New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Noob_Brewer]

just curious as I have been looking back over my recipes for these NEIPAs. I typically have done a 60minute battering charge (columbus or warrior) and then either a 10min or 5min boil with either the bittering hop or a combination of the main hops used in WP and dry hopping. Ive noticed that some don't do this and considering just skipping the 5-10min boil hop additions all together and just upping the 60min hop charge a little more to make up for the lost IBUs. So the question is: how many are using the 5-10min boil hop additions vs ditching it all together in favor of upping the 60min boil addition and WP additions a little? Thoughts

 

[stickyfinger]

I don't even know what "the 5-10 min boil hop addition" is. do you mean what people used to do as a sort of pre-flameout addition right before cutting heat? seems analogous to the dumbest shot in basketball, just inside the 3-point line. ha ha in other words, i don't think most people do this at all any more. 60 minute if desired for bittering and then whirlpool for flavor. i like to drop the wort temp before adding the whirlpool hops so i can control bitterness a little better with just the 60-min. addition.

just curious as I have been looking back over my recipes for these NEIPAs. I typically have done a 60minute battering charge (columbus or warrior) and then either a 10min or 5min boil with either the bittering hop or a combination of the main hops used in WP and dry hopping. Ive noticed that some don't do this and considering just skipping the 5-10min boil hop additions all together and just upping the 60min hop charge a little more to make up for the lost IBUs. So the question is: how many are using the 5-10min boil hop additions vs ditching it all together in favor of upping the 60min boil addition and WP additions a little? Thoughts

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I don't even know what "the 5-10 min boil hop addition" is. do you mean what people used to do as a sort of pre-flameout addition right before cutting heat? seems analogous to the dumbest shot in basketball, just inside the 3-point line. ha ha in other words, i don't think most people do this at all any more. 60 minute if desired for bittering and then whirlpool for flavor. i like to drop the wort temp before adding the whirlpool hops so i can control bitterness a little better with just the 60-min. addition.

LOL nice analogy with basketball. But yes I was referring to a late boil addition at 5-10min left. Ive never done a flameout addition either because my chiller will take my wort from boiling down to 150 in about 2minutes. I like to get my wort to WP temps like you it seems. So for me Im not sure what the flameout addition would do other than getting all dunked up in my immersion chiller. Was just thinking of what a late boil or flameout addition is really adding besides some IBUs.

This is one of those things where Im saying to myself "what the heck is this addition for anyways?"

 

[Fergal]

Missed that unfortunately. I absolutely love Verdant, they make some phenomenal beers and are easily up there with Other Half. Some interesting stuff there. I really thought their Chloride would be higher as I saw a video before saying they use a stout profile for their water. This was a couple of years ago so probably has changed.

Sorry should have clarified - that was Basquelands water profile for the beer they were brewing. Verdant were on the call answering and asking questions and confirming if they had the same processes. I was really surprised they didn't add any Sulfate at all though.

 

[TBryerton]

I don't even know what "the 5-10 min boil hop addition" is. do you mean what people used to do as a sort of pre-flameout addition right before cutting heat? seems analogous to the dumbest shot in basketball, just inside the 3-point line. ha ha in other words, i don't think most people do this at all any more. 60 minute if desired for bittering and then whirlpool for flavor. i like to drop the wort temp before adding the whirlpool hops so i can control bitterness a little better with just the 60-min. addition.

And yet the brewery with the highest demand for ipa’s still uses a high % of kettle hops....

 

[stickyfinger]

who dat?

ho
And yet the brewery with the highest demand for ipa’s still uses a high % of kettle hops....

 

[Dgallo]

And yet the brewery with the highest demand for ipa’s still uses a high % of kettle hops....

Treehouse refers to their whirlpool as kettle additions. All hot side hops they call kettle additions. I do agree they are using more hot side hops than most breweries are using now

 

[skleice]

just curious as I have been looking back over my recipes for these NEIPAs. I typically have done a 60minute battering charge (columbus or warrior) and then either a 10min or 5min boil with either the bittering hop or a combination of the main hops used in WP and dry hopping. Ive noticed that some don't do this and considering just skipping the 5-10min boil hop additions all together and just upping the 60min hop charge a little more to make up for the lost IBUs. So the question is: how many are using the 5-10min boil hop additions vs ditching it all together in favor of upping the 60min boil addition and WP additions a little? Thoughts

I like doing some very small additions at 60, 10 and flameout before dropping temps for a whirlpool. I feel like I get more of that hop saturation thang. I've been doing that for the last few brews and prefer it over just 60 + WP.

 

[couchsending]

Does anyone have a super amazing milkshake ipa recipe? I'd like to do one in the next month.

Has anyone ever had an amazing Milkshake IPA? Admittedly I’ve never had the Tired Hands versions but every other one I’ve had has been atrocious.

 

[stickyfinger]

maybe. i made one with all of the other parameters except the fruit addition and i loved it, like 2 years ago. we'll see. i also wish i could try the tired hands ones. i'm guessing they would be really good. it is a beer for people with a sweet tooth like me though, lol. something tells me you're not a sweet tooth kind of guy.

Has anyone ever had an amazing Milkshake IPA? Admittedly I’ve never had the Tired Hands versions but every other one I’ve had has been atrocious.

 

[Dgallo]

Has anyone ever had an amazing Milkshake IPA? Admittedly I’ve never had the Tired Hands versions but every other one I’ve had has been atrocious.

Yes. Ingenious out of TX has some amazing milkshake style ipas. The best I’ve had from them was Double Peach Cobbler Fro Yo. Also a new brewery out of New York, Beer Tree puts out a Pineapple creamsicle series of a single, double, and triple milkshake ipa. The double is really good and the triples too much

 

[couchsending]

maybe. i made one with all of the other parameters except the fruit addition and i loved it, like 2 years ago. we'll see. i also wish i could try the tired hands ones. i'm guessing they would be really good. it is a beer for people with a sweet tooth like me though, lol. something tells me you're not a sweet tooth kind of guy.

It’s funny I totally have a sweet tooth but I don’t really like sweet beer. Or at least beer that’s really heavy on the palate. I can handle thicker beers but as long as they’re not cloying. That’s not even the issue I’ve had with the “milkshake” IPAs I’ve had. They just al seem really poorly constructed. Everything seems out of place.

 

[TBryerton]

Treehouse refers to their whirlpool as kettle additions. All hot side hops they call kettle additions. I do agree they are using more hot side hops than most breweries are using now

Do you have a reference to this? I thought Nate specifically said that wasn’t the case

 

[Dgallo]

Do you have a reference to this? I thought Nate specifically said that wasn’t the case

If you’ve ever read through their beer descriptions on their page, they mention kettle additions and dryhopping, but never whirlpool addition even though you know they are whirlpooling. Here is their king jjjulius description

 

[HopsAreGood]

I used to brew all of my iPas with only a small bittering charge, whirlpool and dry hops because that’s what the internet said was the way to go. The beers were always good but lacked something in the flavor department. I then came across some reliable people swearing by doing a pretty substantial addition at 10 minutes, tried it out, and have never looked backed. For my palette I feel there is a lot more flavor when I do this. I still shoot for a small bittering charge but add a 2-3 oz addition of flavor/aroma hops at 10. Whirlpool and dry hop only sounds cool but doesn’t translate in reality for me.

I’ve also played with layering additions at 20-15-10-5 etc...but can’t really tell a difference from just doing one at 10.

I also know of one local brewery that is extremely highly regarded, and they typically do 1 oz at 15, 1 oz at 5, 2 oz whirlpool, then 12-16 oz dry hop.

 

[stickyfinger]

i don't even know if i want to add any hops to the hot wort anymore. it's such a small impact compared with dry hops. i need to do another split batch and compare zero hop stand hops with 1 oz/gal hop stand hops and dry hops equal between the two. at this point i doubt i could tell the difference between them but that's what the test is for.

 

[stickyfinger]

huh, i really like thick beers that fill me up. maybe b/c i'm vegan so i don't get enough meat and fat in my diet. ha ha ha

It’s funny I totally have a sweet tooth but I don’t really like sweet beer. Or at least beer that’s really heavy on the palate. I can handle thicker beers but as long as they’re not cloying. That’s not even the issue I’ve had with the “milkshake” IPAs I’ve had. They just al seem really poorly constructed. Everything seems out of place.

 

[kevink]

Has anyone ever had an amazing Milkshake IPA? Admittedly I’ve never had the Tired Hands versions but every other one I’ve had has been atrocious.

I have, I have! What do I win? I live near TH and have had most of them. Some are amazing and some are meh. Every milkshake I have had from any other brewery has sucked beyond belief. I brewed 2 or 3 and my lychee milkshake was ridiculously awesome. They aren't easy to do (I do not claim to be any kind of milkshake expert).

 

[TBryerton]

If you’ve ever read through their beer descriptions on their page, they mention kettle additions and dryhopping, but never whirlpool addition even though you know they are whirlpooling. Here is their king jjjulius description View attachment 680074

Makes sense - good point. But this is what I was referring to:

 

[murphyslaw]

FWIW, Janish says late hop additions contribute significant eatery fruity and citrus flavors, beyond what you would get from dry hopping only. I don't think he addresses late vs whirlpool, but his conclusion was that if you're going for fruity, citrusy flavors, late additions can help you get there. As always, YMMV.

 

[Dgallo]

Makes sense - good point. But this is what I was referring to:

I’ve never seen that tweet before, def opens up a discussion. I wonder who writes the descriptions. It may be two different peoples perspective.

 

[kevink]

Makes sense - good point. But this is what I was referring to:

Can't they just be moving the wort to a different vessel before whirlpooling? For us, it doesn't really make a difference. Our BK can be our "other vessel" if we drop the temps.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

This is interesting for sure...I haven't had treehouse since I went up there in late summer of 2018 but I distinctly remember being very surprised at how soft/pillowy their beers were but also had a distinctly pleasant bitterness to them as well. Julius was great but not my favorite. I LOVED doppelgänger though. When I looked them up the IBUs for julius was in the 70s and Doppelgänger was 88 IBUs. That shocked me because at those high IBUs the perceived bitterness for me just wasn't that high. It was like those IBUs were "hidden". So this may support the fact that they do put more hop additions in the boil (late boil) AND then hit the dry hopping intensely. The description for treehouse doppelgänger reads: "intensely kettle and dry hopped to produce a pungent and flavorful Double IPA that is super pleasant to drink featuring tropical fruit, citrus, and stone fruit flavors."

So to build on my post from earlier asking if peeps still use a 5-10min boil addition, Im wondering if treehouse is boosting that late boil addition (which would boost those IBUs) and those late boil additions would carry over to the WP somewhat. Interesting for sure.

 

[HopsAreGood]

See my previous post. A 10 minute addition is like night and day if you haven’t been using one. DO NOT be afraid of calculated ibus within the last 15 minutes. They are perceived very different than the same calculated ibus from a 60 minute addition. If you haven’t done this try it for yourself and be your own judge.

Try 2-3 oz at 10, 2-3 WP, then whatever dry hop amount you are comfortable with.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

See my previous post. A 10 minute addition is like night and day if you haven’t been using one. DO NOT be afraid of calculated ibus within the last 15 minutes. They are perceived very different than the same calculated ibus from a 60 minute addition. If you haven’t done this try it for yourself and be your own judge.

LOL as I stated earlier, Ive been doing a 5 or 10min boil addition along with the WP hop additions. I just haven't done a brew without the 5-10min addition. I will say that I perceive my beers to definitely have an intense flavor for sure but my aroma needs more work which is likely due to my lower DH rates than lots here do.

 

[Rainy]

See my previous post. A 10 minute addition is like night and day if you haven’t been using one. DO NOT be afraid of calculated ibus within the last 15 minutes. They are perceived very different than the same calculated ibus from a 60 minute addition. If you haven’t done this try it for yourself and be your own judge.

Try 2-3 oz at 10, 2-3 WP, then whatever dry hop amount you are comfortable with.

That's really interesting. What are the time and temperature of your whirlpool?

I am wondering what the difference is in terms of isomerization of alpha acids and blow off of hop oil compounds between doing a split charge at 10min and a lower temperature whirlpool charge AND simply doing one charge at flame off.
I am guessing there's a lot of non-linear processes involved, so they must have different results.

From what I remember from a Master brewer's podcast and publication most of the isomerisation happens in the first 10min.
So the difference between a 60min and a 10min addition would be mainly the blow off of hop oil compounds, as isomerisation should be similar.

Anybody has any ideas or good scientific references about how quickly hop compounds dissolve in the wort during a whirlpool, i.e. when saturation is achieved and how this depends on temperature?

 

[HopsAreGood]

That's really interesting. What are the time and temperature of your whirlpool?

I am wondering what the difference is in terms of isomerization of alpha acids and blow off of hop oil compounds between doing a split charge at 10min and a lower temperature whirlpool charge and simply doing one charge at flame off.
I am guessing there's a lot of non-linear processes involved, so they must have different results.

From what I remember from a Master brewer's podcast and publication most of the isomerisation happens in the first 10min.
So the difference between a 60min and a 10min addition would be mainly the blow off of hop oil compounds, as isomerisation should be similar.

Anybody has any ideas or good scientific references about how quickly hop compounds dissolve in the wort during a whirlpool, i.e. when saturation is achieved and how this depends on temperature?

I won’t pretend to understand the exact science behind it, so perhaps it’s only anecdotal, but I did around 30 batches or so with only a small bittering charge, WP at 160-180, then dry hop. Since then I’ve done about 20 batches adding in the 10 minute addition and there’s just more flavor/overall hop saturation. There’s a thread on here somewhere (I’ll try to find it) where it’s discussed and the general consensus was that late kettle additions absolutely benefited the overall end result and made the finished beer less one note. It added complexity, flavor, depth, even if some of those precious oils were being lost.

 

[Dgallo]

@HopsAreGood i still typically use 10-20% of hops during boil with a small 20 or/and 10 minute addition. I’ve always felt that it brought depth and filled out the middle flavor. Just depends on the hops and flavor profiles. For my juice bombs, I don’t worry too much about boil additions but if I’m looking for resin/earth/dankness, those beers get more boil/flameout additions

 

[secretlevel]

On a related note, reading and listening to commercial brewers it sounds like more and more hops are being moved away from whirlpool and into Dry Hop. I remember reading that JC Trenault only left around 10% of the hops in whirlpool, rest go into dry hop.

From personal experience, whirlpool does add flavors, but they're just not as saturated as the dry hop. Has anyone tried removing their whirlpool additions completely?

 

[Dgallo]

On a related note, reading and listening to commercial brewers it sounds like more and more hops are being moved away from whirlpool and into Dry Hop. I remember reading that JC Trenault only left around 10% of the hops in whirlpool, rest go into dry hop.

From personal experience, whirlpool does add flavors, but they're just not as saturated as the dry hop. Has anyone tried removing their whirlpool additions completely?

2 years ago a did a side by side batch with the 10.5oz of hops in each. Each got .5oz of warrior at 60 mins and the it was 5 oz of Citra and 5 oz of mosaic.

Beer 1 added all the hops at 160*f whirlpool for 40 mins.

Beer 2 added the hops in a double dryhop with 2.5oz of Citra and mosaic with 5 days left to packaging and again with 3 days. I did not softcrash my beers at this point in my brewing.

Both beers were significantly missing something.

The whirlpool addition was obviously more bitter but had more upfront flavor and finished with bitterness but it seemed miss a strong hop flavor. Aroma was lighter

The dryhop only beer was less bitter and had more aroma on the noise but really only had flavor upfront and then it quickly faded to being bland. It was softer overall than the whirlpool version.

My take away from this is that some amount of hops are needed in each step to have a full flavored beer. I think I mentioned this in this thread recently but I’ve found that 10%-20% of hops in boil 30-40% in whirlpool and 50-60% in dryhop is where I feel I get the best final product. I do understand that that is more anecdotal than quantitative evidence but it certainly has worked great for me