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American IPA "Northeast" style IPA

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Noob_Brewer

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For the folks who use fermentation to help purge their dry hop keg: are there any concerns about non-CO2 volatiles being pushed into the dry hop keg along with the CO2?
I have not done this myself but what are you referring to specifically? Fermentation produces CO2 and if that is harnessed you purge a second vessel, like a serving keg or dry hopped vessel, I don’t see any issues. I’ve purged a future serving keg this way and it works great!
 

midegrou

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I have not done this myself but what are you referring to specifically? Fermentation produces CO2 and if that is harnessed you purge a second vessel, like a serving keg or dry hopped vessel, I don’t see any issues. I’ve purged a future serving keg this way and it works great!
Yeah, this is exactly what I do and it seems to have been working great. I guess my question boils down to whether or not CO2 is the *only* "purging" gas being created during fermentation. Just curious more than anything else.
 

crusader1612

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Version 4.0 of my Kveik Hazyt w/ Opshaug this weekend.

Someone challenged me to use 2 hops I've had in my stock fro awhile - sabro and sorachi ace, in the same beer (given their uniqueness). so here i am using some of them. LOL

As per version 3 not alot changes, but im using different boil hops for said "challenge".
The only real change to timing of hops will be dryhopping

So i've got
25g Sabro @ 15min
25g Sorachi Ace @ 5min
100g Nelson Sauvin @ whirlpoo (80deg C)
Pitch day bio transhop - 50g citra
Dryhop 150g Citra

Previously my biotrans hop went in after around 36 hours, right on the cusp of fermentation finishing on kveik yeast (I missed it on V1, as i did 48 hours).

Trying our the pitch day hopping on this with a single dryhop after.
V5.0 (depending on how this one goes will split the biotranshopping up into pitch day and 24 hours later).

Results in around 10 days.
Some time to getthis one up and mellowed out I think.

This went as expected.
biop Trans hop worked, but theres less haze then V3.0, the sabro and sorachi play a big part in the flavour, a real lemongrass/coconut vibe (I'm gladd I didnt put any more in, as it would have turned more into that whole coconut soap thing).
Then the rest is all Citra and some dank nelson. had plenty of comments around the total uniqueness of the beer and how its not as tropical and juicy as most other Haze filled beers.

V3.0 is better for hop haze and potentially juicyness too. So the next version will be a pitch day hop and a hop 2 days later. I think that will be the key to this one.
Got lots of Mosaic and simcoe this time round, so will probably run with that.

thoughts are
25g columbus @ 15
25g columbus @ 5
100g Simcoe @ 80Deg C whirlpool

25g mosaic pitch day hop
25g simcoe pitch day hop

50g mosaic day 2 hop

100g final dryhop of mosaic

Opshaug as usual (once I have the hopping dialled in where I want it, I'll run one through with Verdant (I suspect this will be the one).
 

couchsending

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Anyone used Talus (HBC692) much? I used it a bit last fall and have had a few commercial single hop beers with it. Revisited it recently in a beer that was DH with it and Zappa. One of the craziest aroma and flavor profiles I’ve ever experienced. Floral, strawberry/apricot, pine, and some interesting shrubby/weedy profile that’s not necessarily dank. Really crazy.
 

beervoid

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Anyone used Talus (HBC692) much? I used it a bit last fall and have had a few commercial single hop beers with it. Revisited it recently in a beer that was DH with it and Zappa. One of the craziest aroma and flavor profiles I’ve ever experienced. Floral, strawberry/apricot, pine, and some interesting shrubby/weedy profile that’s not necessarily dank. Really crazy.
It was like a lighter sabro for me, paired with citra 50/50. Didnt like the coconut thing.
 

couchsending

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It was like a lighter sabro for me, paired with citra 50/50. Didnt like the coconut thing.
I don’t get Coconut from it. I definitely get the Neomexicanus aspect of it that’s hard to describe but it seems to be more pine and less coconut/cedar/dill. I think it’s a much better hop than Sabro personally
 

beervoid

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I don’t get Coconut from it. I definitely get the Neomexicanus aspect of it that’s hard to describe but it seems to be more pine and less coconut/cedar/dill. I think it’s a much better hop than Sabro personally
Yes, agreed. Its more floral, some describe potpourri? I get that, but I also get the light sabro coconut thing. Not as offense, and I think it might work as a smaller part of the bill to add complexity for me.
 

secretlevel

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Anyone used Talus (HBC692) much? I used it a bit last fall and have had a few commercial single hop beers with it. Revisited it recently in a beer that was DH with it and Zappa. One of the craziest aroma and flavor profiles I’ve ever experienced. Floral, strawberry/apricot, pine, and some interesting shrubby/weedy profile that’s not necessarily dank. Really crazy.
I do have 4oz of Talus laying around alongside 6oz HBC630, just trying to come up with some ideas of what to do with these and where to apply them. If Talus is anything like Sabro, I doubt I want to use more than a couple oz in dry hop, maybe mixed in with Citra.

HBC630 on the other hand has very strong aroma of cherry and candied fruit, I want to use it as the main hop in a smaller batch. Any suggestions are welcome :)
 

couchsending

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I’ve only had HBC 630 in one beer, a beer from Cellarmaker that blended it with a Mosaic. The cherry aspect is definitely there but it got a little overpowers by the Mosaic. Decent amount of pine to it as well.

Idaho Gem and certain El Dorado lots bring a bunch of the red candy, cherry. Maybe an interesting blend of those three.

692, Like all the hops with Neomexicanus ancestry, has that woody aspect to it. However for me it seems to blend well with the other elements of the hop. I get a lot of floral/grapefruit character which seems to go with the woody/pine. Sabro is so weird cause it’s so tropical and then boom tons of cedar which doesn’t go together at all.
 

R.A.I.D

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Interesting read about purging kegs:
Kegging With Care: A Guide to Purging. - The Modern Brewhouse

Tldr:
You can purge your head space in a keg (or a full keg) by adding co2 from a bottle to 1 bar (15 psi) and vent pressure through PRV 20 times.

Fermentation gas is pure co2 and should be more pure than co2 from a bottle. So better for purging.

Fermentation of 20 L (5 gal) from 1050 oc to 1010 oc gives 439 liter pure co2 which is enough to purge 25 L equal to an empty dry hop or serving keg (plus some head space in the fermenter). This is just by letting the co2 through the empty keg.
 

secretlevel

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Interesting read about purging kegs:
Kegging With Care: A Guide to Purging. - The Modern Brewhouse

Tldr:
You can purge your head space in a keg (or a full keg) by adding co2 from a bottle to 1 bar (15 psi) and vent pressure through PRV 20 times.

Fermentation gas is pure co2 and should be more pure than co2 from a bottle. So better for purging.

Fermentation of 20 L (5 gal) from 1050 oc to 1010 oc gives 439 liter pure co2 which is enough to purge 25 L equal to an empty dry hop or serving keg (plus some head space in the fermenter). This is just by letting the co2 through the empty keg.
I usually purge 5-6 times if I have to open the keg but I can see the quality of my shipped bottles improving if I go beyond 10-15 purges. I usually brew 3-4 gallons, so the amount of CO2 being used here is going to be a little crazy.
 
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Noob_Brewer

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Recipe for Vitamin Sea Double Summer (4.33 on Untappd) in the latest issue of CB&B Magazine.

Found it interesting that they use more hops in the kettle than in the dry hop.View attachment 703866
Very interesting. At first glance I was perplexed as to how their IBUs was that low given using 3oz in boil but then noticed the timing of the hops. Im typically going with a 60min (0.5-0.75oz) addition and then a 5 or 10min addition of (.75ish) for ~8%abv beers but going lower on WP (155) so not a big IBU pickup on WP for me. Anyone here try this strategy of more in the boil but at 20, 15, and 10 minutes? Curious as to your experiences if anyone here has run the boil kettle both ways.

Note: Ive never had vitamin sea beers, but 44IBUs for a 8.7%ABV beer seems a little low to me as I like some bitterness to balance everything else. Comments?
 

elproducto

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Brewed this yesterday with Azacca/Eureka/Mosaic. Haven't used Eureka before, but the hops jumped out of the bag when I opened them!
 

Dgallo

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Note: Ive never had vitamin sea beers, but 44IBUs for a 8.7%ABV beer seems a little low to me as I like some bitterness to balance everything else. Comments?
They brew extremely good beers. 100% on par with tree house. I see the recipe calls for dextrose as well so that will help keep the balance. To be honest, that’s most likely not their exact recipe (most likely added or neglected to add parts of it) but something that will get you semi close.
 

ihavenonickname

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My experience with Talus is bright and clear pine, subtle grapefruit and roses. No coconut at all, not really fruity, but I really liked it.

Another sabro related hop Hbc 473 definitely had more of a coconut thing that came off more as whiskey barrels or vanilla. I’m not sure what I’ll do with it, hesitant to put it in a ipa.

Edit: not
 
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couchsending

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My experience with Talus is bright and clear pine, subtle grapefruit and roses. No coconut at all, not really fruity, but I really liked it.

Another sabro related hop Hbc 473 definitely had more of a coconut thing that came off more as whiskey barrels or vanilla. I’m sure what I’ll do with it, hesitant to put it in a NEIPA
472.. it’s cool as a WP or late addition to brown ales or porters/stouts.
 

BongoYodeler

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My experience with Talus is bright and clear pine, subtle grapefruit and roses. No coconut at all, not really fruity, but I really liked it.

Another sabro related hop Hbc 473 definitely had more of a coconut thing that came off more as whiskey barrels or vanilla. I’m sure what I’ll do with it, hesitant to put it in a NEIPA
I'm really not a fan of coconut flavor in an ipa either. I'd suggest trying it in a stout, but unless it's a really strong coconut flavor it may get lost in a stout.
 

deadwolfbones

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Anyone used Talus (HBC692) much? I used it a bit last fall and have had a few commercial single hop beers with it. Revisited it recently in a beer that was DH with it and Zappa. One of the craziest aroma and flavor profiles I’ve ever experienced. Floral, strawberry/apricot, pine, and some interesting shrubby/weedy profile that’s not necessarily dank. Really crazy.
I used it in a pale ale and got so much coconut butter that half the people I gave it to thought it was diacetyl (it wasn't).
 

JohnConnor

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Just kegged a rando brew day IPA yesterday. I used Omega DIPA yeast for the first time as an audible (hbs was out of what I wanted). Good lord did I get a peach bomb. My wife could smell it in the other room. It's sitting on citra/amarillo dry hop right now but super stoked to see where this goes. For as touchy as people complain Conan to be, this guy finished at 1.14 and drop cleared in a couple days with a soft crash to 55.
 

Dgallo

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If anyone here is within eq delivery or current distro, keep any eye for a collab with Fidens coming out in the next few weeks. Fiden’s is my local micro brewery that just had its 1 year anniversary and already ranked top 15 in the world In ratings on untapped. This is really going to cause them to blow up
 

TBryerton

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If anyone here is within eq delivery or current distro, keep any eye for a collab with Fidens coming out in the next few weeks. Fiden’s is my local micro brewery that just had its 1 year anniversary and already ranked top 15 in the world In ratings on untapped. This is really going to cause them to blow up
I’ve tried them a few times now. Not bad, but all of their IPA’s have a very muddled flavor to them. It makes me think they’re dry hopping early in fermentation.
 

Dgallo

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I’ve tried them a few times now. Not bad, but all of their IPA’s have a very muddled flavor to them. It makes me think they’re dry hopping early in fermentation.
Have you gone to pick it up or have you gotten it through trades? It’s quite possible it’s oxidation since they are filling crowlers directly from the tap with a piece of hose, so they def do not have a low DO content. I typically only ever get the brand new release that is probably only in the crowlers for less than a few hours, so I haven’t experience muddled flavors myself
 

TBryerton

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Have you gone to pick it up or have you gotten it through trades? It’s quite possible it’s oxidation since they are filling crowlers directly from the tap with a piece of hose, so they def do not have a low DO content. I typically only ever get the brand new release that is probably only in the crowlers for less than a few hours, so I haven’t experience muddled flavors myself
Picked up at the brewery. It was much better fresh, as in same day.
 

brewval

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Wanted to share my latest hazy creation. Here’s a link for anyone looking for something new to brew.


Aroma and taste is of fresh cut pineapple, tangerine, and tropical fruit. I get the sleep threat coconut aroma from Sabro, but I have to look for it. Mouthfeel is creamy and full-bodied. Dangerous.

🟡 🟡

New England Hazy Double IPA
OG:1.078
FG: 1.015
ABV: 8.2%
IBUs: ~70
Mash PH: 5.2

61% Golden Promise
19% Flaked Oats
19% White wheat
1% Acid malt

FWH -Motueka ~13IBUs
2x Whirlpool: Columbus, Galaxy, Sabro
Double Dryhop: Galaxy and Sabro
Water chemistry: 111, 5, 0, 57, 169, 0
Yeast: second generation of London Ale 1318.
B7DAC849-4072-4C53-BD4A-BF56026AFBC4.jpeg
 

Noob_Brewer

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Wanted to share my latest hazy creation. Here’s a link for anyone looking for something new to brew.


Aroma and taste is of fresh cut pineapple, tangerine, and tropical fruit. I get the sleep threat coconut aroma from Sabro, but I have to look for it. Mouthfeel is creamy and full-bodied. Dangerous.

🟡 🟡

New England Hazy Double IPA
OG:1.078
FG: 1.015
ABV: 8.2%
IBUs: ~70
Mash PH: 5.2

61% Golden Promise
19% Flaked Oats
19% White wheat
1% Acid malt

FWH -Motueka ~13IBUs
2x Whirlpool: Columbus, Galaxy, Sabro
Double Dryhop: Galaxy and Sabro
Water chemistry: 111, 5, 0, 57, 169, 0
Yeast: second generation of London Ale 1318.View attachment 704133
Recipe looks good! although I HATE coconut and therefore don't use sabro in the least lol. Curious about the grain bill base malt choice. Ive done all 2-row or a split 50/50 between 2 row and golden promise, but never went 100% golden promise. Do you notice a difference in 100% GP vs 100% 2 row? Just curious really as Im not sure my palate is sophisticated enough to detect a difference lol. The color looks great on this though!
 

brewval

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Recipe looks good! although I HATE coconut and therefore don't use sabro in the least lol. Curious about the grain bill base malt choice. Ive done all 2-row or a split 50/50 between 2 row and golden promise, but never went 100% golden promise. Do you notice a difference in 100% GP vs 100% 2 row? Just curious really as Im not sure my palate is sophisticated enough to detect a difference lol. The color looks great on this though!
Have you tried Sabro yet? For me, I get a very strong aroma of ripe/freshly cut pineapple over coconut. The coconut was more of a “I think I smell it”.

I find GP to be a more rounded out and slightly sweeter. I find it brings more complexity to the beer when I’m brewing beers that have citrus/fruit flavors and aroma. Try a 100% GP beer and see what you think.
 

Beerdrinker85

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Wanted to share my latest hazy creation. Here’s a link for anyone looking for something new to brew.


Aroma and taste is of fresh cut pineapple, tangerine, and tropical fruit. I get the sleep threat coconut aroma from Sabro, but I have to look for it. Mouthfeel is creamy and full-bodied. Dangerous.

🟡 🟡

New England Hazy Double IPA
OG:1.078
FG: 1.015
ABV: 8.2%
IBUs: ~70
Mash PH: 5.2

61% Golden Promise
19% Flaked Oats
19% White wheat
1% Acid malt

FWH -Motueka ~13IBUs
2x Whirlpool: Columbus, Galaxy, Sabro
Double Dryhop: Galaxy and Sabro
Water chemistry: 111, 5, 0, 57, 169, 0
Yeast: second generation of London Ale 1318.

I am about to Dry Hop my NEIPA. I saw that you Dryhoped 4.5 OZ of sabro, did you find it too potent?
I was thinking about 2oz of sabro, 2oz of I7 and 1oz of mosaic cryo
 

brewval

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I am about to Dry Hop my NEIPA. I saw that you Dryhoped 4.5 OZ of sabro, did you find it too potent?
I was thinking about 2oz of sabro, 2oz of I7 and 1oz of mosaic cryo
Not at all. It, paired with Galaxy, gives an amazing ripe pineapple aroma. This is my first time using Sabro, but thoroughly enjoy this beer.
 

Noob_Brewer

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Have you tried Sabro yet? For me, I get a very strong aroma of ripe/freshly cut pineapple over coconut. The coconut was more of a “I think I smell it”.

I find GP to be a more rounded out and slightly sweeter. I find it brings more complexity to the beer when I’m brewing beers that have citrus/fruit flavors and aroma. Try a 100% GP beer and see what you think.
Thanks for the response. Yes, I have tried sabro in several beers, a couple generic commercial ones and a couple that were from solid craft breweries. While I appreciated that a couple of those beers were put together well, I just didn't like the taste of coconut in the least which is all I get from them despite being paired with other hops. To be honest I just think I have a low threshold for detecting coconut overall and have never liked the flavor at all. So with all the other hops available, Im actually glad just to cross one off the list that I "need" to buy lol.
 

Dgallo

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Thanks for the response. Yes, I have tried sabro in several beers, a couple generic commercial ones and a couple that were from solid craft breweries. While I appreciated that a couple of those beers were put together well, I just didn't like the taste of coconut in the least which is all I get from them despite being paired with other hops. To be honest I just think I have a low threshold for detecting coconut overall and have never liked the flavor at all. So with all the other hops available, Im actually glad just to cross one off the list that I "need" to buy lol.
I also get a lot of coconut from the Sabro I used. Even at low amounts used. The secondary note I get is lime
 

brewval

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Thanks for the response. Yes, I have tried sabro in several beers, a couple generic commercial ones and a couple that were from solid craft breweries. While I appreciated that a couple of those beers were put together well, I just didn't like the taste of coconut in the least which is all I get from them despite being paired with other hops. To be honest I just think I have a low threshold for detecting coconut overall and have never liked the flavor at all. So with all the other hops available, Im actually glad just to cross one off the list that I "need" to buy lol.
I also get a lot of coconut from the Sabro I used. Even at low amounts used. The secondary note I get is lime
I’m using 2019 lot of Sabro. Granted it’s blended with Columbus and Galaxy, I’m getting strong pineapple and tangerine. With the FWH addition of Motueka, it gives a slight lime and berry bitterness on the back end. I’m digging it.
 

olotti

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I also get a lot of coconut from the Sabro I used. Even at low amounts used. The secondary note I get is lime
I agree. I love sabro for the coconut/pineapple aspect. I’ll use it in the hopstand with other popular hazy hops but it really stand out in the dh thats when I get that crazy pina colada ie pineapple/coconut flavor which I really like. But that’s just me. Nelson is the same. It can be overpowering so I did a citra/Nelson hazy and the first was a 1:1 citra/Nelson DDH and it was all Nelson the second batch I did a 2:1 citra/nelson and it was a lot more balanced. Still git that distinct Nelson aroma and flavor but it was more balanced.
 

olotti

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So to those that soft crash here’s a question. So i soft crash at 32deg till my temp hits mid 50’s usually just a couple of hours. And since I soft crash in my keezer I’ll pull the fermenter set it out and let the temp rise to mid 60’s where it usually stabilizes then I’ll add my first dh. However I’ve noticed that within like hours that dh completely falls out. Is this normal? And am I doing this right? Feel like I, wasting hops if they just sit on top of the beer for 3 hrs then drop out. Or should I let the beer sit longer even thought the fermometer reads mid 60’s the internal temp is lower possibly dropping out the hops. So I’ll then wait a day or two then add the second dh which seems to hang better for a couple days before I cold crash.
 

MMP126

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Hey gents,

So, I had a little unintended experiment with the NEIPA I had, that had a burn and was overly bitter.

I had a one of them that I bottled for a competition, that was given back to me after. This was at the end of September, so, it has been in the bottle for like a month. While it was oxidized (it wasnt treated the best after I brought it back home), that bitter burn was 95% gone (still a tiny tiny twinge, but WAY better). And, the flavor was much better. I am thinking that this extended time out of the keg allowed everything to drop out, and really cleaned up that burn.

I surmise that the hop burn was what really killed my perceived flavor. So, I need a way to be sure to drop out all the hops/yeast/trub before I transfer to a keg.

For this batch, I did soft crash, and then dry hopped. Before I kegged, my notes say that I hard crashed it for like 36-48 hours, which may not have been enough time to ensure that everything dropped out (I had about 7gal of beer in the fermentor). How long do you all hard crash before you keg?

Ideally, I wish I could "drop the cone" and remove all the trub and hops and yeast, but I use Speidel fermentors, and its not really possible.

The thought that I am having trouble with, is that the beer was in the keg for 6 weeks total. And even near the end of the keg, I was still getting the bitter burn. I would think that I would have cleared out any settling hops by then, but it doesnt seem that way...not sure here.

My future plan is to do the following:

1. Do a longer hard crash, maybe like 2 or 3 full days?
2. Trim the dip tube on one of my kegs, so that if there is settling, I will pull beer that is above the settle out.
3. Down the road maybe (or if yall recommend), keg the beer, let it sit for a week or so, then do a keg/keg transfer into another "O2 Free" keg. This would allow the beer to settle, let stuff fall out, and then get the beer off that settle out. I am not sure if anyone is doing that, but it sounds like it may be beneficial.

Let me know what you guys think. Any feedback would be immensely appreciated!
 

R.A.I.D

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Hey gents,

So, I had a little unintended experiment with the NEIPA I had, that had a burn and was overly bitter.

I had a one of them that I bottled for a competition, that was given back to me after. This was at the end of September, so, it has been in the bottle for like a month. While it was oxidized (it wasnt treated the best after I brought it back home), that bitter burn was 95% gone (still a tiny tiny twinge, but WAY better). And, the flavor was much better. I am thinking that this extended time out of the keg allowed everything to drop out, and really cleaned up that burn.

I surmise that the hop burn was what really killed my perceived flavor. So, I need a way to be sure to drop out all the hops/yeast/trub before I transfer to a keg.

For this batch, I did soft crash, and then dry hopped. Before I kegged, my notes say that I hard crashed it for like 36-48 hours, which may not have been enough time to ensure that everything dropped out (I had about 7gal of beer in the fermentor). How long do you all hard crash before you keg?

Ideally, I wish I could "drop the cone" and remove all the trub and hops and yeast, but I use Speidel fermentors, and its not really possible.

The thought that I am having trouble with, is that the beer was in the keg for 6 weeks total. And even near the end of the keg, I was still getting the bitter burn. I would think that I would have cleared out any settling hops by then, but it doesnt seem that way...not sure here.

My future plan is to do the following:

1. Do a longer hard crash, maybe like 2 or 3 full days?
2. Trim the dip tube on one of my kegs, so that if there is settling, I will pull beer that is above the settle out.
3. Down the road maybe (or if yall recommend), keg the beer, let it sit for a week or so, then do a keg/keg transfer into another "O2 Free" keg. This would allow the beer to settle, let stuff fall out, and then get the beer off that settle out. I am not sure if anyone is doing that, but it sounds like it may be beneficial.

Let me know what you guys think. Any feedback would be immensely appreciated!
I cold crash 3-4 days to avoid hop burn. But the beer still needs about 2 weeks in the keg afterwards before the hop burn is gone.
 

brewval

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Hey gents,

So, I had a little unintended experiment with the NEIPA I had, that had a burn and was overly bitter.

I had a one of them that I bottled for a competition, that was given back to me after. This was at the end of September, so, it has been in the bottle for like a month. While it was oxidized (it wasnt treated the best after I brought it back home), that bitter burn was 95% gone (still a tiny tiny twinge, but WAY better). And, the flavor was much better. I am thinking that this extended time out of the keg allowed everything to drop out, and really cleaned up that burn.

I surmise that the hop burn was what really killed my perceived flavor. So, I need a way to be sure to drop out all the hops/yeast/trub before I transfer to a keg.

For this batch, I did soft crash, and then dry hopped. Before I kegged, my notes say that I hard crashed it for like 36-48 hours, which may not have been enough time to ensure that everything dropped out (I had about 7gal of beer in the fermentor). How long do you all hard crash before you keg?

Ideally, I wish I could "drop the cone" and remove all the trub and hops and yeast, but I use Speidel fermentors, and its not really possible.

The thought that I am having trouble with, is that the beer was in the keg for 6 weeks total. And even near the end of the keg, I was still getting the bitter burn. I would think that I would have cleared out any settling hops by then, but it doesnt seem that way...not sure here.

My future plan is to do the following:

1. Do a longer hard crash, maybe like 2 or 3 full days?
2. Trim the dip tube on one of my kegs, so that if there is settling, I will pull beer that is above the settle out.
3. Down the road maybe (or if yall recommend), keg the beer, let it sit for a week or so, then do a keg/keg transfer into another "O2 Free" keg. This would allow the beer to settle, let stuff fall out, and then get the beer off that settle out. I am not sure if anyone is doing that, but it sounds like it may be beneficial.

Let me know what you guys think. Any feedback would be immensely appreciated!
I don’t cold crash at all. Many variables are involved here, so please provide some details in your process and recipe.
 
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