NOT boiling DME for full 60min

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Hey,

Just tried an extract recipe for a high gravity (1.074) hoppy amber ale, and the kit instructions directed me to boil 6.6lbs of LME for the full 60min, but also another 3lbs of DME with only 15min left in the boil.

I'm scratching my head on this one...can anyone offer any insight into the reasoning as to why one would follow this type of schedule? Why hold off on adding the DME for 45min? What are the benefits?

Thanks.
 
It's late extract addition, lots to look for on here. Not sure that it's needed for DME though, primarily for LME where you'll get more caramelzation or "burnt wort" if it congeals on the bottom and burns. When adding the DME or LME make sure it's thoroughly stirred in/dissolved.

EDIT: The LME might contain hops which you need for bittering during the 60 min, DME won't contain any hops that I know of.

:mug:
 
The benefits are less darkening of the wort, and better hops utilization. My preference is to add at least half of the fermentables (DME, LME or sugar) at flame out. I've noticed a less "boiled extract" taste in beer when the bulk of the extract was added late. I prefer flame out over 15 minutes, because that much extract can stop the boil. Plus, the extract has already been processed so it doesn't need to be boiled anyway.
 
Thanks for the replies guys. The DME was not hopped...just regular light Pilsner DME. Interesting comments.

I'm interested to see the impact on the flavor and body...my one complaint about extract brews is that they tend to come out a tad "thin". Now I just have sit and wait a month.
 
Wow, I've never heard of that before, I didn't think it was possible. Now I'm curious to know how that works.

I'm pretty sure he meant LME but who knows?! :D

Thanks for the replies guys. The DME was not hopped...just regular light Pilsner DME. Interesting comments.

I'm interested to see the impact on the flavor and body...my one complaint about extract brews is that they tend to come out a tad "thin". Now I just have sit and wait a month.

When I was using LME I had probably < 33% success rate where I really liked my beer. DME over 75% but AG 100%. I think fermentation temp controlling was my main problem with my extract, I think that was my #1 problem until I got more experience.
 
my one complaint about extract brews is that they tend to come out a tad "thin"

Are you steeping any grains for this recipe, if so you should add some carapils to the recipe, this will impart no flavour but will add body to the final beer.
 
Are you steeping any grains for this recipe, if so you should add some carapils to the recipe, this will impart no flavour but will add body to the final beer.


Well, this recipe only called for steeping 5oz of Crystal 40L. My last brew (AHS Bavarian Wheat) was a mini-mash (2.5lbs of grain, I think), and that surprisingly came out kinda thin.

Next time, I think I'm going to do my own recipe and will include carapils to see the effects. Thanks for the tip.

Cheers!
 
Thanks for the replies guys. The DME was not hopped...just regular light Pilsner DME. Interesting comments.


The fact that this is a pilsner DME probably explains the late addition. It is most likely to keep the wort from darkening too much like Yooper said. The main reason for using a pilsner DME in an amber would be to keep it light, since it is a few degrees lighter than light DME.
 
plus a late addition will get a little more hop utilization, assuming a partial boil.

original post did state it was a 'hoppy amber ale'.

15 min boil ensures the DME is sanitized.
 
DME has already been boiled. No need to do it again for the full 60 min or longer. When I used DME (not very often, being an ag brewer), I always do the late addition.
 
The benefits are less darkening of the wort, and better hops utilization. My preference is to add at least half of the fermentables (DME, LME or sugar) at flame out. I've noticed a less "boiled extract" taste in beer when the bulk of the extract was added late. I prefer flame out over 15 minutes, because that much extract can stop the boil. Plus, the extract has already been processed so it doesn't need to be boiled anyway.

Do you add the bulk of your DME 15 minutes before the end of the boil? Or at flame out? Sorry just a little confused.
 
I've done plenty of partial mashes and added about 3lbs to 5lbs of dry malt extract to last 15 min to boost ABV, I get the best from my hops and keep the color where I want. (on the light side) but I even do it on my jet black porters and stouts. they just come out a bit "fresher tasting". My smoked Imperial porter was done this way and a mini maglight didn't shine light through a standard pint... but tasted just as good as a similar all grain. no extract "twang".
 
Do you add the bulk of your DME 15 minutes before the end of the boil? Or at flame out? Sorry just a little confused.

I'm a fan of adding it at flame out. At 15 minutes, especially if you're adding late hops, you could stop the boil and then have to wait for it to boil again. If you add it at flame out, no worries.

The extract doesn't have to boil- it's already been processed by the manufacturer. If you think it should be pasteurized, at flame out is still way over pasteurization temperature. (I pasteurize milk at 160 for 15 seconds).
 
I'm a fan of adding it at flame out. At 15 minutes, especially if you're adding late hops, you could stop the boil and then have to wait for it to boil again. If you add it at flame out, no worries.

The extract doesn't have to boil- it's already been processed by the manufacturer. If you think it should be pasteurized, at flame out is still way over pasteurization temperature. (I pasteurize milk at 160 for 15 seconds).

Thats what I thought I just got a little confused by your earlier post... one to many brews last night.
 
I'm a fan of adding it at flame out. At 15 minutes, especially if you're adding late hops, you could stop the boil and then have to wait for it to boil again. If you add it at flame out, no worries.

The extract doesn't have to boil- it's already been processed by the manufacturer. If you think it should be pasteurized, at flame out is still way over pasteurization temperature. (I pasteurize milk at 160 for 15 seconds).

Another question. When doing an extract batch do you prefer adding 1 lb of the extract at the beginning of the boil and the remainder at flame out. Or simply boil what came from the steeping grains and add all the extract at flame out? I thought some extract had to be added for proper utilization? Just wondering what your take is...
 
Another question. When doing an extract batch do you prefer adding 1 lb of the extract at the beginning of the boil and the remainder at flame out. Or simply boil what came from the steeping grains and add all the extract at flame out? I thought some extract had to be added for proper utilization? Just wondering what your take is...

I don't have the link handy but I asked this a while back. Hops just need water for proper utilization.

When I was doing extract I'd split 50/50 for boil/flameout. Hindsight, I'd probably only do all LME near flameout but I don't imagine I'll ever brew with LME again. Best of luck. :mug:
 
I don't have the link handy but I asked this a while back. Hops just need water for proper utilization.

When I was doing extract I'd split 50/50 for boil/flameout. Hindsight, I'd probably only do all LME near flameout but I don't imagine I'll ever brew with LME again. Best of luck. :mug:

Thanks... I wish I could get away from extract but apartment living is kinda hard for all grain although I am tempted to dry DeathBrewer's stove top method. I think next time I will add all my extract at the end. I suppose i will need to adjust my hop addition to not over bitter them. Isn't there a chart/program for that.
 
Thanks... I wish I could get away from extract but apartment living is kinda hard for all grain although I am tempted to dry DeathBrewer's stove top method. I think next time I will add all my extract at the end. I suppose i will need to adjust my hop addition to not over bitter them. Isn't there a chart/program for that.

Or you could go with DME, I always liked my beers made with DME, just a bit more expensive.
 
I used all DME on my last batch adding 2 lbs at the beginning of the boil and 3 lbs at flame out. My others have all had LME, looking foward to having this all DME batch of saphir pils.
 
Another question. When doing an extract batch do you prefer adding 1 lb of the extract at the beginning of the boil and the remainder at flame out. Or simply boil what came from the steeping grains and add all the extract at flame out? I thought some extract had to be added for proper utilization? Just wondering what your take is...

What I started doing was trying to sort of approximate the boil gravity of the AG batch with an extract batch. So, for a 2.5 gallon boil (instead of the 6.25 gallon boil of the AG version), I would use software to figure how much extract to have in for the whole boil and how much to add at the end. In lieu of that, a 50/50 split is probably just fine.
 
Because of equipment limitations, all but my lightest beers are partial mashes. When I first began brewing, everything went into the pot at the very beginning of boil, because I believed the higher boiling temperatures of the higher-gravity solutions would give better hop utilization. However, all my brews wound up tasting and looking rather alike - strong caramel flavors with an amber color, no matter how much I backed off on the use of darker malts. There was also a sharp undertaste, a sort of mintiness that seemed to come from the hops and was present regardless of the hop varieties used.
Finally, I read here about caramelization and oxidization of the sugars during the boil. It made sense that the higher-temperature boils of a high-gravity solution would caramelize a disproportionate amount of the sugars in the wort. I found that boiling only the sparge liquor from my partial mash at near-final volumes and then adding extracts and sugars for only the last 10 minutes of the boil resulted in the complete elimination of the excessive caramel taste and a much lighter-colored beer. However the brews were still slightly darker than expected, and the sharp, minty "whang" remained.

This second off-flavor and color appears to come from prolonged contact with the boiled hops, which I had been leaving in the wort for duration of the primary fermentation. With my last few brews, I've tried to fish out as much of the spent hop flowers as possible with a strainer, which seems to have completely eliminated the second, sharp off-taste and has finally given me the colors I expect based on the ingredients used. When using hop pellets, I now achieve the same effect by racking to the secondary as soon as feasible, within two or three days.

So the lessons here would be to (1) boil at as low a gravity and high a volume as reasonable, adding only a small portion of your extract if doing an all-extract brew and (2) don't allow the fermenting wort to remain in contact with boiled, spent hops for any longer than necessary.
 
Can someone explain to the new why we boil at all, don't freak out yet. I've been brewing for 2 hrs now, made 20 or so batches and I still consider myself new. There's alot to learn here. I'm going to try the idea I read here about adding extract at flame-out, makes sense. That lead me to think of my opening question. Tell me what you guys think.

Sent from my iPod touch using HB Talk
 
Yooper said:
I'm a fan of adding it at flame out. At 15 minutes, especially if you're adding late hops, you could stop the boil and then have to wait for it to boil again. If you add it at flame out, no worries.

The extract doesn't have to boil- it's already been processed by the manufacturer. If you think it should be pasteurized, at flame out is still way over pasteurization temperature. (I pasteurize milk at 160 for 15 seconds).

Can someone explain to the new guy(me) why we boil the wort at all ? Been brewing for 2 hrs, made 20 batches or so. Made alot of good brew, I have about ten that are my own recipes, but for the life of me and my curiosity I've always wanted to do a batch not going over an acceptable pasteurization temp of say 175? Thoughts ?

Thanks Mike

Sent from my iPod touch using HB Talk
 
I've often wondered about doing an entire batch w/o boiling. Heat at let's say 175. I like the idea of adding the extract at flame out, i've always wondered about that. Really why do we boil, why is 212 so magic.

thoughtful thoughts ?

Thanks Mike
 
Isn't boiling needed to achieve the hot break? Is the hot break not so important? Sorry for the complete novice question, I am still trying to get a firm grasp of the process. I am planning on making a batch with 3.3 lbs wheat lme (one can), 3.3 extra light lme and 3 lbs extra light dme. What order would you add the ingredients?

Thanks
Jeremy
 
With regard to the late addition/15 min addition of extract. I prefer to add my final extract at 15 minutes, or somewhere in that ball park. I turn my flame off, add the extract, then relight and bring back to boil get the added proteins to break. Your temp never drops far enough to stop your hop utilization, you don't burn it on the bottom of the pot, and you still maintain your exact time schedule for your hops, thus not destroying any aroma additions. Then you are not flaming out at your 1hr limit and spending another 10-15 getting your extract dissolved with no hot break. You want the hot break to remove the proteins from the wort and give you a clearer beer, thus the reason I do the 15 addition and reheat to a boil. Conversely don't forget to try to get a rapid and strong cold break as well. Chill haze is lame!
 
Isn't boiling needed to achieve the hot break? Is the hot break not so important? Sorry for the complete novice question, I am still trying to get a firm grasp of the process. I am planning on making a batch with 3.3 lbs wheat lme (one can), 3.3 extra light lme and 3 lbs extra light dme. What order would you add the ingredients?

Thanks
Jeremy

I would add the dme up front, as it's harder to dissolve in hot wort as opposed to cool water. There will be plenty of extract to get your hop utilization. Then add the LME all at the end. If you read my recent post here it explains how I do it at 15 min-ish as opposed to flame-out.
 
If your doing a grain bag you want to steep that @ 152 for 30-40 min. Then bring to boil and slowly add all extract while stirring. You didn't talk about your hops but at boil is when you put in your bittering hops also. Then aroma hops at about 50 min into the 60 min boil.

As far as the hot break I've never understood the science. I need to hear from someone with tons of experience to splain this to me.

I've done 20 or so batches and have many recipes of my own and always wanted one at 175-180 to see what happens.

Mike
 
If your doing a grain bag you want to steep that @ 152 for 30-40 min. Then bring to boil and slowly add all extract while stirring. You didn't talk about your hops but at boil is when you put in your bittering hops also. Then aroma hops at about 50 min into the 60 min boil.

As far as the hot break I've never understood the science. I need to hear from someone with tons of experience to splain this to me.

I've done 20 or so batches and have many recipes of my own and always wanted one at 175-180 to see what happens.

Mike

Hopefully this will help explain it
http://brianbeer.blogspot.com/2008/03/importance-of-full-wort-boil.html
 
Thanks for the reply.

Hop schedule I am planning on is as follows.

1 oz magnum (14%) @ 60min
1 oz perle (8%) @ 30min
1 oz Sterling (7.5%) @ 10min
1 oz perle & 1 oz sterling dry for 7 days

Est ABV 7.2%
Bitterness 38.2
Color 6.5
Est OG 1.074
Est FG 1.019

US 05 yeast

This is my first attempt at formulating my own recipe so I am sorta shooting from the hip. Trying a very loose interpatation of Abita's SOS.
http://abita.com/brews/sos.php

I know I should be using a lager yeast, but temp here in gulf coast are all over the place with some days still in the 80's. and I don't have a chest freezer yet. Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome

Thanks again.
Jeremy
 
Not entirely correct. You have to have some extract in the boil in order to correctly isomerize your hops. I always kinda figure about 1 lb per gallon. But for me on smaller recipes with around 6lbs of extract I just add it all in the beginning to simplify it. But if you want to do the late addition, put your DME in first. About 3 lbs of it for a 5 gal batch. And then put LME as the late addition rather than vis versa.
 
>.Not entirely correct. You have to have some extract in the boil in order to correctly isomerize your hops.

Is this true? I thought this was disproven, and that hops utilization was based on time of boil and volume of water - meaning utilization is higher in a 5 gallon boil than a 2.5 gallon boil.


I typically add my half my LME half way thriugh, and the rest in the last 10-15 minutes.


Next LME I brew I will try adding it all at flame out, just make sure I mix it well.

With DME I will mix it in during the boil.
 
I brewed two batches this past week. For the first one I added 1 lb DME at the beginning of the boil and 6 lbs LME w/ 15 minutes remaining. For the second I added 1 lb DME at beginning and 6 lbs LME at flameout. After various discussions in other threads about this I just decided to wing it and hope for the best. The first beer I just kept the hop additions the same as called for but for the second I reduced the 60 minute and 45 minute additions by 25%....we'll see how it turns out.
 
About using lower-than-boiling temperatures: This should work, but it'll take longer. The rate of isomerization, as with any chemical reaction, will roughly double for each 10 deg Celsius that you raise the temperature. So, if you lower the "boil" temperature to 195 deg Fahrenheit, you'll need to double the time to get the same degree of isomerization; 175, and you'll need to quadruple the time, etc. Of course, other factors, such as extraction rates, are in play here, too, so the results won't be exactly equivalent. It also makes me wonder if one could achieve a "quick boil" by carrying out the process inside of a large pressure cooker.
 
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