Efficiency mystery

[pvtpublic]

So, I had moved across town back in September, where I had excellent well water for brewing. I would preboil to remove excess carbonates, but I did not make any chemistry adjustments. That's due to not having the means to take readings, and the lack of water chemistry knowledge to go along with it. I was hitting 85% mash efficiency everytime, no matter the beer style. Producing some excellent beer.

Fast forward to now. I haven't changed a damn thing. My equipment is still the same. My ingredients are the same, process, temps, volumes, the works. The only difference is my source water. I no longer have access to well water, so I pick it up at the grocery store. Again, don't know the chemistry. I'm now getting 70% efficiency with all 5 batches I've brewed in the new digs.

I don't necessarily care that my mash efficiency is lower, but it's perplexing me. I've wrapped my mind around this and the only thing that comes to mind is this - does water make-up affect efficiency? If so, how?

 

[GoodTruble]

Just a guess, but acidity/pH level can effect efficiency.

 

[doug293cz]

So, I had moved across town back in September, where I had excellent well water for brewing. I would preboil to remove excess carbonates, but I did not make any chemistry adjustments. That's due to not having the means to take readings, and the lack of water chemistry knowledge to go along with it. I was hitting 85% mash efficiency everytime, no matter the beer style. Producing some excellent beer.

Fast forward to now. I haven't changed a damn thing. My equipment is still the same. My ingredients are the same, process, temps, volumes, the works. The only difference is my source water. I no longer have access to well water, so I pick it up at the grocery store. Again, don't know the chemistry. I'm now getting 70% efficiency with all 5 batches I've brewed in the new digs.

I don't necessarily care that my mash efficiency is lower, but it's perplexing me. I've wrapped my mind around this and the only thing that comes to mind is this - does water make-up affect efficiency? If so, how?

Yes, the mineral content of the water determines its alkalinity, and the alkalinity affects the pH of the mash. Note that the pH of the starting water does not matter. If the mash pH is very far outside of the range of about 5.2 to 5.7, then the enzymes don't work as well (or if the mash pH is really far off, the enzymes don't work at all.) If the enzymes are inhibited, then conversion of the starch to sugar will be slowed down, and it will take significantly longer for conversion to finish. In these cases you would need to mash significantly longer to get (near) full conversion. If you mash for the same time as you did before, your efficiency will be lower.

You will need to get into water chemistry to get your efficiency back to where it was. Either get a complete mineral profile from your water company, or send a sample to Wards lab for their brewing water analysis. You can then use water adjustment software (Brun'Water, Brewer's Friend, etc.) to adjust the mineral content of your water to give you a good mash pH based on your grain bill. The other option is to get RO (~0 mineral) water from a store water dispenser, and add all of the required minerals so that you will have an acceptable mash pH.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Just a guess, but acidity/pH level can effect efficiency.

As I stated previously, it is the alkalinity of the starting water that affects mash pH, not the starting water's pH. I know that sounds confusing if you don't have some understanding of chemistry, but that's the way it works.

Brew on

 

[GoodTruble]

As I stated, acidity/Ph level can effect efficiency.

Don't put additional words in my mouth and then say I'm wrong based on the words to you added.

 

[jambop]

As I stated previously, it is the alkalinity of the starting water that affects mash pH, not the starting water's pH. I know that sounds confusing if you don't have some understanding of chemistry, but that's the way it works.

Brew on

A simple test from Salifert for total alkalinity is easy to do and gives you a good idea what you are starting with. I am sure that if the water was analysed it would be a great benefit to know what the other ion concentrations are too . I have a report from my water provider giving the average concentrations of the ions I consider important and trust they are going to be close to what they state but I check the alkalinity regularly because it is easy to do.

 

[brewbama]

I have a question I did not see addressed: What was your mash pH from your previous home on avg and what is it now on avg? I agree with the above that mash pH sets the conditions for efficient enzyme activity.

If you start with ‘purified’ water from your grocery, it is probably reverse osmosis (RO) water. In that case it probably has ~10 +/- total dissolved solids (TDS). Of course you have no idea the makeup of those solids but the number is so low it’s negligible. If you start with distilled water from your grocery you are probably at zero TDS. Both probably have alkalinity less than 35. I would treat both as a blank slate.

Given a blank slate, I follow AJ DeLange‘s A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer advice (no spreadsheet or gram scale required). This simple approach works every time for me. My comments in [ ]. In a nutshell:

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist. [or your acid of choice only if warranted by an pH reading. I don’t find acid or sauermalz necessary].

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

[Take a pH reading and adjust as required targeting 5.3+/- .2 at room temp.]

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, acidity is not the same as alkalinity. My well RA is roughly 150ppm even with a pH around 6...

Cheers!

 

[doug293cz]

As I stated, acidity/Ph level can effect efficiency.

Don't put additional words in my mouth and then say I'm wrong based on the words to you added.

Are you talking mash pH or source water pH?

Brew on

 

[GoodTruble]

fwiw, acidity is not the same as alkalinity. My well RA is roughly 150ppm even with a pH around 6...

Cheers!

True. But a change in water can impact acidity and efficiency (though not clear if that is the only answer here).

 

[hotbeer]

You are certain your grain crush is the same?

 

[IslandLizard]

I no longer have access to well water, so I pick it up at the grocery store.

Is that RO water coming from of a machine or sold in jugs? If so and the filters work as they should, that would be a blank slate mineral-wise.
You wouldn't need a water test for that. Although it's advised to use a (fairly cheap) TDS meter to make sure the filters work and mineral content is close to 0.

 

[pvtpublic]

I have to admit, and I'm sure you all will roll your eyes, but I haven't monitored my pH.

As far as the water I get from the store, it's a Hylyte water dispenser. They advertise it as having certain minerals and having a pH of 8.8.

 

[jambop]

I have to admit, and I'm sure you all will roll your eyes, but I haven't monitored my pH.

As far as the water I get from the store, it's a Hylyte water dispenser. They advertise it as having certain minerals and having a pH of 8.8.

I don't know what happens in the US but if you are going to consume something you should have some consumers right which should tell you broadly speaking what is in that product. Notwithstanding that you can check alkalinity very easily with a test kit from Salifert . It is easy to use and cheap and using it should be able to get your brew liquor alkalinity in the correct area for any beer you want to make.

 

[doug293cz]

I have to admit, and I'm sure you all will roll your eyes, but I haven't monitored my pH.

As far as the water I get from the store, it's a Hylyte water dispenser. They advertise it as having certain minerals and having a pH of 8.8.

Do they specify which minerals, and their concentrations? And again, the starting water's pH is meaningless for brewing.

Brew on

 

[pvtpublic]

I don't know what happens in the US but if you are going to consume something you should have some consumers right which should tell you broadly speaking what is in that product. Notwithstanding that you can check alkalinity very easily with a test kit from Salifert . It is easy to use and cheap and using it should be able to get your brew liquor alkalinity in the correct area for any beer you want to make.

Do they specify which minerals, and their concentrations? And again, the starting water's pH is meaningless for brewing.

Brew on

I haven't gotten that far yet, but I'll be looking into it this weekend. I'll post any response that I get. The dispenser does specify what they put in, but no quantities.

 

[IslandLizard]

Do they specify which minerals, and their concentrations? And again, the starting water's pH is meaningless for brewing.

Searches have not yielded much concrete data on minerals or quantities, but there's a thread on Hylyte water here on HBT:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/minerals-in-water.679600/
In that thread, the OP had emailed Hylyte. He posted their response:

due to the our proprietary method of remineralization as it would happen in nature, the resulting mineralization levels are variable. All resulting minerals are reintroduced in trace amounts.

It's not clear where this information, he also posted, came from:

and the minerals are
Quartz
Calcium Carbonate
Magnesium Dioxide
Sodium Chloride
Copper
Zinc
Iron

I believe the PH is 8.8.

Take from that what you need. Or want.

 

[day_trippr]

Quartz?

 

[doug293cz]

Copper?
Iron????
Zinc?

I know iron over about 0.1 ppm is bad for brewing, so knowing how much iron they add is quite important. If they won't provide the information, I wouldn't use the water for beer.

Brew on