New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Northern_Brewer]

Thanks! (I meant US gallons.) So, for that study using those hops (I think it was Cascade), Shellhammer was looking at dry hop rates and aroma/flavor. He concluded that using more than that amount (about 1 oz per gallon for dry hopping) does not lead to more aroma/flavor.

4-8g/l is optimal in his system, with that particular hop (Cascade). Anecdotally people seem to think about double that is best for the typical CMG hazy at homebrew scale - probably a combination of lower utilisation and just the kind of chemicals you're trying to extract. The terpenols that give you citrus and floral flavours are much more abundant than the thiols that give you tropical flavours, so you can imagine the dosing will be different.

On an unrelated note, I recently saw a chart comparing beta-glucosidase activity among the Lallemand dry yeasts, BRY-97, Belle and their New England had 50% more activity than the others. BRY-97 is a bit of a peculiar yeast but I suspect people should be using it more. The big advantage with commercial dry yeast of course is that you don't really need to aerate your wort for the benefit of the yeast, as they already have reserves of the sterols that yeast can only make with oxygen. Bit of an overpitch wouldn't hurt though, based on ~20 billion cells per gram. It's notable that eg Cloudwater used to use WLP095 and WLP4000 but now seem to have moved to the Lallemand dry version.

 

[kaz4121]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I followed up the mineral analysis with beverage analytics of Tree House Julius here: http://thirdleapbrew.com/technical/beverage-analytics-of-tree-house-julius/

Analysis Method Results Units

Color ASBC Beer 10-A 10.8 SRM

pH ASBC Beer 9 4.60 –

Turbidity ASBC Beer 27-B 1821 NTU

Protein Discrete Analyzer 8.1 g/L

ABV ASBC Beer 4 7.10 % v/v

Density ASBC Beer 4 1.01346 g/mL

Specific Gravity ASBC Beer 4 1.01454 –

Apparent Extract ASBC Beer 4 3.72 % w/w

Real Extract ASBC Beer 4 6.18 % w/w

Attenuation ASBC Beer 4 64.7 %

CO2 ASBC Beer 4 4.6 g/L

DO ASBC Beer 4 0.004 mg/L

Bitterness ASBC Beer 23 121 IBU

 

[jammin]

@Northern_Brewer - that’s interesting info. Can you break it down for the lay person on what that beta.... activity means & how it translates to in the glass? What would you say the difference between the BRY-97 & New England would be?

 

[Hannabrew]

10.8 SRM? That seems high right?

 

[kaz4121]

10.8 SRM? That seems high right?

Yes, but only if you ignore turbidity and how it impacts the SRM assay. I wrote about it in more detail on my blog post, but in short, I would aim for a calculated SRM of 6-7 (via brewing software - which ignores turbidity) to achieve a measured SRM of 10.8.

 

[Hannabrew]

Yes, but only if you ignore turbidity and how it impacts the SRM assay. I wrote about it in more detail on my blog post, but in short, I would aim for a calculated SRM of 6-7 (via brewing software - which ignores turbidity) to achieve a measured SRM of 10.8.

That's right about where I am at

 

[isomerization]

@Northern_Brewer - that’s interesting info. Can you break it down for the lay person on what that beta.... activity means & how it translates to in the glass? What would you say the difference between the BRY-97 & New England would be?

Short answer is that Beta-glucosidase enzyme can liberate aromatic compounds (from hops) that would otherwise not have had an aromatic contribution. Most brewing Sacc strains are lacking in this area (strong suit of Brett strains though).

See slides 6-7 of this pdf:
https://cdn.uclouvain.be/public/Exports reddot/inbr/documents/presentation-luk-daenen.pdf

 

[nick sekerak]

Next NEIPA Recipe- I want to go after that crazy color Electric Brewery is putting out. Has anyone know what base malts these guys may use to get so bright and neon light color. I am thinking all pilsen malt and flaked oats and flaked rice.

 

[Dgallo]

Next NEIPA Recipe- I want to go after that crazy color Electric Brewery is putting out. Has anyone know what base malts these guys may use to get so bright and neon light color. I am thinking all pilsen malt and flaked oats and flaked rice.View attachment 622868

Head looks pretty tight so it might also be flaked wheat or barely

 

[marchuk96]

Next NEIPA Recipe- I want to go after that crazy color Electric Brewery is putting out. Has anyone know what base malts these guys may use to get so bright and neon light color. I am thinking all pilsen malt and flaked oats and flaked rice.View attachment 622868

Definetly nice and bright...I'd have to agree with pilsner malt...two row or golden promise being the only other options...they are all basically 2 srm...the percentage of either of those two is more likely to be a bigger factor...they may make up a smaller portion of there grain bill than a "typical" IPA and then they just fill in the remainder with oats or wheat or rice as you suggested...the beer I just made is projected to come in at 4.4 SRM...67% golden promise...20%malted oats...7% flaked barley and 7% flaked wheat...while the g.p. ,wheat, and barley all have an srm of 2 the oats are a 1...so again I think your percentage is going to come into play more so than actual grain choice...

 

[isomerization]

Definetly nice and bright...I'd have to agree with pilsner malt...two row or golden promise being the only other options...they are all basically 2 srm...the percentage of either of those two is more likely to be a bigger factor...they may make up a smaller portion of there grain bill than a "typical" IPA and then they just fill in the remainder with oats or wheat or rice as you suggested...the beer I just made is projected to come in at 4.4 SRM...67% golden promise...20%malted oats...7% flaked barley and 7% flaked wheat...while the g.p. ,wheat, and barley all have an srm of 2 the oats are a 1...so again I think your percentage is going to come into play more so than actual grain choice...

I believe GP is 3 Lovibond, which is not insignificant with this style, just FYI.

 

[nick sekerak]

Definetly nice and bright...I'd have to agree with pilsner malt...two row or golden promise being the only other options...they are all basically 2 srm...the percentage of either of those two is more likely to be a bigger factor...they may make up a smaller portion of there grain bill than a "typical" IPA and then they just fill in the remainder with oats or wheat or rice as you suggested...the beer I just made is projected to come in at 4.4 SRM...67% golden promise...20%malted oats...7% flaked barley and 7% flaked wheat...while the g.p. ,wheat, and barley all have an srm of 2 the oats are a 1...so again I think your percentage is going to come into play more so than actual grain choice...

I've been creeping them on instagram to see if they accidentally slip any info on the recipes, and most of their beers the say 40-50% oats(type not specified). That seem nuts to me, i have never used more than the low 20's percent range.

Has anyone ever tried a 50% flaked oat grain bill for a NEIPA??

 

[Dgallo]

I've been creeping them on instagram to see if they accidentally slip any info on the recipes, and most of their beers the say 40-50% oats(type not specified). That seem nuts to me, i have never used more than the low 20's percent range.

Has anyone ever tried a 50% flaked oat grain bill for a NEIPA??

Not 50% but that last beer I posted was like 32% malted oats and then 10% flaked barley (rechecked my numbers, was incorrect in my original post) big body but soft and creamy

 

[marchuk96]

Not 50% but that last beer I posted was like 32% malted wheat and then 10% flaked barley (rechecked my numbers, was incorrect in my original post) big body but soft and creamy

Edit on behalf of @Dgallo...32% malted oats...not wheat...and I'd say they are using malted oats and not flaked oats...

 

[Dgallo]

Edit on behalf of @Dgallo...32% malted oats...not wheat...and I'd say they are using malted oats and not flaked oats...

Fixed

 

[nick sekerak]

I didn’t consider malted oats... hmm that may be it. They are 4*Lovibond that’s pretty light too.

Are the considered a base malt or specialty malt?

 

[marchuk96]

I didn’t consider malted oats... hmm that may be it. They are 4*Lovibond that’s pretty light too.

Are the considered a base malt or specialty malt?

Color actually ranges from like 1.7* l - 4* l...and it is considered a base malt...it def provides a ton of body and creaminess based on @Dgallo beer and my post boil wort and hydro samples...

 

[Dgallo]

I didn’t consider malted oats... hmm that may be it. They are 4*Lovibond that’s pretty light too.

Are the considered a base malt or specialty malt?

The malted oats is a better call over flaked oats when your using them in a high percentage of the grain bill for 2 reasons. The first reason is the mash, malted oats has husk which will help prevent stuck sparges like you would see using that much flaked oats. The second reason goes to the size of the molecular proteins. Flaked oats have larger molecular protein and will actually floc out much quicker than malted oats, pulling hop oils and compounds that are positively attracted down with them.

 

[isomerization]

The malted oats is a better call over flaked oats when your using them in a high percentage of the grain bill for 2 reasons. The first reason is the mash, malted oats has husk which will help prevent stuck sparges like you would see using that much flaked oats. The second reason goes to the size of the molecular proteins. Flaked oats have larger molecular protein and will actually floc out much quicker than malted oats, pulling hop oils and compounds that are positively attracted down with them.

Can you clarify what you mean by larger molecular proteins? Like the flaking process causing protein aggregation? Or is it a higher percentage of protein? Thanks!

 

[Dgallo]

Can you clarify what you mean by larger molecular proteins? Like the flaking process causing protein aggregation? Or is it a higher percentage of protein? Thanks!

The malting process degrades the proteins of grains and actual causes them to become smaller. Unmalted grains since they aren’t degrading will have a higher molecular weight. Flaked oats are unmalted. This comes from “Ambiguous Impact of Wheat Gluten Proteins on the Colloidal Haze of Wheat Beers. (2003). Journal of the American Society of Brewing Chemists. doi:10.1094/asbcj-61”. Janish outlines it here;

 

[isomerization]

The malting process degrades the proteins of grains and actual causes them to become smaller. Unmalted grains since they aren’t degrading will have a higher molecular weight. Flaked oats are unmalted. This comes from “Ambiguous Impact of Wheat Gluten Proteins on the Colloidal Haze of Wheat Beers. (2003). Journal of the American Society of Brewing Chemists. doi:10.1094/asbcj-61”. Janish outlines it here;View attachment 623006

Very cool, thanks! I wonder if this phenomenon applies to all grain types (barley, oats, rye etc) since this specifically mentions wheat. I’d assume so, but wheat glutens are specifically mentioned and I believe oats are gluten free?

 

[Dgallo]

Very cool, thanks! I wonder if this phenomenon applies to all grain types (barley, oats, rye etc) since this specifically mentions wheat. I’d assume so, but wheat glutens are specifically mentioned and I believe oats are gluten free?

Yeah oats are gluten free. I would assume the breakdown would apply to all proteins since I have seen in first hand with my most recent beer using malted oats vs. flaked oats or flaked wheat as I would usually . This beer is holding on to its haze complete. Been in the keg 3 weeks yesterday and no change in clarity. Typically when using flaked grains, I would have some clarification happening already, not saying they would be clear but would def have settled more after 3 weeks.

 

[Genuine]

Did my 3rd batch yesterday only to find out when I ordered 10lb's of White Wheat Malt....I didn't pay close enough attention and actually ordered 10lb's of Raw Unmalted White Wheat....and didn't do a protein rest at 120 degrees...just milled and mashed at 154 for an hour. That explained missing my pre boil gravity by 5 points.

 

[rickyrich]

Want to thank everyone for all the info on this thread! My latest attempt at the style.

 

[marchuk96]

Want to thank everyone for all the info on this thread! My latest attempt at the style. View attachment 623125View attachment 623126

Looks scrumptious!!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Can you break it down for the lay person on what that beta.... activity means & how it translates to in the glass?

isomerization got there before me, but in short glucosidases look like they're going to be the Next Big Thing in the world of hoppy beer. Typically 50% or more (it varies with hop variety) of the aroma compounds in hops are chemically locked up in the form of glycosides and are not available to the wort in that form. So in theory, if you could release them all, then you could get double the hoppiness from a given weight of hops, or the same amount of hoppiness from half the weight (and $$$/£££/€€€) of hops.

Beta-glucosidase is the main enzyme you need to release these bound compounds. There's two main ways to get it into your wort, either as a pure enzyme or by adding microorganisms that release the enzyme into their environment to break down their "food". I suspect that most commercial brewers will end up adding pure enzyme as it's more repeatable and controllable, but I suspect that only the more advanced homebrewers (including many here) will go that route. As mentioned above, beer yeast strains produce little of this enzyme, so the fact that BRY-97 and NE produce 50% more may not be too significant, as the difference between "not much" and "a bit more than not much". But it is worth investigating, it may be one reason why Conan became popular in the first place. Bretts are the kings for this stuff, Scott Janish used Brett to release bound aroma compounds in peaches.

What would you say the difference between the BRY-97 & New England would be?

In what terms? BRY-97 is a clean US-style yeast, Lallemand New England is a member of the Conan family so is more British in character.

 

[braindead]

I just brewed a West Coast IPA so wasn't really looking for the Haze. Used BRY-97 and have to say it created the most stunning NEIPA looking beer ive ever brewed..lol
Pure accident obviously, months later it still hasn't dropped bright either

 

[Dgallo]

I’ve never enjoyed bry-97. Any beer I’ve ever made with it showed a harsher bitterness. I’ve done a comparison brew with a Mosiac/Simcoe combo and the one with bry-97 did present more bitterness.

 

[marchuk96]

I believe GP is 3 Lovibond, which is not insignificant with this style, just FYI.

It really depends on maltster...1.7-3.9 is the range between them all...

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Very cool info on the beta-glucos. Has anyone tried Lallemand NE dry yeast compared to the popular NEIPA yeasts(conan, LA3)? Looks like it's only sold in 500g satchels. I seem to recall reading posts of people not thinking too highly of it but I could be wrong.