Not a noob - but need a consensus

[DD2000GT]

This might not be it since you did switch to DME, but it sounds like the extract twang. Try a full boil instead of adding your wort to water. Make sure your heat is off when you are mixing in your extract. This doesn't address the fact that your beer worked at your friends house though. Do you both have gas stoves (or vice versa).
Otherwise I would do a closed transfer system using your CO2 you could very well have mold in your air (although I don't think it would taste metallic).

Not sure if you are onto something or not - but my friends house has a gas stove and I have electric. I will say however, that I have boiled out in my backyard to see if it was something in my house and used a cajun cooker that time - and it still had the metalic off flavor. I like the idea to remove the pot from the heat when adding the extract - I have never done that.

Not sure I have the setup to do a full boil batch, unless I brew a 2 gallon batch or something.

One thing I can say since reading this forum over the last few days (I only found this site last Friday) - it appears I do not let my beer sit in the fermenter long enough based on general consensus. I see most let their brew sit in the primary for 2 weeks, then sometimes in the secondary a while longer. I usually rack my brew after a week. I use ale yeast and it just sits at ambient temps of my house (usually 78 degrees), so when the yeast is really active for the first few days I'll bet the temps in the carboy are closer to 80 degrees. So, my yeast works fast and usually starts to settle in a few days. I may need to think about keeping it cooler during fermentation - but I follow the creedo of RDWHAHB and icing it down every few hours did not fit easily into my 4 teenage household LOL. Now that a few are gone and I am finally getting back into home brewing after a 3 year hiatus, I can afford more time and energy to making better beer.

I hear letting the beer sit in the fermenter a bit longer lets the yeast remove some off flavors. I may let mine sit another week just to test. I am brewing a hefe-wizen right now - so no secondary, but I will rack to a secondary for another week on my next one as it will be an American Pale Ale. It has been in the primary for a week now and is clearing nicely.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[g-nub]

Yeah, you won't be able to do a full boil on the electric and if you cut the heat it will still be warm. Try moving it to a cool burner until the extract is mixed in.

As far as primary goes, I bust it out in 4 days (that is with a yeast starter or slurry from my local brewery). 2 weeks shouldn't hurt though if it will help you narrow down the problem.

 

[DaleJ]

... then pitch it into my 5 gallon carboy filled half way with cold water.
...

Dan
Is this water bottled as well?
When you brewed at your friends was this his tap water or bottled?

Also, When you do a gravity reading of the brew from the fermenter, is the metallic taste present or only after it has been in the conditioning (bottle/keg) for a while?

 

[Yooper]

The only thought I have is about ingredients. I had one beer I kegged that was a darker beer (ESB). It had an ever so slight metallic taste. One of the things I think I finally pinned down as responsible was a slight oxidation. Some darker grains taste a little metallic with a little oxidation. I take great care not to oxidize my beer, of course, but you can definitely taste a hint of metallic in that beer that used chocolate malt.

Is it possible that your beer is getting a little oxidized when bottling? Maybe some stirring or splashing?

 

[DD2000GT]

DaleJ - I have tried both tap and bottled water with no change. I believe I used tap at my friends house. I only taste the metallic taste after it has been conditioned, never after the fermenter.

YooperBrew - no splashing at bottling time. I read Charlie Papazian's books religously and per his instructions never splashed fermented beer. I do like to use steeping grains and primarily use Crystal 40 malts.

 

[JMack]

Have you used the same brewpot or metallic utensils for all of these batches, including at your friend's?

If so, is it possible that the pot, spoon, etc. is leaching ions to cause the taste?

Are you on a private well?

Was the bottled water a known national brand or something else? Any idea where it was bottled?

If you're on a well, it's possible the difference between the placement of your well and your friend's well explains the difference. As for the bottled water, well...bottled water isn't as tested or regulated as a lot of people think. There could have been metallic contaminants.

(Forgive the noob for chiming in here, but my background involves experience involves a lot of water chemistry)

 

[DD2000GT]

Have you used the same brewpot or metallic utensils for all of these batches, including at your friend's?

If so, is it possible that the pot, spoon, etc. is leaching ions to cause the taste?

(Forgive the noob for chiming in here, but my background involves experience involves a lot of water chemistry)

I cannot remember if I used the same stirrer, but I know I used my brew pot. My stirrer is plastic.

Dan

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

This is a really great trouble shooting thread! Well done everyone.

My thought centers on the fermentation temps. The off flavor could be a high concentration of fusel alcohol due to the high ferment temps.

Do you get worse hangovers from your homebrew than commercial beer?

What temperature is your friends house?

My other thought is high pH or to hot of steeping temp. If your pH is too high or the temp is too high during your steeping, you could potentially be pulling strange off flavors. You could get a pH checker for this and monitor your steeping temp so you don't raise above 170. pH checkers are cheap on Ebay (~$20) so that could be an option.

Good luck!

 

[tdavisii]

Take a sample to an extremly advanced brewer, if you know any, and i would be willing to bet they will gun down the problem in two seconds. Sometimes what i think is a problem or a specific taste is a whole different creature to someone who knows more then me and can identify it more exactly. Ive never had that paticular problem but i have made some sub par beer. The guy who owns my local homebrew shop helps me a great deal.

 

[DD2000GT]

Boerderij Kabouter: I don't think I have ever gotten a hangover off my homebrew, so I am not sure how to compare it to commercial brews (which I definately have gotten a hangover on). The temps at my friends house was actually a tad higher because at the time he was single and he is a tightwad by nature The steeping temps could definately be off, I know to pull them when the water temps get to about 160 degrees, but I never measured the temps - just pulled them when I started seeing the very first small bubbles appear in the brew pot. The PH could definately be an issue as I have never checked that - might need to get some strips.

tdavisii: I have done just as you suggested. Once to our local homebrew supply (but I am really not sure how much of an "expert" those guys were), and once to our local microbrewery. The LHBS guys said definately bacterial contamination (but I had absolutely no tale tell ring inside the bottle) but I seriously stepped up sanitation, and probably over-chlorination, after that. I also switched to iodipher (iodine) then as well to test. I live in Dallas, and the guys at that micro-brewery were really professionals. They are the ones that suggested the water (and why I used bottled spring water the next brew). They definately quilified it as a "metallic" flavor. They also told me to stop using my aluminum brew pot and any utensil that was made of metal in the boiling phase (why I now have a stainless brew pot and plastic stirrer). As a bonus, they took the time to get me some yeast slurry as well - really cool guys who are ALWAYS busy.

Dan

 

[Gregredic]

Eddie - that is an acurate list, except I "usually" use LME and just switched to DME to test. I pitch at about 78 degrees and use ale yeast. I have used liquid yeast for a test and it worked good but did not eliminate the off flavor. I did not use a starter - just pitched the liquid yeast after following the directions. As far as cooling the wort - my sink is by my kitchen window - I set the brew pot in the sink, use the work chiller with the faucet to get the temps down to around 80 degrees, then pitch it into my 5 gallon carboy filled half way with cold water.

Pi Kapp Beer Guy - I never siphon by mouth. I have an orange carboy cap that lets you run a tube from the top down to the bottom of the carboy, then a flexible hose to rack. Another opening in the orange cap lets you blow pressure into the carboy to start the siphon.

Dan

Why dont you try to do a full boil. You said that you were pitching your wort into a 5 gallon carboy filled half way with cold water. I would say that is probably where you are getting your metallic taste. When you were at your friends house, did you us his water, or did you use bottled water?

 

[Gregredic]

Try one of these 2 things...or better yet, try both:

1. Have someone else that brews beer to come over and use YOUR equipment, but let them use THEIR process. Be sure to let them do everything exactly how they normally do it. This way you can figure out if it is something like supplies or process.

2. Have someone come over to your house and you use THEIR equipment, but be sure to use YOUR process. See if you notice any change. If you do notice a difference, then obviously something you are using is causing the problem (ie. pot, santizer, etc.)

 

[bump8628]

[/QUOTE]Orphy: I have used Spring water - no help. I do steep grains, but put them in my brewpot with cold water and remove before it reaches a boil (about 20 minutes or so).[/QUOTE]

Do you remove the grains before the water reaches 170 degrees? Water hotter than 170 will remove tannins from the husk of the grain and create an astringent (possibly a metallic) taste.

 

[DD2000GT]

Gregredic: I suppose I could pull out my cajun cooker and try a full boil, but would need to buy a larger pot first. I would like to actually go over and watch an experienced brewer make a batch and observe and learn.

bump8628: I don't measure the temps before pulling the grains off. I would say there is a good chance it is steeping a little over 170 degrees. I can try a bactch without grains (kit) and see if the taste is still there.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[bump8628]

When I used to do extract with specialty grain brewing I would always steep my grains at 150-155 degrees for about thirty minutes.

 

[DD2000GT]

An update to this post:

I just cracked open my first glass of American IPA (kit from Williams Brewing) and the taste was AMAZING - really! It tasted every bit as good as a local brewpub IPA with absolutely no off flavors that ALL of my past home brews had. I would pay money for this and finally don't have any reservations about giving friends a glass of this homebrew. Based on the info I have read on this site, and the replies I got from this thread - here is what I did differently:

LARGER BOIL - I could only get three gallong to boil on my electric stove, but was at least a gallon more than before. I also removed the pot from the burner when adding the malt until it was fully desolved - I have never done that before. SPRING WATER - I have experimented with drinking water, but not Spring Water (I think). I got the water report for my tap water, and the only thing that stood out was a 8.3 PH. I figured I would try Spring Water to keep some of the minerals. STAR SAN - I always used common bleach for sanitizing, and I don't think I was rinsing as well as I should have based on the things I have heard here. Not sure why I have not discovered this product before! FRESH INGREDIENTS - I have always bought from my LHBS and this is the first mail order kit I have used. I could tell instantly that the ingredients were much fresher on the Williams kit by smell and look. I do prefer to support the local guys, but the ingredients need to be fresh. LIQUID YEAST - I have used this before, but only a few times. I think I am sold on the quality liquid yeast gives the beer. FERMENTED COOLER - I usually just set the fermenter in a dark corner at room temps (78 degrees, I live in Texas). I put it in a large tub of water and put a white t-shirt over it and set it under a fan. This reduced the fermetation temps to about 70-72 degrees.

Not sure which process or combination did the trick - but that annoying house flavor that all of my previous home brews had is finally GONE! Thanks guys for all your help and suggestions, this is the type of beer I have always wanted to make. And by the way - you CAN make excellent extract only beers! I was beginning to think it wasn't possible until I found this site.

Dan

 

[WBC]

From what you have posted I can see that you have a few things you have changed. If you really want to keep making excellent beer then you need to do the following things.

1. Buy a larger SS pot so you can do full boils. Use a cajun burner.
   
2. Always cool quickly after the boil. (chiller)
   
3. Stop using bleach and use Starsan.
   
4. Use good sanitary practices. Read all you can on this.
   
5. Always use the freshest ingredients. This means you might have to buy online.
   
6. Never mix tap water with finished beer as it can contaminate. Always boil and cool water that is to be mixed to dilute a finished beer.
   
7. Use Five Star 5.2 to maintain PH when mashing (All Grain or partial grain) if the mash PH is out of range. Use PH test strips or chemical test on the wort not the water.
   
8. Ferment at the required temperature range (very important). Check your yeast package for this information or online.
   
9. Make yeast starters when using liquid yeast.

The above is what I have been doing for years and I do not get off tastes at all.

 

[Revvy]

WOW...How did I miss this amazing thread?

This should be stickied because it is a great example of trouble shooting...and the final solution as outlined by WBC should be known to da noobs!!!

Good job...I'm just sad that I didn't get to play, but glad that DD2000GT now has a great batch of beer.

 

[IrregularPulse]

Very informative thread. i have been having similar off flavors and my last batch i integrated fermentation temp control in a fridge (Force carbing now haven't tasted), and next batch will integrate bottled spring water. Between these two I hope to find my culprit.