Nottingham Ale Yeast

[mak]

Hi everyone,

I have been using nottingham ale yeast with apple juice fermenting at relatively high temperatures. About 30 degree celsius.

I waited about a month to bottle then another before drinking. My cider turns out drinkable but taste watery without any good hints of apple sweetness. I add brown sugar before primary fermentation.

My questions are

1. How do I get a sweeter more flavorful cider?

2. How does aging affect the taste?

3. How does the temperature affect the taste?

 

[oldmate]

I think the watery taste might be coming from the apple juice you are using. I use juice pressed straight from the orchard. I have only ever used a generic supermarket brand which turned out watery and tasteless.

Aging in bulk for at least 3 months gives me a good amount of flavour, but the longer the better. You should do an experimental batch where you ferment 3 or 4 gallons and then split it into batches which will age for different times, then you can know for sure. For a sweeter batch, you can opt for sweetening with a non-fermentable sugar such as xylitol or lactose or you can pasteurise (there is a sticky for this at the top of the forum).

I don't know how much temperature affects the taste, but I would imagine fermenting at those temperatures nothing tasty would come out of it. The higher you go the more by-products the yeast creates, such as alcohols other than ethanol. This means that you will need a longer amount of time aging these as they take a lot longer to break down and smooth out.

Hope that helps.

 

[mak]

Good suggestion on using non fermentable sugar. Will try using those.

Might press fresh juice instead of using store bought juice too.

 

[patriqq]

I use store juice and Nottingham (and sweeteners). I ferment to 1.008 (about 10 days), filter to remove yeast, keg & carbonate. I usually drink about half the keg then bottle the rest.

I'm going for a Sam Smith's clone (light, crisp, refreshing). Its ready to drink in 11 days, and tastes the same 6 months later (I've only been doing this since recipe since January).

As far as I'm concerned, aging, back-sweetening, non-fermentable sugars, etc are unnecessary with a good recipe and the right equipment.

 

[wildman]

Call me a curmudgeon, but I don't believe "recipe" and "cider" belong in the same post. What you make may be good in a tasteless Sam smith, woodchuck, hornsbys way, but ill bet dollars to diamonds you've never tasted a real cider.

 

[patriqq]

I don't consider Sam Smiths and Woodchuck to be in the same category whatsoever (Woodchuck is sugary garbage in my opinion). You are certainly entitled to your opinion and free to make the cider of your choice.

But you're probably correct - the closest thing I've had to what you call a 'real cider' is Scrumpys; and I don't care for it.

However, I don't think that is the point. The point is, I'm not trying to make a so-called 'real cider.' I'm trying to make a Sam Smith's clone, because I like Sam Smiths.

Even more to the point, I'm explaining how the OP can use his yeast of choice to achieve "good hints of apple sweetness."

Since we're on the subject of 'real ciders,' I'm not sure if I would consider chemicals (yeast inhibitors etc) or non-fermentable sugars part of a 'real cider.'

 

[dinnerstick]

i'm with the wild man! i have nothing against semi-sweet chugging ciders, they bullseye your thirst on a hot day and they have their place, if that's what you want then go for it, but people starting out should know that there is a vast gulf in quality between aged ciders made from apples and woodchuck stlye stop and shop juice Fizzy mcChugger ciders

 

[gregbathurst]

I don't think there is any point in criticizing home cider with storebought juice, for a lot of people that is all they have access to. If you live in singapore you won't be able to get cheap good local apples or juice. If you want to sing the praises of fresh-pressed juice you would be better starting a new thread.

 

[dinnerstick]

agreed. it's just when you like something so much it's easy to get worked up over it!

 

[kappclark]

Going to pitch 5 gals of cider (which started as organic VT pressed cider) that has been in glass secondary for 6 months, but has developed a white film on the top,,I am guessing a bad infection...

I have another 5 G glass carboy with no film, but it tastes like Lysol ...

Bad luck in the cider dept...Might just stick with beer

 

[gregbathurst]

Going to pitch 5 gals of cider (which started as organic VT pressed cider) that has been in glass secondary for 6 months, but has developed a white film on the top,,I am guessing a bad infection...

I have another 5 G glass carboy with no film, but it tastes like Lysol ...

Bad luck in the cider dept...Might just stick with beer

It's a pity you had problems first up. The most common problem is too much air contact, like too much headspace or handling. Normally if you keep the glass carboy full to the neck cider is pretty safe, there is nowhere for the film yeast to live.

 

[wildman]

Going to pitch 5 gals of cider (which started as organic VT pressed cider) that has been in glass secondary for 6 months, but has developed a white film on the top,,I am guessing a bad infection...

I have another 5 G glass carboy with no film, but it tastes like Lysol ...

Bad luck in the cider dept...Might just stick with beer

Please please don't throw it away. Your cider might still be great and I'm not joking. Yeast films are common if you rack your cider. You need to rack your cider to another carboy, sulphite it to 50ppm, and top it off with juice or frozen concentrate. Then let the new sugars ferment out and your back to square one.

 

[wildman]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/2010-cider-notes-204921/index2.html. here is a link to a guy who had the same problem as you and his was excellent. Again this is one of the couple of reasons I don't rack my cider.

 

[wildman]

I don't consider Sam Smiths and Woodchuck to be in the same category whatsoever (Woodchuck is sugary garbage in my opinion). You are certainly entitled to your opinion and free to make the cider of your choice.

But you're probably correct - the closest thing I've had to what you call a 'real cider' is Scrumpys; and I don't care for it.

However, I don't think that is the point. The point is, I'm not trying to make a so-called 'real cider.' I'm trying to make a Sam Smith's clone, because I like Sam Smiths.

Even more to the point, I'm explaining how the OP can use his yeast of choice to achieve "good hints of apple sweetness."

Since we're on the subject of 'real ciders,' I'm not sure if I would consider chemicals (yeast inhibitors etc) or non-fermentable sugars part of a 'real cider.'

Well if I'm going to get to a point you didn't give him any good advice either. you told him he has to go out and buy a keg setup and a filter. Which are both very expensive. Did you not see that he is bottling?

And you know what I agree with the last part of your post that those crap additions disqualify it from being a real cider also. Yeast suphites and fresh juice - that's a real cider.

I don't have any problem with people who live in climate not conducive to Apple growing like Singapore making Walmart cider. I do have a problem with people who do live in Apple growing country like Pennsylvania making Walmart hooch, trying to call it cider and giving irrelevant and expensive advice. Lastly you have a method not a recipe, there is no such thing as a recipe when it comes to cider.

To the OP, if your looking for more flavor and sweetness read pappers sticky. There's a lot better advice there than anywhere in this thread.

Man am I grumpy today.

 

[rexbanner]

Well if I'm going to get to a point you didn't give him any good advice either. you told him he has to go out and buy a keg setup and a filter. Which are both very expensive. Did you not see that he is bottling?

And you know what I agree with the last part of your post that those crap additions disqualify it from being a real cider also. Yeast suphites and fresh juice - that's a real cider.

I don't have any problem with people who live in climate not conducive to Apple growing like Singapore making Walmart cider. I do have a problem with people who do live in Apple growing country like Pennsylvania making Walmart hooch, trying to call it cider and giving irrelevant and expensive advice. Lastly you have a method not a recipe, there is no such thing as a recipe when it comes to cider.

To the OP, if your looking for more flavor and sweetness read pappers sticky. There's a lot better advice there than anywhere in this thread.

Man am I grumpy today.

Quit being a ******. You tried to call him out, and you failed. Get over yourself.

Anyways, if you want to make a sweeter cider, it's a little bit difficult to do without a refrigerator and kegging setup. I've used splenda, but splenda tastes bad IMO. I had the most luck recently with using storebought apple juice, US-05, and cold-crashing at 1.010. That was after 4 or 5 days, but I also overpitched a bit. My cider went from juice to glass in 15 days, and it tasted considerably better than the cider I let ferment down completely, or the one I backsweetened with splenda.

 

[wildman]

How was I wrong in any way? Yes I may be a bit terse, but i, unlike you, didn't resort to name calling.

 

[mak]

Hi guys thanks for all the input.

I use store bought juice because I use a home kitchen juicer and it took me 3 hours to get 4 litres previously so I kinda gave up. Might rethink a way to juice the apples.

 

[dinnerstick]

mak i use a juicer sometimes and it's really fast (not super efficient but fast) i can do 10 liters in about half an hour, and it's just the cheapest one from a kitchen supply shop, so i wonder what's wrong with yours... that said mine works well with some varieties and not so well with others, anything a bit spongy it turns to mush and clogs up whereas anything crisp it devours

 

[mak]

Oh it is because after it juices there is the pulp and I use a mesh to squeeze the wet pulp to get all the juice. The collecting of the pulp and manual squeezing is really tedious.

Could I just blend the apples and throw in the yeast and allow the solid pulp to settle in primary fermentation?

 

[dinnerstick]

dunno. another strategy of mine is to grate the apples using the coarse cheese grater setting of my food processor, and press by hand in 2-3 layers of cheesecloth, wrapping up a handful of apple and twisting like when you wring out a wet towel. really slow work but the juice quality is great. i only do this for a 5L batch; my hands can't take any more. it's tedious

 

[kappclark]

Please please don't throw it away. Your cider might still be great and I'm not joking. Yeast films are common if you rack your cider. You need to rack your cider to another carboy, sulphite it to 50ppm, and top it off with juice or frozen concentrate. Then let the new sugars ferment out and your back to square one.

OK ! I haven't done the deed yet ... so I guess I may as well try racking to another carboy .. I am willing to try it at this point ... I have 1 more glass carboy ... there is a headspace, which was created by taking samples (too many I guess) and I never topped off with juice etc..

If I rack carefully (autosiphon), then the white stuff on the top will stay behind...I will ask my LHBS about the sulphite material, unless you have a suggestion (not sure what amount of material gives 50 PPM )

... and I guess I will leave the second lysol carboy alone..

 

[patriqq]

Well if I'm going to get to a point you didn't give him any good advice either. you told him he has to go out and buy a keg setup and a filter. Which are both very expensive. Did you not see that he is bottling?

And you know what I agree with the last part of your post that those crap additions disqualify it from being a real cider also. Yeast suphites and fresh juice - that's a real cider.

I don't have any problem with people who live in climate not conducive to Apple growing like Singapore making Walmart cider. I do have a problem with people who do live in Apple growing country like Pennsylvania making Walmart hooch, trying to call it cider and giving irrelevant and expensive advice. Lastly you have a method not a recipe, there is no such thing as a recipe when it comes to cider.

To the OP, if your looking for more flavor and sweetness read pappers sticky. There's a lot better advice there than anywhere in this thread.

Man am I grumpy today.

I didn't mean to rub you the wrong way.

When I say recipe, I mean 'choice of sugars and yeast.' I think different sugars and different yeasts impart different flavors.

I realize my methods are not popular and my suggestions involve equipment purchases. The filter set-up was about $85. However, it works well for me so I share my experiences; members are free to take my advice or leave it.

Walmart juice, and most other supermarket-brand juices are from China. I use Wegmans juice because it's the only bottled juice from USA/Canada that I can find. There is plenty of fresh cider around me; I started off using it with poor results so now I use bottled. I'll probably give the fresh juice another try when the season comes.

 

[dinnerstick]

I will ask my LHBS about the sulphite material, unless you have a suggestion (not sure what amount of material gives 50 PPM )

some rules of thumb for sulfites, the amount of potassium metabisulfite (K-Meta) to give the corresponding amount (in PPM or parts per million) free sulfite SO2:

1 tsp K-Meta =~ 5.5g
1/8 tsp K-Meta in 1 gallon gives about 100 PPM SO2
(or 180 mg per L gives 100 PPM)

(1 campden = 0.44 g = 0.08 tsp)

so if you want 50 PPM in 5 gals:
1/16 tsp per gal x 5 gal = 5/16th tsp;
so about 1/4 tsp K-Meta powder, or easier to do by serial dilution:
dissolve 1 tsp in 40 mls clean water and add (about) 12.5 mls of that
any wine supply shop will have K-Meta. good luck