New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[VirginiaHops1]

There's a difference between higher FG with some residual sugars(which aren't really that sweet) vs actual malt flavor, like munich or caramel sweetness or crackery/bready flavors from other malts. Maybe they just didn't think it had the 'fullness' it should and that's how they chose to word their critique. Or maybe they really were just talking out of their asses. I would take any critique with a grain of salt though, BJCP judge or not. Taste is subjective and everyone's palate is different.

 

[JohnConnor]

Is that Anthem or Ahtenum?

Sorry, Ahtenum. I did a couple dry hop experiments with Ahtenum is it was straight tropical/sun tan lotion. Kind of mild but really very pleasant.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Final gravity plays one of the biggest roles in building recipes, and how those recipes are perceived by the drinker. Most people have had that prototypical cloying hazy that finished at 1020 and has zero boil additions. However if it's a layered approach that we are taking with the hops, all of a sudden your 40 ibu boil addition isn't percieved nearly as bitter with all that residual sugar finishing at 1020.
With that being said I prefer a higher mash temp 154-156f mainly to enhance body/mouthfeel, as the residual sugar sweetness is heavily offset by my boil additions/dh/water chem etc.

Ok speaking of perceived bitterness, do you @Loud Brewing or anyone else here put any stock in the IBU/SG ratio? Seems that perceived bitterness is determined by multiple factors and not just SG alone ie mash temp seems to play a role. How do ya’ll monitor/use the IBU/SG ratio when developing NEIPAs if you use this metric at all?

 

[Dgallo]

Ok speaking of perceived bitterness, do you @Loud Brewing or anyone else here put any stock in the IBU/SG ratio? Seems that perceived bitterness is determined by multiple factors and not just SG alone ie mash temp seems to play a role. How do ya’ll monitor/use the IBU/SG ratio when developing NEIPAs if you use this metric at all?

I mean I care about the bu/gu ratio. I aim for .5 for NEIPA .8 - 1.0 for west coast ipas. Perception is something different but I’m a firm believer that the ratio should matter in recipe planning and based on your system and process

 

[marchuk96]

I mean I care about the bu/gu ratio. I aim for .5 for NEIPA .8 - 1.0 for west coast ipas. Perception is something different but I’m a firm believer that the ratio should matter in recipe planning and based on your system and process

Exactly...if you plan accordingly and formulate a sound recipe you really don't even need to care about that ...that ratio is only as good as a number...if you know your system and know your style and how u typically perform from grain to glass...it really a rough draft on what you end up with...its a potential calculated guess... does it account for higher or lower gravities than expected? ..a program is only as good as its creator...if they don't factor in temps...grain types and yeast styles into that program its just a rough draft into what you end up with...I'd say its a good place to start rather than a guide to the galaxy

 

[pmaster]

I was planning on brewing this in 2 weeks but can't seem to find galaxy hops anywhere! Seems like they were popular this year Would using Citra Mosaic and Amarillo be a good plan?

 

[kingmatt]

Ok speaking of perceived bitterness, do you @Loud Brewing or anyone else here put any stock in the IBU/SG ratio? Seems that perceived bitterness is determined by multiple factors and not just SG alone ie mash temp seems to play a role. How do ya’ll monitor/use the IBU/SG ratio when developing NEIPAs if you use this metric at all?

It's good to have a target but ultimately, especially with NEIPAs, it is really a shot in the dark as to where your IBUs will end up, IMO. There is a ton of conflicting information on what does and doesn't impart perceived bitterness in a beer (temperature, contact time, gravity etc). I think the goal should be for you to not go too high or too low for any style without getting too caught up in the number. That usually means brewing the same recipe or style multiple times and adjusting things until you hit your personal sweet spot.

 

[BeerFst]

I was planning on brewing this in 2 weeks but can't seem to find galaxy hops anywhere! Seems like they were popular this year Would using Citra Mosaic and Amarillo be a good plan?

YVH has plenty.

https://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=galaxy&Submit=

 

[SRJHops]

YVH has plenty.

https://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=galaxy&Submit=

Thumbs up for YVH. I like to support my LHBS, and buy my grain, yeast, cleaning supplies, and most of my brewing equipment from them. But I have switched to mail order from YVH for my hops. They ship RAPIDLY, and even with the shipping costs, their hops are less expensive than my LHBS. If that's not enough, YVH has more kinds available and they take great care of sealing them up so they stay fresh. (Hey YVH, send me a coupon for this endorsement, LOL!)

 

[flintoid]

YVH is the Amazon of hops. Shipping is 2 day, every time. You can order your dry hop bill after your brew day when you unexpectantly dump the last of your Citra into your whirlpool.

This year's Galaxy and Citra have been great. About to try 2019 Simcoe.

 

[pmaster]

Thanks! Ill stick to the recipe as-is then! Cheers!

 

[anteater8]

Speaking of YVH... I've been buying pounds of hops from them for years. I just ran the numbers yesterday and and realized its only around $0.15 more per oz to buy in 2 oz packages. I'm think I'm ok paying an extra $2 per batch to almost exclusively use freshly opened bags. Plus those vacuum seal bags aren't cheap anyway.

 

[anteater8]

Also, clearly off topic, but also a nod of appreciation to people and content here... I really REALLY wish there was a west coast IPA thread anywhere close to as useful as this one.

 

[Dgallo]

Also, clearly off topic, but also a nod of appreciation to people and content here... I really REALLY wish there was a west coast IPA thread anywhere close to as useful as this one.

Im surprised there isn’t actually lol. That said, I literally brew my west coast the same as my NE but flip my cl & so4 ratio and do a 60 minute 1 oz addition of magnum. Grain might be slightly different since I do want some malt flavors

 

[secretlevel]

Also, clearly off topic, but also a nod of appreciation to people and content here... I really REALLY wish there was a west coast IPA thread anywhere close to as useful as this one.

1. Look up Two Hearted Ale clone recipe
2. Make with different hops and dry hop
3. Profit

 

[Loud Brewing]

1. Look up Two Hearted Ale clone recipe
2. Make with different hops and dry hop
3. Profit

I disagree. There has been a huge shift here in the west to push the evolution of wcipa. As much as I enjoy classics like two hearted, blind pig etc. the landscape has been changing by going away from things like crystal malts, cascade/ctz, huge ibu additions and only using chico.
Everyday I am finding new examples of "new school" "modern" wcipa. As much as purists of the style might balk, these beers are currently some of my favorite to brew/drink, and in my opinion this new iteration of wcipa has a lot left to be explored and discussed.

 

[Loud Brewing]

This is a wcipa I just canned with all pilsner, vienna and carafoam with no crystal, bittered with co2 hop extract to 50ibu, long hop stand at low temps of amarillo and citra, heavily dry hopped, high ppm total Cal but balanced Cl/S water profile fermented cool with a blend of conan and chico and super high co2 vols.
6.5% and delightful .

 

[BrewCityBaller]

Im surprised there isn’t actually lol. That said, I literally brew my west coast the same as my NE but flip my cl & so4 ratio and do a 60 minute 1 oz addition of magnum. Grain might be slightly different since I do want some malt flavors

NEIPA = 2:1 Cl:SO4
WCIPA = 1:2 CL:SO4

??

 

[Dgallo]

NEIPA = 2:1 Cl:SO4
WCIPA = 1:2 CL:SO4

??

Not exactly that ratio for me but that’s essentially what I do

 

[isomerization]

Final gravity plays one of the biggest roles in building recipes, and how those recipes are perceived by the drinker. Most people have had that prototypical cloying hazy that finished at 1020 and has zero boil additions. However if it's a layered approach that we are taking with the hops, all of a sudden your 40 ibu boil addition isn't percieved nearly as bitter with all that residual sugar finishing at 1020.
With that being said I prefer a higher mash temp 154-156f mainly to enhance body/mouthfeel, as the residual sugar sweetness is heavily offset by my boil additions/dh/water chem etc.

Gotta disagree. Grain bill, hop timing (and varietal), yeast strain and attenuation are all more important than mash temp (of course imo).

As mentioned above by another poster, residual sugars from mashing high, assuming proper attenuation, are long-chain dextrins, which are not perceived as sweet. Increased mouthfeel/body, sure, but that is not the cause of cloying sweetness.

 

[Loud Brewing]

Gotta disagree. Grain bill, hop timing (and varietal), yeast strain and attenuation are all more important than mash temp (of course imo).

As mentioned above by another poster, residual sugars from mashing high, assuming proper attenuation, are long-chain dextrins, which are not perceived as sweet. Increased mouthfeel/body, sure, but that is not the cause of cloying sweetness.

You are right, FG doesn't always directly correlate to sweetness, especially based on mash temps. What I was trying to say is that the relationship between ibu and residual sugar is imo important to consider when building a recipe BU:GU. As far as long chain sugars are concerned, I understand the science but I still typically "percieve" a greater level of sweetness in higher FG beers that were mashed higher. Yes its anecdotal, but it's my experience. Similar to hard and firm IBU numbers relating to percieved bitterness, actual/percieved sweetness isn't always definitive. Medium chain sugars perhaps?

 

[beervoid]

In my experience its not FG that counts but OG and consequently higher OG also usually results in higher FG but the more grains in the bill the sweeter the beer and ofcourse sweetness from added abv.
So you need to balance bigger beers with a bit more bitterness.

 

[Loud Brewing]

In my experience its not FG that counts but OG and consequently higher OG also usually results in higher FG but the more grains in the bill the sweeter the beer and ofcourse sweetness from added abv.
So you need to balance bigger beers with a bit more bitterness.

This (and everything else discussed above) is why I assume that most BU:GU charts use OG instead of FG to scale bittering. I love how everything in brewing and fermenting works in concert, it's so fascinating to me.

 

[echoALEia]

Hey all

Sorry to get a little off topic, but here are two different beers I brewed, the one on the left is just with IOY Juice and the right is a blend of S33, K97, and WB06. Both were cask conditioned with F2. The grists are fairly similar (basically 38% malted oats, the rest rahr 2 row, Munich II, And carafoam). The SRM for both are 5.5 (next time I’m going higher). The hops on the left are Galaxy, Citra, Mosaic, and Amarillo, the right are Strata, Citra, and Idaho7. I’ve used the recipe on the left and won a competition with it and if I was drinking it by itself, I would crush and love it as a NEIPA.

That being said, the one on the right blows it away in terms of aroma, taste, and color (no, the one on the left is definitely not oxidized). It’s much more tropical fruit all around and reminds me of my favorites from EQ, OH, and monkish. Not quite treehouse yet but I think less hops might make it more like their core beers. Hope this helps in your search of yeast. Cheers!

 

[wepeeler]

So I finally was able to do an 11 gallon split batch and DH one fermenter on Day 2 and the other on Day 5 to see (taste) if there was a difference in appearance, flavor, aroma and haze stability. On kegging day, the Day 2 DH was juicer, fuller, less harsh and just as hazy and light colored as the Day 5 DH. A week later in the keg and the Day 2 DH beer was clearing and darkening ever so slightly. The aroma was much less than when we kegged. The Day 5 DH beer was still super hazy, aroma was off the hook, but the flavor was a touch salty on the back end. Week 2 in the keg and they are different beers. The aroma on the Day 2 DH is gone and the beer is basically clear. The Day 5 DH beer is still super aromatic, light and has a great mouthfeel.

Perhaps the haze produced during biotransformation is indeed different than the haze produced during a later DH addition. I know there are other variables in this "exbeeriment", but I feel like we did everything in our power to keep all other processes the same. The only difference was the fermentation DH schedule. Perhaps the biotransformation haze was the binded polyphenols and proteins dropping out and clearing the beer once it was cold crashed (kegged)? Maybe that's why the early DH was smoother because the polyphenols dropped out, but were still present in the later DH beer (which was harsher at first). Perhaps the haze produced by the later DH was more hop oils, and they don't precipitate out, since they aren't as heavy as the polyphenol/protein interaction?

I say "perhaps" above, because I don't really know for sure. It was a nice little "exbeeriment", but I'd feel more confident reproducing this a few times and seeing if the results are the same.

After reading about haze stabilization produced during early DHing, I think more research needs to be done. I'm sure different yeast, malt and hop combos would change this as well. So many dang variables.

As for me, I think my mind was changed a little, and my next neipa I won't be DHing so early during fermentation. Forever a learning process...

 

[flintoid]

Hey all

Sorry to get a little off topic, but here are two different beers I brewed, the one on the left is just with IOY Juice and the right is a blend of S33, K97, and WB06. Both were cask conditioned with F2. The grists are fairly similar (basically 38% malted oats, the rest rahr 2 row, Munich II, And carafoam). The SRM for both are 5.5 (next time I’m going higher). The hops on the left are Galaxy, Citra, Mosaic, and Amarillo, the right are Strata, Citra, and Idaho7. I’ve used the recipe on the left and won a competition with it and if I was drinking it by itself, I would crush and love it as a NEIPA.

That being said, the one on the right blows it away in terms of aroma, taste, and color (no, the one on the left is definitely not oxidized). It’s much more tropical fruit all around and reminds me of my favorites from EQ, OH, and monkish. Not quite treehouse yet but I think less hops might make it more like their core beers. Hope this helps in your search of yeast. Cheers!

View attachment 668555

If you don't mind me asking- what was your S-33 / K-97 / WB-06 blend ratios / weights?

I've been doing the old S-04 / T-58 / WB-06 blending and have tired of it. The esters aren't as bright as I want them to be.

I've noticed English Yeasts (1318, S-04) give off a darker SRM. I did a Kveik and it was a brighter SRM (same grain bill) and I swear it had punchier esters.

 

[SanPancho]

Hey all

Sorry to get a little off topic, but here are two different beers I brewed, the one on the left is just with IOY Juice and the right is a blend of S33, K97, and WB06.

View attachment 668555

nice. what are the ratios of the individual strains? same pitch time or staggered? temp?

most importantly, were you able to get a good read on the blend's ester profile before the hops took over?

 

[isomerization]

So I finally was able to do an 11 gallon split batch and DH one fermenter on Day 2 and the other on Day 5 to see (taste) if there was a difference in appearance, flavor, aroma and haze stability. On kegging day, the Day 2 DH was juicer, fuller, less harsh and just as hazy and light colored as the Day 5 DH. A week later in the keg and the Day 2 DH beer was clearing and darkening ever so slightly. The aroma was much less than when we kegged. The Day 5 DH beer was still super hazy, aroma was off the hook, but the flavor was a touch salty on the back end. Week 2 in the keg and they are different beers. The aroma on the Day 2 DH is gone and the beer is basically clear. The Day 5 DH beer is still super aromatic, light and has a great mouthfeel.

Perhaps the haze produced during biotransformation is indeed different than the haze produced during a later DH addition. I know there are other variables in this "exbeeriment", but I feel like we did everything in our power to keep all other processes the same. The only difference was the fermentation DH schedule. Perhaps the biotransformation haze was the binded polyphenols and proteins dropping out and clearing the beer once it was cold crashed (kegged)? Maybe that's why the early DH was smoother because the polyphenols dropped out, but were still present in the later DH beer (which was harsher at first). Perhaps the haze produced by the later DH was more hop oils, and they don't precipitate out, since they aren't as heavy as the polyphenol/protein interaction?

I say "perhaps" above, because I don't really know for sure. It was a nice little "exbeeriment", but I'd feel more confident reproducing this a few times and seeing if the results are the same.

After reading about haze stabilization produced during early DHing, I think more research needs to be done. I'm sure different yeast, malt and hop combos would change this as well. So many dang variables.

As for me, I think my mind was changed a little, and my next neipa I won't be DHing so early during fermentation. Forever a learning process...

Any difference in attenuation or time to complete fermentation between the two batches?

 

[SRJHops]

So I finally was able to do an 11 gallon split batch and DH one fermenter on Day 2 and the other on Day 5 to see (taste) if there was a difference in appearance, flavor, aroma and haze stability. On kegging day, the Day 2 DH was juicer, fuller, less harsh and just as hazy and light colored as the Day 5 DH. A week later in the keg and the Day 2 DH beer was clearing and darkening ever so slightly. The aroma was much less than when we kegged. The Day 5 DH beer was still super hazy, aroma was off the hook, but the flavor was a touch salty on the back end. Week 2 in the keg and they are different beers. The aroma on the Day 2 DH is gone and the beer is basically clear. The Day 5 DH beer is still super aromatic, light and has a great mouthfeel.

Perhaps the haze produced during biotransformation is indeed different than the haze produced during a later DH addition. I know there are other variables in this "exbeeriment", but I feel like we did everything in our power to keep all other processes the same. The only difference was the fermentation DH schedule. Perhaps the biotransformation haze was the binded polyphenols and proteins dropping out and clearing the beer once it was cold crashed (kegged)? Maybe that's why the early DH was smoother because the polyphenols dropped out, but were still present in the later DH beer (which was harsher at first). Perhaps the haze produced by the later DH was more hop oils, and they don't precipitate out, since they aren't as heavy as the polyphenol/protein interaction?

I say "perhaps" above, because I don't really know for sure. It was a nice little "exbeeriment", but I'd feel more confident reproducing this a few times and seeing if the results are the same.

After reading about haze stabilization produced during early DHing, I think more research needs to be done. I'm sure different yeast, malt and hop combos would change this as well. So many dang variables.

As for me, I think my mind was changed a little, and my next neipa I won't be DHing so early during fermentation. Forever a learning process...

Thanks for sharing the results. Sounds like a strike against the DH at high krausen...

I am still trying to experiment with a small DH on Day 3.5, near the end of fermentation. But I also do another 2-3 days before bottling. Doing a pretty cold final DH right now (bottling on Sunday). It's at 53 degrees (I was going for 58; I use ice, so it's not a precise system). I think Janish suggested even trying to DH during cold crashing, so we'll see how this turns out...

 

[echoALEia]

If you don't mind me asking- what was your S-33 / K-97 / WB-06 blend ratios / weights?

I've been doing the old S-04 / T-58 / WB-06 blending and have tired of it. The esters aren't as bright as I want them to be.

I've noticed English Yeasts (1318, S-04) give off a darker SRM. I did a Kveik and it was a brighter SRM (same grain bill) and I swear it had punchier esters.

Sure! So I detailed this a little more in depth in the treehouse yeast isolation thread but basically I brewed 35 gallons of this and used s33 as my primary ferment. I pitched about 90g of it. When I did my first dry hop after 4 days, I pitched 11g of wb06 with them and I had a 5 gallon (minus the 35) side fermentation of k-97 going in a hop cannon and pitched the ddh hops in that right before I reached terminal gravity. I didn’t get many esters from the k-97 ferment, but prior to dry hopping the s33 I would say the esters were slightly peachy or even cherry like. It was hazy af before even hopping which leads me to wonder if the haze comes mostly from the whirlpool hops.