects with descriptions along the left side that might help you characterize the off flavor a little better. The BJCP guidelines also have a pretty good write up of what off flavors taste like. If you can't find someone with an educated palate to help you educate your own!

 

[adyb]

I hope this doesn't sound stupidly obvious, but how are you santizing your kit? you mention you use starsan, but have you actually checked it to be sure it's good, i.e. tested its pH, I've had issues, and only after testing this discovered my starsan ph was up around 6 instead of below 3.5 which makes it useless.

 

[Saunassa]

Yes. The move was a bit excessive.
I mostly buy my ingredients from more beer. So reputable.
Personally I still think the issue is in my hops or fermentation.
I measure my FG with a tilt. I mostly hit FG target or 1 or 2 points above.
Use only dry yeast, sprinkle it on the wort.
One pack for a ABV of around 6-6.5.
Stressed yeast??

You state that you use a Tilt. Have you done a brew without it that tastes and smells good? If so maybe take the cap off and replace the seal or change out the whole housing?

 

[Menno]

You state that you use a Tilt. Have you done a brew without it that tastes and smells good? If so maybe take the cap off and replace the seal or change out the whole housing?

No. Have not done that. Might do that.
I was wondering about the seal and casing. Where do you get extra ones? Didn’t know you could replace them.

 

[Menno]

No. Have not done that. Might do that.
I was wondering about the seal and casing. Where do you get extra ones? Didn’t know you could replace them.

I hope this doesn't sound stupidly obvious, but how are you santizing your kit? you mention you use starsan, but have you actually checked it to be sure it's good, i.e. tested its pH, I've had issues, and only after testing this discovered my starsan ph was up around 6 instead of below 3.5 which makes it useless.

Yes. I have tested my starsan. pH was 3

 

[Menno]

If you download a blank BJCP score sheet, there is a list of defects with descriptions along the left side that might help you characterize the off flavor a little better. The BJCP guidelines also have a pretty good write up of what off flavors taste like. If you can't find someone with an educated palate to help you educate your own!

Thanks for that suggestion. I will download it.
Yes I would love to educate my palate.

 

[JohnDBrewer]

But why didn’t I have this smell 2 years ago???

Did you get COVID around that time. Maybe your sensitivity to a specific hop has changed. Smell each hop you have used to see if there is a hint of what you are smell.

Did you change how you dry hop, the process, timing and how long you leave it in?

Since this smell is only in hoppy beers and it faded tells me it is a hop issue.

 

[jerrylotto]

No. Have not done that. Might do that.
I was wondering about the seal and casing. Where do you get extra ones? Didn’t know you could replace them.

I drilled a small hole in the cap of the small plastic container the tilt came in. I fill it with sanitizer solution after putting the tilt back in and the hole allows the air to escape when I put the cap back on. So whenever my tilt is not in my fermenter it's soaking in sanitizer solution. I have two tilts and rotate my use so one is sanitizing while the other is being used. As long as it stays dry inside I know that the seal is good.

 

[Saunassa]

No. Have not done that. Might do that.
I was wondering about the seal and casing. Where do you get extra ones? Didn’t know you could replace them.

Just looked, Tilt has replacement tube, cap and washer on their site for $15

 

[Menno]

Just looked, Tilt has replacement tube, cap and washer on their site for $15

Thanks. Will buy one. Just in case.

 

[Menno]

I drilled a small hole in the cap of the small plastic container the tilt came in. I fill it with sanitizer solution after putting the tilt back in and the hole allows the air to escape when I put the cap back on. So whenever my tilt is not in my fermenter it's soaking in sanitizer solution. I have two tilts and rotate my use so one is sanitizing while the other is being used. As long as it stays dry inside I know that the seal is good.

Interesting approach. Thanks

 

[Menno]

Did you get COVID around that time. Maybe your sensitivity to a specific hop has changed. Smell each hop you have used to see if there is a hint of what you are smell.

Did you change how you dry hop, the process, timing and how long you leave it in?

Since this smell is only in hoppy beers and it faded tells me it is a hop issue.

Have not changed much in my dry hopping. If any change I changed back and forth to rule things out.
And yes I agree, having now also looked at all the feedback I got on this forum ( many thanks every one) ; I think it is a hop issue. With my latest west coast ipa the strange smell got much less over time. As somebody suggested maybe it is a storage issue. Still puzzled why I didn’t have the issue before as I don’t think I changed my storage ritual
As smell got less over time I doubt that it is a sanitazation issue, but will keep an eye out.

 

[wdavis2003]

Thanks. Will try that. Always good to try another source. Which suppliers did/do you use?

I have a couple of local homebrew stores that I order from when I don't use Morebeer

 

[Zambezi Special]

have a look online:
google: complete beer fault guide
it's a free pdf
If I try to copy the link it starts downloading, so you gotta old-fashioned-type-it-yourself.

Good luck with finding out. I', way too inexperienced to help any further