Not getting "hoppiness in my beers

[bwidner]

Hi everyone and thanks ahead for any advice or replies. I have made a few ipas at this point and have gone really heavy with late hop additions and dry hopping, however two weeks after bottline when I crack one open there is very little hop aroma or taste and I feel like I am missing something. My most recent was an amber ipa 2.5 gal batch and here were the additions

FWH- 1 oz chinook
15 min- 1 oz simcoe
10 min .75 oz centennial
5 minute .75 centennial
3 min .5 centennial
flameout 1oz centennial

Dry hopped 5 days in secondary with 1.5 oz centennial and 1 oz citra.

I would think this would lead to a very hop forward beer, and while it is very good there just is no reall hoppiness to it. I used s-04 yeast as well and rehydrated it prior to pitching.

Just looking for some help here as I am about 8 batches in and have yet to be able to make something that I am in love with due to the lack of hoppy aroma and taste.

 

[brew_ny]

this is a pretty good read about hops and hop usage

http://babblehomebrewers.com/attachments/article/68/hopusage.pdf


all the best

S_M

 

[bwidner]

Awesome read, so I think as far as hop flavor I need to stick more in that 25-7 minute range. As far as not acheiving aroma, though based off that read I would think that I would be getting large amounts of aroma...although that actually leads me to wonder if the vessel is maybe leaking it out? I had been brewing using a Mr beer keg from the kit my girlfriend bought me that got me into the hobby, I wonder if the way it vents could be causing it? I currently have my first 5 gal batch fermenting in an ale pale so in a month maybe I will be able to compare and cross that off the list. I have two of the LBKs, and planned on continuing to use them since a 2.5 gal batch is easier for experimentals/beers I wont drink a bunch of etc.

 

[Qhrumphf]

How's your chill time? If you're taking a long time to chill, you may be taking all that hop flavor and aroma, and isomerizing and driving it off.

 

[kev211]

How's your chill time? If you're taking a long time to chill, you may be taking all that hop flavor and aroma, and isomerizing and driving it off.

Thats what I was gonna say. Ive even recently been trying adding my flameout/flavoring hops straight to my carboy when transferring the chilled wort and Ive noticed a huge boost in hop flavor vs when I added them just at flameout

 

[m00ps]

id suggest the opposite of chilling fast and trying out a hopstand. I usually like 8oz or so added after flameout to get an enormous amount of hop character with no jaw clenching bitterness at the end

 

[Qhrumphf]

id suggest the opposite of chilling fast and trying out a hopstand. I usually like 8oz or so added after flameout to get an enormous amount of hop character with no jaw clenching bitterness at the end

Whirlpool hops/hopstand, or a hopback are certainly good ways to go. Just the point is if you're hopping at 15 mins left in the boil and then taking a while to chill, there isn't much left from that 15 minute addition besides bitterness. If I were going that route, I'd use only a single bittering addition, and then solely whirlpool hops/hopstand/hopback.

 

[JKaranka]

Water?

 

[mrdail87]

Water?

That's a good question too. Are you using tap water, some kind of bottled water, or distilled water?

 

[augiedoggy]

how old are your hops? how do you store them? in the fridge? freezer? do you just throw them in the kettle or do you use a muslin bag or hop spider?

 

[Kevin79]

I've just recently been experimenting more with IPAs in the past year but I've found that 5 days dry hopping for me leads to me vegetable/stale flavors. I prefer to dry hop no more than 3 days, but I brew with really hard tap water.

 

[bwidner]

How's your chill time? If you're taking a long time to chill, you may be taking all that hop flavor and aroma, and isomerizing and driving it off.

Chill time had been in the 30-40 minute range due to a wort chiller just being a recent purchase(have only used it for two batches neither of which are ready yet).

Originally Posted by JKaranka View Post
Water?
That's a good question too. Are you using tap water, some kind of bottled water, or distilled water?

Water is Chicago tap water

how old are your hops? how do you store them? in the fridge? freezer? do you just throw them in the kettle or do you use a muslin bag or hop spider?

Age I am not sure, have never really paid attention to that, although I will for sure. I try to buy 1lb bags in order to save a few bucks and I store them in the freezer until I open them and then keep in the fridge.
I use a large Muslin bag for hop additions, I use a large one so that I can tie the top to the kettle handle and use just the one bag for all additions.

 

[JKaranka]

I'd consider making the mash a bit more acidic, and then adding some gypsum to the water. Will help it drop clear too.

 

[mrdail87]

Water is Chicago tap water

I've noticed a huge difference in beers I've brewed with 100% tap water, and ones I've mixed with bottled drinking water. It's usually just a 50/50 mix, but water can make all the difference in a beer. It is afterall, the biggest ingredient.

Our tap water here isn't the greatest, YMMV.

 

[Natdavis777]

Water?

This is my concern as well... I, too, lacked hop presence until I switched to RO water and started custom building my water to each beer profile.

 

[bwidner]

Thats what I was gonna say. Ive even recently been trying adding my flameout/flavoring hops straight to my carboy when transferring the chilled wort and Ive noticed a huge boost in hop flavor vs when I added them just at flameout

How long do you leave those hops in?

 

[m00ps]

I like to do 45min-1hr before chilling for a hopstand

 

[kev211]

How long do you leave those hops in?

Until I keg. Why?

 

[bwidner]

Whirlpool hops/hopstand, or a hopback are certainly good ways to go. Just the point is if you're hopping at 15 mins left in the boil and then taking a while to chill, there isn't much left from that 15 minute addition besides bitterness. If I were going that route, I'd use only a single bittering addition, and then solely whirlpool hops/hopstand/hopback.

If adding whirlpool/doing a hopstand, is it best to leave the hops in the kettle while I chill it or pulling them for the chilling?

 

[Rdom]

Chicago tap water is probably a large part of the problem. Both me and my neighbor have had disappointing results with hoppy beers using unmodified Chicago tap water. Once we started diluting with distilled water and adding gypsum to our water, we've both had much better results. I usually dilute ~50% with distilled water and add gypsum and calcium chloride to get an estimated pH around 5.3 for the mash (using Brewers Friend water chemistry calculator). You'll have to experiment with sulfate levels to your taste. You can find the city's water profile on the city's website. What they report is close to the water analysis my neighbor had done last year on his tap water.

 

[Qhrumphf]

If adding whirlpool/doing a hopstand, is it best to leave the hops in the kettle while I chill it or pulling them for the chilling?

I would leave them in personally. I don't bother with hop bags. That may also be part of your problem. Hop bags lower utilization.

 

[slym2none]

#nakedhops #hopsgocommando

 

[bwidner]

I would leave them in personally. I don't bother with hop bags. That may also be part of your problem. Hop bags lower utilization.

Is this also true for dryhopping?

 

[Qhrumphf]

I've noticed from my own experience (no data, but there's probably some out there) that hop bags make cleanup easier, but at the cost of flavor/aroma. And that applies to both kettle hops and dry hops.

 

[TheHopfather]

I was having trouble with hop presence in my IPA for a while too. I recently brewed a batch that finally blew me away. I changed a bunch of things on my IPA journey and finally got to the point I was looking for.

• First of all I went with 2.4oz of hops per gal of beer, you're close at 2.0oz/gal,
• Second I went with Yoopers suggestion for hopping schedule. Small bittering charge and then hop at 15/10/5/hop stand,
• Third cool the wort to below 180F for a hop stand to avoid isomerization, stand for 30+ minutes,
• Finally do a big dry hop.

I was doing 2.5gal batches trying to get this dialed in. I went with 15 - 1oz, 10 - 1oz, 5 - 1oz, hop stand - 2oz, dry hop - 2oz all with a mix of Citra (12% AA) and Mosaic (12.3% AA), turned out amazing. I also built up my water from RO and added gypsum (150 ppm sulfate) and calcium chloride (50 ppm chloride).

Hang in there, took me a lot of disappointing batches but I finally did it, you'll get there too.

 

[bwidner]

Not to necro a thread, however taking in multiple suggestions, I think I have almost dialed it in. Stopped putting anything in until 20 minutes or less of boil, did a 3oz hopstand, and also used half RO water with some gypsum(along with the normal dry hopping). First beer for this batch I had yesterday, great hop aroma, right in line with what you would expect from a good craft hoppy pale ale, more hop flavor than I have had in any other batch as well.
Thanks for all the help everyone.
Next batch which I am brewing this weekend I am full on building my water profile using bru'n water and hoping that will get me the hoppy goodness I am looking for

 

[m00ps]

Its threads like these that made me want to write an article for the front page on techniques Ive picked up on a quest for that pungent commercial hop character. Currently trying to get someone to proofread and figure out how to submit it for consideration

 

[slym2none]

Proofread just for basic errors sake, or for editorial content?

 

[m00ps]

Um either I guess. Probably could use more input and then I can try getting it to be reviewed by the admins. I still need to add 3 pics Im taking tonight

I turned it into a googledocs since I cant upload a .docx file
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1DHdW-a1DLgmWFfnlkHQ0esCF5e6Hkx0RyBHzsb9mCVU

any help is definitely appreciated. Ive already come across 3 threads like this since this morning so I think it really could provide some useful info if its done right.

 

[UpsetsBrewing]

Yep, treat the water. Bottom line with hop issues in my experience. And also, m00ps, very well written sir!