New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[marchuk96]

Here's a link to an analysis of Tree House Julius, and Potassium is very high. I can't speak to how much of it is free and how much is bound though:

http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/ward-labs-mineral-analysis-of-tree-house-julius/

Some info from Martin B.... I recommend that calcium chloride is the preferred mineral for chloride additions. Calcium is quite benign in wort (flavorwise) and its also useful in depressing RA. That is a win-win situation. I don't see that benefit from KCl.
Potassium is an enigma in brewing. The malt supplies plenty to the wort, yet using a water with high potassium can be problematic. There are resources that report that having more than a minor amount of K in the water can be laxative. Ultimately, the recommendation is that brewers should avoid K at concentrations greater than 10 ppm...

Martin B

 

[beervoid]

Some info from Martin B.... I recommend that calcium chloride is the preferred mineral for chloride additions. Calcium is quite benign in wort (flavorwise) and its also useful in depressing RA. That is a win-win situation. I don't see that benefit from KCl.
Potassium is an enigma in brewing. The malt supplies plenty to the wort, yet using a water with high potassium can be problematic. There are resources that report that having more than a minor amount of K in the water can be laxative. Ultimately, the recommendation is that brewers should avoid K at concentrations greater than 10 ppm...

Martin B

Noonan's book brewing lager beer states a max Kcl ppm of 150

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Many people liberally shake "Salt Substitute" (KCl) onto each of their daily meals. In doing so they are taking in well more than would be consumed in a beer or two for which 10 gallons of water treatment included a few grams of KCl. And often they are doing this on the advice of their doctor.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Noonan's book brewing lager beer states a max Kcl ppm of 150

That would be a smidge less than 5.68 grams of KCl in 10 gallons of water if I computed it correctly.

And it would contribute 71 ppm Cl- and 79 ppm K+. Wherein 71 + 79 = 150

 

[rickyrich]

It's a beautiful hazy day here in SoCal, so it seemed to be the perfect time for me to break out my most recent neipa. This time I kept it simple and am pleased with the results.
I know there has been some discussion of Electric Brewing beers here in this thread, so pictured is their can release from yesterday next to mine for comparison. Also a couple pics of the brewhouse. (Note the bags of oat malt)
View attachment 624438
View attachment 624439
View attachment 624440

Hey Loud. Hope to meet you at an Electric release soon. What's the grain bill on this bad boy? My most recent one is in my Profile pic. Best one I made yet! I just want the color to be lighter. It's def soft and pillowy tho!

Thanks in advance for the info.

 

[WBCo]

Sounds like it might be better as a sparge addition versus mash to be safe

This is exactly how I utilize KCl. I add it directly to the kettle after the mash is complete.

Some info from Martin B.... I recommend that calcium chloride is the preferred mineral for chloride additions. Calcium is quite benign in wort (flavorwise) and its also useful in depressing RA. That is a win-win situation. I don't see that benefit from KCl.
Potassium is an enigma in brewing. The malt supplies plenty to the wort, yet using a water with high potassium can be problematic. There are resources that report that having more than a minor amount of K in the water can be laxative. Ultimately, the recommendation is that brewers should avoid K at concentrations greater than 10 ppm...

Martin B

I have learned a lot from reading Martin's work, but I use KCl in addition to CaCl when I want more chlorides and less calcium. High chlorides and high calcium water were producing negative effects for me in these beers. I'm not completely happy with my water profile, but I'm a lot closer with using some "alternative" salts than I was when I was just using CaCl and CaSO4.

 

[marchuk96]

This is exactly how I utilize KCl. I add it directly to the kettle after the mash is complete.



I have learned a lot from reading Martin's work, but I use KCl in addition to CaCl when I want more chlorides and less calcium. High chlorides and high calcium water were producing negative effects for me in these beers. I'm not completely happy with my water profile, but I'm a lot closer with using some "alternative" salts than I was when I was just using CaCl and CaSO4.

So if your adding to kettle after mash and your grain is supplying K already...how are you accurately calculating what amount of KCL to add without knowing how much K you already have present in your wort...and can you further describe the negative effect you are getting??

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

So if your adding to kettle after mash and your grain is supplying K already...how are you accurately calculating what amount of KCL to add without knowing how much K you already have present in your wort...and can you further describe the negative effect you are getting??

This analysis of multiple beers (at just past half way down the page) shows that K is far and away the most prevalent ion in finished beer. It seems unlikely that adding a bit more via the moderate use of KCl would lead to any sort of detrimental effects.

http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/ward-labs-mineral-analysis-of-tree-house-julius/

 

[WBCo]

So if your adding to kettle after mash and your grain is supplying K already...how are you accurately calculating what amount of KCL to add without knowing how much K you already have present in your wort...and can you further describe the negative effect you are getting??

I honestly can't calculate final potassium values, and I'm not interested in paying for testing at the moment. All I can calculate is what I'm adding. I started very low and have been making small adjustments each time I brew. I have a 5 stage RO filter with 2 RO cartridges, so I am using neutral and consistent water to start with. I have one "house IPA" that I keep fairly constant and use this recipe for tweaking because I feel like I know the beer well enough to notice any changes.

As far as negatives, the beer came across as chalky to me. For what it's worth, my wife has a better palate than I do and these beers never bothered her, but it wasn't what I was looking for.

 

[marchuk96]

I honestly can't calculate final potassium values, and I'm not interested in paying for testing at the moment. All I can calculate is what I'm adding. I started very low and have been making small adjustments each time I brew. I have a 5 stage RO filter with 2 RO cartridges, so I am using neutral and consistent water to start with. I have one "house IPA" that I keep fairly constant and use this recipe for tweaking because I feel like I know the beer well enough to notice any changes.

As far as negatives, the beer came across as chalky to me. For what it's worth, my wife has a better palate than I do and these beers never bothered her, but it wasn't what I was looking for.

Gotcha...I think that's a really good approach...not only do you basically get to brew a beer you love blind because you know it so well but tweak it along the way to your personal preference...and I get the chalky descriptor your talking about...i think my last beer presented a bit of this and I even detect it in many commercially produced beers...I think it depends how "chalky" it comes across ...at the right level i think its fine but it can get to the point where it finishes like liking a blackboard...

 

[SRJHops]

Good water discussion going... I'd like to add one about hops if anyone is interested. This topic is probably covered elsewhere, but I'm interested in hop schedules. Specifically:

1. Hot vs cold-side ratios. I've been doing 1:1 (50-50), using the same amount of hops for both hot and cold side additions. Is anyone finding increased success with different ratios? Say, 40 percent hot side and 60 percent dry hop? Or vice-versa?

2. Blended additions or single-hop additions? I tend to use the same blend of hops for all hot-side and cold-side additions. So, if I am using Citra, Mosaic, and Galaxy, I use 1 ounce of each for each addition. Would I get more punch if I added just one kind of hop for each addition?

3. Specific hops for hot side vs cold side. Are there specific hops you think are best for either the hot side or cold? For instance, I am pretty sure Citra is good for both hot and cold. But the other day I read that Simcoe might be best for cold side. I am of course most interested in the major NEIPA hops such as Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, El Dorado, Amarillo...

 

[marchuk96]

Good water discussion going... I'd like to add one about hops if anyone is interested. This topic is probably covered elsewhere, but I'm interested in hop schedules. Specifically:

1. Hot vs cold-side ratios. I've been doing 1:1 (50-50), using the same amount of hops for both hot and cold side additions. Is anyone finding increased success with different ratios? Say, 40 percent hot side and 60 percent dry hop? Or vice-versa?

2. Blended additions or single-hop additions? I tend to use the same blend of hops for all hot-side and cold-side additions. So, if I am using Citra, Mosaic, and Galaxy, I use 1 ounce of each for each addition. Would I get more punch if I added just one kind of hop for each addition?

3. Specific hops for hot side vs cold side. Are there specific hops you think are best for either the hot side or cold? For instance, I am pretty sure Citra is good for both hot and cold. But the other day I read that Simcoe might be best for cold side. I am of course most interested in the major NEIPA hops such as Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, El Dorado, Amarillo...

So...

1) I have had pretty good success doing any where from 1-4 oz in boil but way late say from 8 mins or less...recently even later like under 5 mins...it depends on alphas and if I'm doing a pale ale or IPA...also my ipas usually hit 12 oz total and my pales 8 oz total so anywhere from about 10% total hops hot side for pale ale to 30% IPA...my pales tend to be single hopped but IPA would usually be like 1-2 oz each of 2 hops late

2) I think blending is fine but varried amounts also work very well...blending for me seems to supply the beer with a uniformity from start to finish...by that I mean it tastes and smells exactly the same...and there is certainly nothing wrong with that...variations tend to give you a difference and a bit of depth from how it smells versus how it tastes...and it certainly matters if you use more of something say in boil or whirlpool versus dry hop...all hops react and present different variations of itself when used at different times...I made a beer which i have mentioned before with the same hops twice...citra galaxy and nelson...one version was heavier early with citra and heavy later with nelson...the second time I switched the citra and nelson and left galaxy the same in both beers...while similar the beer was also much different in aroma and flavor

3) I don't know if there is any answers to that...I think some hops probably do perform better when used at specific times but to give what is the best when is very tough for myself to pinpoint...while I have brewed quite a large amount of beer I by no means could say what might be a list of specific hops that would be ideal to use at certain points...I could speculate a bit based off what I've done and read but I don't think it wouldnt matter because some people yield different results from what other people have tried...typically a hop will provide a descriptor of when it is best used... so I like to go by that as a guideline...el Dorado for example says bittering and aroma...I have used it once or twice and found that it seems to be best suited as a dry hop hop in conjuction with something else...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Has anyone noticed from the Ward Labs analysis that Tree House Julius has 141 mg/L of alkalinity (as CaCO3)? They are potentially mashing it at a pH of 5.8 or higher, or otherwise somehow introducing alkalinity downstream (or both). By comparison Trillium's Heady Topper has the far more expected zero alkalinity. A huge difference.

EDIT: Of course since it has a finished beer pH of 4.6, it seems rather unlikely that the reported 141 ppm alkalinity measurement can be correct. HCO3- is all but gone by pH 4.3, and mostly gone by pH 4.5.

 

[SRJHops]

So...

1) I have had pretty good success doing any where from 1-4 oz in boil but way late say from 8 mins or less...recently even later like under 5 mins...it depends on alphas and if I'm doing a pale ale or IPA...also my ipas usually hit 12 oz total and my pales 8 oz total so anywhere from about 10% total hops hot side for pale ale to 30% IPA...my pales tend to be single hopped but IPA would usually be like 1-2 oz each of 2 hops late

2) I think blending is fine but varried amounts also work very well...blending for me seems to supply the beer with a uniformity from start to finish...by that I mean it tastes and smells exactly the same...and there is certainly nothing wrong with that...variations tend to give you a difference and a bit of depth from how it smells versus how it tastes...and it certainly matters if you use more of something say in boil or whirlpool versus dry hop...all hops react and present different variations of itself when used at different times...I made a beer which i have mentioned before with the same hops twice...citra galaxy and nelson...one version was heavier early with citra and heavy later with nelson...the second time I switched the citra and nelson and left galaxy the same in both beers...while similar the beer was also much different in aroma and flavor

3) I don't know if there is any answers to that...I think some hops probably do perform better when used at specific times but to give what is the best when is very tough for myself to pinpoint...while I have brewed quite a large amount of beer I by no means could say what might be a list of specific hops that would be ideal to use at certain points...I could speculate a bit based off what I've done and read but I don't think it wouldnt matter because some people yield different results from what other people have tried...typically a hop will provide a descriptor of when it is best used... so I like to go by that as a guideline...el Dorado for example says bittering and aroma...I have used it once or twice and found that it seems to be best suited as a dry hop hop in conjuction with something else...

Thanks -- just what I was looking for! So, for NEIPA's, if I understand... You are using 30% of the hops on the hot side, and 70% for dry hopping/cold side?

 

[marchuk96]

Thanks -- just what I was looking for! So, for NEIPA's, if I understand... You are using 30% of the hops on the hot side, and 70% for dry hopping/cold side?

Yes sir...roughly 3-4 oz in boil late...rest for whirlpool and dry hop

 

[WBCo]

1. Hot vs cold-side ratios. I've been doing 1:1 (50-50), using the same amount of hops for both hot and cold side additions. Is anyone finding increased success with different ratios? Say, 40 percent hot side and 60 percent dry hop? Or vice-versa?

I am actually somewhere around 40/60 kettle/fementor additions. This seems to be working fine, but I don't mind tweaking the ratios depending on what hops I have on hand. I really like to open fresh bags of hops for dry hopping.

2. Blended additions or single-hop additions? I tend to use the same blend of hops for all hot-side and cold-side additions. So, if I am using Citra, Mosaic, and Galaxy, I use 1 ounce of each for each addition. Would I get more punch if I added just one kind of hop for each addition?

I use both, depending on the recipe. As @marchuk96 mentioned, you can get different beers with the same hops so I use that to my advantage since there are only so many hops available.

3. Specific hops for hot side vs cold side. Are there specific hops you think are best for either the hot side or cold? For instance, I am pretty sure Citra is good for both hot and cold. But the other day I read that Simcoe might be best for cold side. I am of course most interested in the major NEIPA hops such as Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, El Dorado, Amarillo...

Again, for me this all depends on the hops. One thing I learned from pro brewers is that they never put subpar hops in for the dryhop. I try to emulate that and take it one step further by only dryhopping with freshly opened bags of hops. Sometimes this means an 8 oz bag of Citra, or the like, sometimes I open a couple different 2 oz bags. But so far quality is the only thing I use to determine whether a hop is destined for the kettle or the conical.

 

[SRJHops]

Yes sir...roughly 3-4 oz in boil late...rest for whirlpool and dry hop

Oh, I was including whirlpool as hot side. Maybe it's more clear to say kettle vs fermenter?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

el Dorado for example says bittering and aroma...I have used it once or twice and found that it seems to be best suited as a dry hop hop in conjuction with something else...

Don't get too hung up on "bittering" vs "aroma" - that's just the traditional classification in which "aroma" meant "useful at any point after 20 minutes or so, whether in the boil, whirlpool or dry hop"

It's a hugely complex area but in general the less volatile compounds like the terpenols that contribute citrus and floral notes tend to be best extracted in the whirlpool, whereas the more delicate aromas are best extracted in a dry hop. So it depends on the balance of compounds in the particular hop to start with, and what direction you want to push the balance of the chemicals you extract from it.

 

[SRJHops]

Don't get too hung up on "bittering" vs "aroma" - that's just the traditional classification in which "aroma" meant "useful at any point after 20 minutes or so, whether in the boil, whirlpool or dry hop"

It's a hugely complex area but in general the less volatile compounds like the terpenols that contribute citrus and floral notes tend to be best extracted in the whirlpool, whereas the more delicate aromas are best extracted in a dry hop. So it depends on the balance of compounds in the particular hop to start with, and what direction you want to push the balance of the chemicals you extract from it.

I think Janish was starting to list some of these in his recent BYO article. That is, which hops worked better for whirlpool vs dry hop. He didn't include all of them, though, and wondering about other people's experiences too. So much to learn!

On a related hops note, the other day I had a locally produced commercial NEIPA that I felt didn't quite work. Here are the hops they listed: Cryo Mosaic, Amarillo and Centennial. I have only brewed with Amarillo once and it didn't do much for me. But I think what I am not liking in this one is the Centennial, which gave it some pine notes.

 

[marchuk96]

Don't get too hung up on "bittering" vs "aroma" - that's just the traditional classification in which "aroma" meant "useful at any point after 20 minutes or so, whether in the boil, whirlpool or dry hop"

It's a hugely complex area but in general the less volatile compounds like the terpenols that contribute citrus and floral notes tend to be best extracted in the whirlpool, whereas the more delicate aromas are best extracted in a dry hop. So it depends on the balance of compounds in the particular hop to start with, and what direction you want to push the balance of the chemicals you extract from it.

Which is why I said guideline...the descriptors for use are basic...its a starting point to then say where do I think I want to use this...and even with the descriptor of use it can function great on either end...Columbus for example is a great bittering hop but is also excellent when used as a dry hop...

 

[ihavenonickname]

That is, which hops worked better for whirlpool vs dry hop. He didn't include all of them, though, and wondering about other people's experiences too. So much to learn

I recently asked the same thing here but didn't get much conversation going. I think it’s an interesting distinction to make and I’d love to hear others opinions on it. The example that stands out to me is Idaho 7 is apparently magic in the whirlpool in particular. Simcoe in the dry hop maybe risks catty-ness?

edit: typos and trying to not sound mean.

 

[Dgallo]

I recently asked the same thing here and it was ignored. I think it’s an I teresti g distinction to make and I’d love to hear others opinions on it. The. Example that stand out to me is Idaho 7 is apparently magic in the whirlpool in particular. Simcoe, maybe better in the whirlpool too?

The science on specific oils and terpenes are really starting to evolve. Breweries are capitalizing by adding hops at specific temps and times to extract them. I haven’t found much on it besides some of the compiled works of Janish and a few other. @Northern_Brewer touched on it just before for some of the compounds but here’s a quick snippet I found regarding some of the compounds. No temps included but you can look into it see if you come up with anything

 

[marchuk96]

4 MMP seems to be the ones that really hits home as far as overall performance for hops...note that c hops...citra cascade and centennial all fall within all the categories mentioned plus 4 MMP...some hops just outperform others...I think that's a given...finding what works is a different ballgame

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Again, for me this all depends on the hops. One thing I learned from pro brewers is that they never put subpar hops in for the dryhop. I try to emulate that and take it one step further by only dryhopping with freshly opened bags of hops. Sometimes this means an 8 oz bag of Citra, or the like, sometimes I open a couple different 2 oz bags. But so far quality is the only thing I use to determine whether a hop is destined for the kettle or the conical.

I listened to a podcast recently from one of the most popular breweries in my state. This was one of my biggest takeaways, amongst some other tidbits they dropped on recipe/process. They said they basically never leave open hop bags sitting around(when it gets opened, it gets used fresh). I've often bought in 8oz and sometimes even lb packages to save money, but it takes a bit to work through them. I try do all the things you're supposed to storage-wise, short of vacuum sealing but going forward I'm going to buy in small quantities. Although the lb bags I bought never got cheesy smelling I definitely noticed over time they lost their 'out of the bag' hop aroma, which had to have some affect on my final product.

 

[SRJHops]

The science on specific oils and terpenes are really starting to evolve. Breweries are capitalizing by adding hops at specific temps and times to extract them. I haven’t found much on it besides some of the compiled works of Janish and a few other. @Northern_Brewer touched on it just before for some of the compounds but here’s a quick snippet I found regarding some of the compounds. No temps included but you can look into it see if you come up with anything View attachment 625681View attachment 625682

I took your advice and dug a little deeper via Google, and came up with this interesting study, which suggests the whirlpool may be the key to hoppy flavor AND aroma:

Contributions of Select Hopping Regimes to the Terpenoid Content and Hop Aroma Profile of Ale and Lager Beers
Daniel C. Sharp, Yanping Qian, Gina Shellhammer & Thomas H. Shellhammer

"Whirlpool additions produced beers with the highest concentrations of geraniol, linalool, and β-citronellol;.."

"This research shows that despite the popularity of dry hopping as an aroma hopping method, whirlpool additions can produce more intensely aromatic beers."

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1094/ASBCJ-2017-2144-01

This obviously does not mean we should skip dry hopping, but it does make me wonder if 60:40 or even 70:30 hot side vs cold side might be the way to go. Plus, combine this with Janish's suggestion that smaller and more frequent dry hop amounts leads to better results.

 

[jakturner]

Perhaps. But we need a common reference point, or else we're just looking a pretty photos of beers. The BJCP guidelines are used to judge beers, as you know, from the GABF to local competitions. Curious if you would disagree with anything in them? That is of course OK...

http://dev.bjcp.org/beer-styles/21b-specialty-ipa-new-england-ipa/

-"Brewers are continuing to innovate and evolve the style, with the style trending towards a less bitter presentation to the point of making a mockery of the term “IPA”."

Seems like the BJCP is a little salty about adding this style.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

to the point of making a mockery of the term “IPA”."

Seems like the BJCP is a little salty about adding this style.

Now they know how the British feel about any IPA that doesn't involve Goldings...

 

[mergs]

"A modern craft beer style originating in the New England region of the United States. Alchemist Heady Topper is believed to be the original example and inspiration for many other interpretations that grew in popularity in the early to mid-2010s."

I remember having many many fantastic beers at the old Alchemist Pub & Brewery during this time. Every beer was a treat and I do remember my first Heady Topper, at the time I was more into darker styles but this one blew my mind. But every beer from the Alchemist was an adventure back then. Here's a shot I stumbled upon a few days ago going through old photos that *might* be HT (I believe it was). This was taken early Sep 2010 which was 11 months before Waterbury flooded from Hurricane Irene in Aug 2011 which flooded the tap room and forced the Alchemist to "higher ground".

 

[tld6008]

I listened to a podcast recently from one of the most popular breweries in my state. This was one of my biggest takeaways, amongst some other tidbits they dropped on recipe/process. They said they basically never leave open hop bags sitting around(when it gets opened, it gets used fresh). I've often bought in 8oz and sometimes even lb packages to save money, but it takes a bit to work through them. I try do all the things you're supposed to storage-wise, short of vacuum sealing but going forward I'm going to buy in small quantities. Although the lb bags I bought never got cheesy smelling I definitely noticed over time they lost their 'out of the bag' hop aroma, which had to have some affect on my final product.

I normally buy my hops by the pound and store all of them in the freezer and vacuum seal any package that has been opened. We use a vacuum sealer for all kinds of food storage and having it for the hops makes it easy. I would definitely worry about spoilage if they were not stored like this. I had one batch of Citra that was suspect but it was like that when received.

 

[SRJHops]

"A modern craft beer style originating in the New England region of the United States. Alchemist Heady Topper is believed to be the original example and inspiration for many other interpretations that grew in popularity in the early to mid-2010s."

I remember having many many fantastic beers at the old Alchemist Pub & Brewery during this time. Every beer was a treat and I do remember my first Heady Topper, at the time I was more into darker styles but this one blew my mind. But every beer from the Alchemist was an adventure back then. Here's a shot I stumbled upon a few days ago going through old photos that *might* be HT (I believe it was). This was taken early Sep 2010 which was 11 months before Waterbury flooded from Hurricane Irene in Aug 2011 which flooded the tap room and forced the Alchemist to "higher ground".

Total props to the Alchemist for inventing the style. I've never had Heady Topper, but wondering if your thoughts about it have changed over the years? My sense is that some folks now see it almost as a precursor to the current NEIPA's, which are getting ever more juicy.