New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[couchsending]

So the difference between 001/1056/US05 is that Yeast strain is more prone to genetic mutations than almost any brewing strain. It’s a diploid yeast strain where almost all other brewing yeasts are polyploids. Diploid yeasts don’t have as many sets of chromosomes and consequently are much more prone to mutation. Bread yeasts are more likely to be of the diploid variety.

As always this is a good link to really throw those yeast comparison charts for a loop.

So4 is definitely not 007 or 1098.
007 and 1098 aren’t the same
002 and 1968 aren’t the same

And so on and so forth. Also confirms that there is nothing from White Lbs genetically close to 1318.

https://beer.suregork.com/?p=4030

 

[nick sekerak]

Did you think the esters were stronger than the hop notes? I may try to up my pitch next time

I don’t think they were stronger, as in not over powering the hop greatness but rather adding another layer equal to the hop flavor. I get the ester flavor first then hop flavor second when drinking it. If that makes sense.

 

[nick sekerak]

What was that grain bill? Was it 82% Pilsner? Looks perfect
@nick sekerak

Thanks I like how it turned out. I was trying the no flaked oats/wheat for this one to see if mouthfeel would change. Got the idea from the Scott Janish book.

My Actual grain bill
70% Pilsner
10% malted oats
9% malted wheat
9% carapils
2% honey malt

 

[stickyfinger]

i asked WL if Burlington Ale is Conan. They said it is very similar then gave the usual comments about mutation and not knowing exact sourcing

 

[Hannabrew]

I have an experiment to share with you all. There have been several experiments about oats vs wheat in neipa - usually flaked variety, But I have yet to stumble across malted oats vs wheat malt. I decided to do my own. I brewed two seperate small batch neipas:

80% TF Golden Promise
18% Crisp Malted Oats or Weyerman White Wheat Malt
2% Honey Malt
(Normally I decrease oats and use chit but I did not want to skew the foam/body comparison)

1oz gal WP of Citra
1oz gal dryhop of Citra on Day 3

Since these were small batches I could not do my usual cold side LODO but I figured it would be okay since each would have roughly the equivalent exposure to oxygen. After 24hrs dryhop (still some SG left), I transferred each to a uKeg to spund w/ a CO2 cylinder for backup. In day 14, no discernible difference, day 21 - oat had better mouthfeel & foam (shaving cream vs big bubbles for wheat) and malted oats slightly darker.

Here is day 28 - the difference in oxidation characteristics is shocking. Malted oats is much darker, the hops aroma has taken a huge hit BUT the mouthfeel & foam are significantly more "desirable". Malted wheat batch has okay foam that lingers for a minute and thin body, but the hop aroma & flavors are popping like crazy vs stale/oxidized for the malted oats brew.
View attachment 646560

I was originally planning to take pics every two weeks up till 8, but I feel like this is enough data for me to stop the experiment.

I have still have some malted oats to work through, but I will not be using in the future. I plan to switch to flaked barley for the body/head component after that and test again vs wheat malt.

Tangent - Another thing I am trying to quantify is the impact of polyphenols in hops on mouthfeel. The brew I made a while back that was solo dryhop of 1.5oz per gal of galaxy (known for high polyphenols) had the best mouthfeel of any beer I have ever made. It had malted oats but it was a split batch and the other had el dorado, citra, mosaic dryhop - the mouthfeel/body wasnt even close to the galaxy batch.

Cheers!

Thanks for this experiment but this seems odd based on my results with malted oats. I've replaced flaked adjuncts completely in my NEIPAs for malted wheat/oats (usually heavier on the oats) and have never seen that much change in color even in a batch that I was forced to leave at room temp for over 3 weeks!

It would be interesting to see the experiment repeated by both yourself and somebody else to see if it holds true. I am willing but it won't be for a bit as I have 10G fermenting right now.

 

[Hannabrew]

Slightly off topic but I think this is the right crowd to potentially help.

Had a 6 month old overbuilt starter of 1318 that I decided to build up via a blonde ale (which I planned on DHing). This is the oldest yeast I've tried using so I'm in uncharted territory for me. I usually always use healthy yeast.

I made a 1L starter with it and there was about 24-36 hour lag time but eventually it picked up and flocked out. I didn't take a FG.

I then decanted it and pitched it into a 1.050 blonde a day later with 90s pure O2 and nutrient.

The main batch had a decent lag time too but I attributed that to pitching at 63. I let it free rise to 172 from there.

Fast forward a week later and it has stalled at 1.020 when it should be around 1.014 or lower (144/148/154/162 mash).

I'm adding some Energizer and rousing the fermenter and it seems to be doing something however my bigger concern is the beer smells and tastes like I used Belgian yeast.

Has anybody gotten Belgian-type esters from 1318 when under-pitched? Think it will clean up if I can restart fermentation?

The rousing and energizer did get it down to 1.010 but this was my first ever dumper...straight from the primary to the toilet. Must've been stressed yeast.

What a pisser.

 

[Hackrsackr]

1318 and Juice act exactly the same during fermentation and produce that signature soft, kinda sweet beer.

You really think so? I find the ester profile to be very different between the two. Also, juice and 1318 behave differently for me when it comes to fermentation/dry hopping. Juice seems to handle pressure and hops better. Juice’s esters are almost solely citrus fruity, where 1318 has its distinctive pome fruity with floral notes ester profile. I find 1318 to be softer on the palate out of the two.

 

[Hackrsackr]

i asked WL if Burlington Ale is Conan. They said it is very similar then gave the usual comments about mutation and not knowing exact sourcing

Even if it was the identical genetics and they knew the exact sourcing, WL wouldn’t be able to confirm it for you. It’d be like making knock off apple air pods that are identical to the real in every way, and having a customer ask you if these are apple air pods. You can’t legally say yes, but you can say that they are very similar to apple air pods with nearly identical performance. Legal...

 

[Northern_Brewer]

So the difference between 001/1056/US05 is that Yeast strain is more prone to genetic mutations than almost any brewing strain. It’s a diploid yeast strain

None of the Chicos are diploid - they're tetrapoloid like almost every Beer1 strain. From what I can make out it comes from a misunderstanding in Dunn & Sherlock 2008 https://genome.cshlp.org/content/18/10/1610.full.pdf+html where they just assumed that any non-lager yeast must be diploid, even though the version of Chico they used (1056) showed lots of heterozygosity for them!!! But trust me, Chicos are tetraploid.

 

[paarman]

What would cause fermentation to halt at the last few points? I made a few NE IPAs and used 1318 in May, and slurry for the next few-they all finished 1.020 at best, maybe 1.018 on one. I just made an entirely different recipe (following post 5803), this time using Omega OYL-052 and this one finished at 1.022.

I ferment around 68* for 10 days at least, I've dry hopped 3 days in, 6 days in-didn't seem to matter. I've had others finish out with the same yeast in the same conditions that dropped a little lower-the only thing that changed this year is that I am using a SS BrewBucket-process is all remotely the same. I can't figure out why they're stalling at the end now.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

What would cause fermentation to halt at the last few points? I made a few NE IPAs and used 1318 in May, and slurry for the next few-they all finished 1.020 at best, maybe 1.018 on one. I just made an entirely different recipe (following post 5803), this time using Omega OYL-052 and this one finished at 1.022.

I ferment around 68* for 10 days at least, I've dry hopped 3 days in, 6 days in-didn't seem to matter. I've had others finish out with the same yeast in the same conditions that dropped a little lower-the only thing that changed this year is that I am using a SS BrewBucket-process is all remotely the same. I can't figure out why they're stalling at the end now.

WHat kind of OG are you starting with?
What kind of mash regimen are you using?

 

[paarman]

WHat kind of OG are you starting with?
What kind of mash regimen are you using?

1.060-1.064 for a few. Those were all 1318 being used. Most recent was 1.074 with the Omega yeast. I wanted to switch to see if using slurry was my issue, but apparently getting similar results.

Mashing 148-152 for 60 minutes. I generally lose a couple degrees during, but still hit close to my OG and efficiency doesn't take too much of a hit. I generally get between 65-75%.

 

[flintoid]

did you get a new hydrometer? And what temp are you measuring the gravity at? Too cold will yield you too many points.

I broke a hydrometer for the first time in years, and have noticed a few point drift.

Also- I've used old 1318 and have seen that the final points need more than 10 days to scrub off on the cake. When it's ~3 months old, fermenting in the mid 60's needs at least 2 weeks in primary. Using a clear fermentation vessel + a wireless hydrometer (Tilt, etc) helps you see the activity and gravity trends before making brash decisions.

 

[paarman]

I actually did get a new one for this last batch after my last few (again for the reason being I wanted to pinpoint where the issue could be lol). I have a refractometer as well with ATC. I made sure both were calibrated to 0 before this most recent batch. Both gave me 1.074 as my OG with temperature correction (for the hydro reading)

I took a measurement last Thursday and it was at 1.022, took another one on Sunday and it was still at 1.022. I presume it's not dropping much further, if any. Today would be day 12 of fermentation.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I actually did get a new one for this last batch after my last few (again for the reason being I wanted to pinpoint where the issue could be lol). I have a refractometer as well with ATC. I made sure both were calibrated to 0 before this most recent batch. Both gave me 1.074 as my OG with temperature correction (for the hydro reading)

I took a measurement last Thursday and it was at 1.022, took another one on Sunday and it was still at 1.022. I presume it's not dropping much further, if any. Today would be day 12 of fermentation.

Was that with hydrometer or refractometer?
You are using a refractometer calculator of FG, right? You know it doesn't give a correct reading when there is alcohol in solution, yes?
I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but some people don't realize that when they first start using a refractometer.

 

[BeerFst]

I actually did get a new one for this last batch after my last few (again for the reason being I wanted to pinpoint where the issue could be lol). I have a refractometer as well with ATC. I made sure both were calibrated to 0 before this most recent batch. Both gave me 1.074 as my OG with temperature correction (for the hydro reading)

I took a measurement last Thursday and it was at 1.022, took another one on Sunday and it was still at 1.022. I presume it's not dropping much further, if any. Today would be day 12 of fermentation.

What about O2?Juice is noted as needing extra O2. I have never had a problem with my Juice starters fermenting out, but the Imperial page (at least it used to) noted to double O2 requirements for complete fermentation. I do not dose beyond what is gained from transfer to FV however

 

[paarman]

Was that with hydrometer or refractometer?
You are using a refractometer calculator of FG, right? You know it doesn't give a correct reading when there is alcohol in solution, yes?
I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but some people don't realize that when they first start using a refractometer.

Yes, I only use the refractometer for SG/OG readings, I am aware it doesn't give an accurate reading with alcohol in the solution. I never use it beyond brew day. The hydro gave me 1.074 before fermentation, and the FG 1.022 readings have come only from the hydrometer (@68*)

 

[paarman]

What about O2?Juice is noted as needing extra O2. I have never had a problem with my Juice starters fermenting out, but the Imperial page (at least it used to) noted to double O2 requirements for complete fermentation. I do not dose beyond what is gained from transfer to FV however

That could be it. I always give the wort a good long shake before pitching, but perhaps that is my bottleneck. I did not know that about this yeast-may need to look into another method of getting O2 into the beer prior to pitching. Like you, my starters always seem plenty healthy, and the last few I have done have been 2L starters so according to the 4 calculators I use, it should be an adequate amount of yeast cells available when I'm pitching.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

1.060-1.064 for a few. Those were all 1318 being used. Most recent was 1.074 with the Omega yeast. I wanted to switch to see if using slurry was my issue, but apparently getting similar results.

Mashing 148-152 for 60 minutes. I generally lose a couple degrees during, but still hit close to my OG and efficiency doesn't take too much of a hit. I generally get between 65-75%.

Obviously more than mash temp plays into attenuation but you should get lower with that mash temp. I did 3 batches of 1318 awhile back, all were around 1.058-1.060 OG.

Gen1 - mashed at 153. FG - 1.014
Gen2(harvested) - mashed at 156. FG - 1.020
Gen2(harvested) - mashed at 149. FG - 1.010

I didn't taste much difference in body/sweetness between the 3 batches, so I wouldn't sweat finishing at 1.020 unless you disliked it for some reason. I know some breweries who actually shoot for that FG on their hazy IPAs.

 

[paarman]

Obviously more than mash temp plays into attenuation but you should get lower with that mash temp. I did 3 batches of 1318 awhile back, all were around 1.058-1.060 OG.

Gen1 - mashed at 153. FG - 1.014
Gen2(harvested) - mashed at 156. FG - 1.020
Gen2(harvested) - mashed at 149. FG - 1.010

Interesting. Thanks, this is new to me. Basically I brewed my Gen1 in May, numbers were *close* but FG was 1.020 with 1318 and I was curious why-last year I made similar recipes and really the only piece of equipment that changed was my Brewbucket. I did start buying from a new homebrew place, so I went to double milled grains to see if that changed-I got great efficiency once I did that, but the attenuation was still lower. The following recipe was back to how the first turned out and I think the lowest I got a FG was 1.018, but thinking on it that may have been one that mashed at 148*. Generally I hover right around 152* though, so what you are saying would make sense. I've been double milling all my grain now, and like you, all of my OG when using 1318 landed right around 1.060 (+-.001). Thanks for the input!

 

[Oldskewl]

What would cause fermentation to halt at the last few points? I made a few NE IPAs and used 1318 in May, and slurry for the next few-they all finished 1.020 at best, maybe 1.018 on one. I just made an entirely different recipe (following post 5803), this time using Omega OYL-052 and this one finished at 1.022.

I ferment around 68* for 10 days at least, I've dry hopped 3 days in, 6 days in-didn't seem to matter. I've had others finish out with the same yeast in the same conditions that dropped a little lower-the only thing that changed this year is that I am using a SS BrewBucket-process is all remotely the same. I can't figure out why they're stalling at the end now.

I think your yeast did fine. It still attenuated 70.2%. When you start with a higher gravity of the same recipe it will finish a few points higher. If you changed the recipe you may have more unfermentable sugars and that would also cause it as well.

 

[Dgallo]

@paarman I do not know if anyone mentioned this yet, but have you replaced the batteries in your Thermometer lately and/or are you sure you thermometer is calibrated correctly. I had an issue two beers in a row that they were reading lower than the actual temp. Was trying to target 152 and kept finishing at 1.018ish finally checked on the third batch and 152 on my digital was actually 4 degrees higher. Just another curveball thrown into the mix

 

[couchsending]

Did you use any sugar in the 1.074 batch?

I too have struggled with 1318 the few times I’ve used it in the last year or so. Actually have something going with the Omega strain right now and I’m interested to see how it ends up. I checked it yesterday and was thinking it would be lower as I overpitched it and started at 68 then bumped to 72.

I oxygenate with a .5 micron stone and pure o2 at .5 for 3 minutes. DO meter buts that around 12 ppm O2.

Yeast nutrient always

Doing all the things necessary to ensure quick and complete fermentation. Unless my yeast viability in severely challenged to begin with not sure what the issue is.

Thermapen and GF thermostat are all calibrated.

 

[paarman]

@paarman I do not know if anyone mentioned this yet, but have you replaced the batteries in your Thermometer lately and/or are you sure you thermometer is calibrated correctly. I had an issue two beers in a row that they were reading lower than the actual temp. Was trying to target 152 and kept finishing at 1.018ish finally checked on the third batch and 152 on my digital was actually 4 degrees higher. Just another curveball thrown into the mix

I use a dial thermometer, but I thought about upgrading to an instant-read one to save myself some headache. I'll keep this in mind, thanks!

Did you use any sugar in the 1.074 batch?

I too have struggled with 1318 the few times I’ve used it in the last year or so. Actually have something going with the Omega strain right now and I’m interested to see how it ends up. I checked it yesterday and was thinking it would be lower as I overpitched it and started at 68 then bumped to 72.

I oxygenate with a .5 micron stone and pure o2 at .5 for 3 minutes. DO meter buts that around 12 ppm O2.

Yeast nutrient always

Doing all the things necessary to ensure quick and complete fermentation. Unless my yeast viability in severely challenged to begin with not sure what the issue is.

Thermapen and GF thermostat are all calibrated.

Glad to hear someone else having similar issues. I didn't use any sugar in this batch, just these ingredients, except I somehow forgot the honey malt .. It was only 6oz of it however. 15lbs total without.

2 Row, Golden Promise, Flaked Oats, Flaked Barley, White Wheat Malt, Honey Malt

I will look into making sure my wort gets more oxygen moving forward-not something I have ever really focused on before, perhaps overlooked/forgot about it.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[BeerFst]

I read an article (tried to find it but no luck) that was actually in reference to pitching active starters recently spun on a stir plate. the suggestion was that the currently active fermentation, and the excess oxygen as introduced into the starter wort, when pitched directly into the full size batch wort would be an improvement over pitching a "cold" decanted starter even if adding O2 via wand.

I have been thinking about trying something like that since i dont have an o2 wand just yet, but have the other materials.

 

[couchsending]

I use a dial thermometer, but I thought about upgrading to an instant-read one to save myself some headache. I'll keep this in mind, thanks!



Glad to hear someone else having similar issues. I didn't use any sugar in this batch, just these ingredients, except I somehow forgot the honey malt .. It was only 6oz of it however. 15lbs total without.

2 Row, Golden Promise, Flaked Oats, Flaked Barley, White Wheat Malt, Honey Malt

I will look into making sure my wort gets more oxygen moving forward-not something I have ever really focused on before, perhaps overlooked/forgot about it.

Thanks for the feedback!

Yeah you definitely need to use some
Sugar at that gravity to get fermentation down lower.

 

[paarman]

Yeah you definitely need to use some
Sugar at that gravity to get fermentation down lower.

How much would you use in a 5 gallon batch with about 15.4lbs grain... 1 cup towards the end of the boil?

 

[BeerFst]

In

How much would you use in a 5 gallon batch with about 15.4lbs grain... 1 cup towards the end of the boil?

I think the suggestion is to replace some of your base malt with sugar since the sugar is fully fermentable. So for the same og you are basically guaranteed to get a slightly lower fg by swapping out some base malt for 8-16 oz of sugar

 

[couchsending]

Exactly. Up to a lb of dextrose especially if you’re trying to get to 8%. I find that with double IPAs the alcohol adds a bunch of sweetness and body in its own. I shoot for somewhere around 1.012 for a finishing gravity on an 8% IIPA.

This is where beers like Double Citra from HF finish and they’re some of my favorite IIPAs. They’re incredibly drinkable, never sweet.

 

[InspectorJon]

I use a dial thermometer, but I thought about upgrading to an instant-read one to save myself some headache. I'll keep this in mind, thanks!

Dial thermometers are notorious for being out of calibration. I use them a lot for work and regularly find them out of adjustment. I am looking at temperature differentials so actual temperature accuracy is not critical for that use. They can be adjusted. Grab the hex nut on the bottom with some pliers or wrench and twist the dial with another set of pliers. Test the thermometer in a glass full of crushed ice and water. Stirred up good it should read 32F or 0C. Testing with boiling water can be hard to get right if you are not pretty near sea level. Boiling water temperature drops about 1 degree F per 500 feet of elevation according to tables I have seen.

My daughter got me a ThermoPop for Christmas a couple years ago. I love it.