NoSparge -> Sparge = Affect on gravity?

[HemanBrew]

Hi Im a former biab user and just now I have updated my system with Braumeister 10 litre version.
I have a question about the affect of sparge and effiency.

So, I have done one mash with 2.8kg of malts and 12 l of water... and I used no-sparge.
With this the mash-effiency was 59%,
Preboil volume was 9,9 litres
and Preboil gravity was 1.050.

So if I would mash with the same 2.8kg of malts and 12l of water.... AND sparge it with additional water, what would happen?
I know the effiency would increase.
I know the preboil volume would increase.
BUT would the Preboil gravity actually be less?

So If I aim for high Preboil gravity, and dont care so much about volumes, is the nosparge actually better than sparge?
(The mash water has to be fixed to 12 litres and 2,8 is the max amount of grains that can fit to the Braumeister 10l.)

 

[McMullan]

Whenever I do a full volume mash on my BM pre boil gravity is always less than expected. A little extra base malt compensates for the drop in efficiency. I prefer rinsing the grains. It doesn’t really take much more effort than doing a full volume mash, IMO.

 

[HemanBrew]

A little extra base malt compensates for the drop in efficiency. I prefer rinsing the grains.

Hi. In my case the 2,8Kg of malt is the maxium for BM10 so adding more malt isnt really an option.
And if I rinse, wont the Preboil gravity go down?

If I could use 10 litres of water for mash and 2 for sparge it would give me better numbers, but with BM10 its instructed to start with 12 litres.

 

[McMullan]

My total volume water doesn’t change full volume vs sparged/rinsed for a given recipe. I hit my expected pre boil gravity and get higher mash efficiency (about 78%) when the grains get rinsed. Are you using brewing software, e.g., BeerSmith?

Edit: Speidel’s recommended procedure is just a guide. You can tweak things to change the outcome. Don’t be afraid to experiment.

 

[DuncB]

This chart might help

 

[HemanBrew]

Are you using brewing software, e.g., BeerSmith?

Edit: Speidel’s recommended procedure is just a guide. You can tweak things to change the outcome. Don’t be afraid to experiment.

Yes I use BrewFather.

I just havnt seen anywhere that you could start with less than 12 litres... but maybe I´ll check that my self.
Or If anybody knows the answer already..?

 

[McMullan]

Ideally, your software already has a BM10 equipment profile. Otherwise you need to figure one out. Regardless of the minimum mash liquor volume, which is probably 11-12L, a bigger rinse volume can be used. IIRC Speidel procedure doesn’t include a sparge step, for convenience, but you can play around with one.

 

[HemanBrew]

Ideally, your software already has a BM10 equipment profile. Regardless of the minimum mash liquor volume, which is probably 11-12L, a bigger rinse volume can be used.

It has and the minium is that 12L.
So if I use that (as I did) and rinse after that with spargewater doesnt it lower the overall gravity? Or does rinsing mean something else in this?

 

[McMullan]

It has and the minium is that 12L.
So if I use that (as I did) and rinse after that with spargewater doesnt it lower the overall gravity? Or does rinsing mean something else in this?

Not necessarily, you might end up with more first/pre boil wort at a higher gravity. Obviously, if your current mash efficiency remains the same, that's a different story, but I'd say there's definitely scope to increase your mash efficiency. Try a 12L mash then sparge/rinse with 3-4L. I'm not sure if the BM10 is equivalent to 1/2 a BM20, but in my BM20 I often mash-in 25L then sparge/rinse 8, 10 or even 12L sometimes. What's the total volume of the BM10? I'm sure it's capable of handling 15-16L.

Edit: I'm assuming you're doing a standard 60min mash, which can always be extended to 90min, if things aren't quite optimised at the moment.

 

[tracer bullet]

You're on the right track for how you're thinking about things. So that's a good start. I've got an Anvil Foundry 6.5 gallon but similar idea.

I take my final desired volume, add the amount of water I'll boil off, add the amount of water the grains will absorb (every 8 to 10 lbs will keep a gallon of water), and then that's how much can go into my mash & sparge. From there I'll decide how much goes into each. I've found that if I sparge I tend to get +5 to 10% efficiency increase.

For a pale ale or ESB it works well. For a stout with a lot of extra grain and I'm shooting for a higher gravity, I'll have to go ahead and add extra sparge water and boil off longer accordingly.

Keep some things in mind - grains in the basket won't be exposed to all of your water, so the traditional "1.25 - 1.50 quarts per pound" will be hard to apply. You'd have to measure how much space is around and under the basket and subtract it. but even then, if you recirculate or "lift and lower" a bunch of times, you can get that dead space mixed in. A lot of Anvil owners will ditch the basket and just go with a false bottom and huge bag and see an efficiency increase due to the grain contacting extra water.

I think I know how your system works and that it's similar, hopefully this info applies and helps. Above all just find a method that works for you, determine your efficiency from it, and stick with it so you can predict your results in the future. That seems to be the most important things. 60% efficiency, 80%, whatever. Just as long as it's consistent and doesn't go from one to the other each batch.

 

[hotbeer]

So if I would mash with the same 2.8kg of malts and 12l of water.... AND sparge it with additional water, what would happen?

Assuming your mash produced the same SG as the first and you add more water, of course your SG will be lower.

You'll have to boil longer to get the desired gravity. Or you should go for a thicker mash and only use part of that 12 liters for mashing and the other for sparging. Perhaps you might get more SG for that total of 12L used, perhaps not.

Don't know what your equipment requires though. I'm just doing "primitive" stuff with make shift equipment.

 

[doug293cz]

If you mash with 12 L both times, and sparge one, but not the other, you will get more extract (sugar) out of the grain in the sparged batch.

• The sparged batch will have a higher pre-boil volume, but lower pre-boil SG
• If you boil to the same post-boil volume, the sparged batch will have a higher OG
• If you boil both to the same OG, the sparged batch will have a higher post-boil volume
• If you boil-off the same volume from both, the sparged batch will have a higher post-boil volume and lower OG
• If you boil to the same final volume for both, the sparged batch will have a higher OG

I plugged your weights, volumes and SG into my mash and sparge simulator and also got 59% mash efficiency, which means your measurements are self consistent (that's good.) But to end up with a pre-boil SG of 1.050, you conversion efficiency came in at only 79% (that's very low), meaning you left ~20% of the available extract (sugar) unconverted in the grain. Had you gotten 95% conversion efficiency, your pre-boil volume would have been ~1.059. A finer crush and/or longer mash can raise your conversion efficiency.

Your grain absorption rate came out to 0.75 L/kg.

Let's run some sims looking at no-sparge vs. sparge staying with your 79% conversion efficiency, and a 3 L sparge:

• Pre-boil volume: No-sparge: 9,9 L, sparged: 12.9 L
• Pre-boil SG: No-sparge: 1.050, sparged: 1.044
• Extract in wort: No-sparge: 1.285 kg, sparged: 1.486 kg
• Post-boil OG @ 2 L boil-off: No-sparge: 1.063, sparged: 1.053
• Post-boil OG @ 7.9 L post-boil volume: No-sparge: 1.063, sparged: 1.072

Brew on

 

[HemanBrew]

If you mash with 12 L both times, and sparge one, but not the other, you will get more extract (sugar) out of the grain in the sparged batch.

• The sparged batch will have a higher pre-boil volume, but lower pre-boil SG
• If you boil to the same post-boil volume, the sparged batch will have a higher OG
• If you boil both to the same OG, the sparged batch will have a higher post-boil volume
• If you boil-off the same volume from both, the sparged batch will have a higher post-boil volume and lower OG
• If you boil to the same final volume for both, the sparged batch will have a higher OG

I plugged your weights, volumes and SG into my mash and sparge simulator and also got 59% mash efficiency, which means your measurements are self consistent (that's good.) But to end up with a pre-boil SG of 1.050, you conversion efficiency came in at only 79% (that's very low), meaning you left ~20% of the available extract (sugar) unconverted in the grain. Had you gotten 95% conversion efficiency, your pre-boil volume would have been ~1.059. A finer crush and/or longer mash can raise your conversion efficiency.

Your grain absorption rate came out to 0.75 L/kg.

Let's run some sims looking at no-sparge vs. sparge staying with your 79% conversion efficiency, and a 3 L sparge:

• Pre-boil volume: No-sparge: 9,9 L, sparged: 12.9 L
• Pre-boil SG: No-sparge: 1.050, sparged: 1.044
• Extract in wort: No-sparge: 1.285 kg, sparged: 1.486 kg
• Post-boil OG @ 2 L boil-off: No-sparge: 1.063, sparged: 1.053
• Post-boil OG @ 7.9 L post-boil volume: No-sparge: 1.063, sparged: 1.072

Brew on

Thanks for this. A lot of wisdom to lurn from.
I will

 

[HemanBrew]

you conversion efficiency came in at only 79% (that's very low), meaning you left ~20% of the available extract (sugar) unconverted in the grain.

Can you help me to understand the difference between mash effiency and conversion effiency?

 

[DuncB]

@HemanBrew

This is a fairly good explanation.

https://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Efficiency

 

[doug293cz]

Can you help me to understand the difference between mash effiency and conversion effiency?

This might help. If you still have questions, just ask.

Brew on

 

[DuncB]

@doug293cz I shall enjoy reading that later. Thanks.

 

[Steveruch]

In my first BIAB I gave the bag a squeeze and got 1.055. In my second I gave the bag a squeeze and then did a sparge and ended up with 1.063. Both used the same amount of grain.