New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[isomerization]

The malting process degrades the proteins of grains and actual causes them to become smaller. Unmalted grains since they aren’t degrading will have a higher molecular weight. Flaked oats are unmalted. This comes from “Ambiguous Impact of Wheat Gluten Proteins on the Colloidal Haze of Wheat Beers. (2003). Journal of the American Society of Brewing Chemists. doi:10.1094/asbcj-61”. Janish outlines it here;View attachment 623006

Very cool, thanks! I wonder if this phenomenon applies to all grain types (barley, oats, rye etc) since this specifically mentions wheat. I’d assume so, but wheat glutens are specifically mentioned and I believe oats are gluten free?

 

[Dgallo]

Very cool, thanks! I wonder if this phenomenon applies to all grain types (barley, oats, rye etc) since this specifically mentions wheat. I’d assume so, but wheat glutens are specifically mentioned and I believe oats are gluten free?

Yeah oats are gluten free. I would assume the breakdown would apply to all proteins since I have seen in first hand with my most recent beer using malted oats vs. flaked oats or flaked wheat as I would usually . This beer is holding on to its haze complete. Been in the keg 3 weeks yesterday and no change in clarity. Typically when using flaked grains, I would have some clarification happening already, not saying they would be clear but would def have settled more after 3 weeks.

 

[Genuine]

Did my 3rd batch yesterday only to find out when I ordered 10lb's of White Wheat Malt....I didn't pay close enough attention and actually ordered 10lb's of Raw Unmalted White Wheat....and didn't do a protein rest at 120 degrees...just milled and mashed at 154 for an hour. That explained missing my pre boil gravity by 5 points.

 

[rickyrich]

Want to thank everyone for all the info on this thread! My latest attempt at the style.

 

[marchuk96]

Want to thank everyone for all the info on this thread! My latest attempt at the style. View attachment 623125View attachment 623126

Looks scrumptious!!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Can you break it down for the lay person on what that beta.... activity means & how it translates to in the glass?

isomerization got there before me, but in short glucosidases look like they're going to be the Next Big Thing in the world of hoppy beer. Typically 50% or more (it varies with hop variety) of the aroma compounds in hops are chemically locked up in the form of glycosides and are not available to the wort in that form. So in theory, if you could release them all, then you could get double the hoppiness from a given weight of hops, or the same amount of hoppiness from half the weight (and $$$/£££/€€€) of hops.

Beta-glucosidase is the main enzyme you need to release these bound compounds. There's two main ways to get it into your wort, either as a pure enzyme or by adding microorganisms that release the enzyme into their environment to break down their "food". I suspect that most commercial brewers will end up adding pure enzyme as it's more repeatable and controllable, but I suspect that only the more advanced homebrewers (including many here) will go that route. As mentioned above, beer yeast strains produce little of this enzyme, so the fact that BRY-97 and NE produce 50% more may not be too significant, as the difference between "not much" and "a bit more than not much". But it is worth investigating, it may be one reason why Conan became popular in the first place. Bretts are the kings for this stuff, Scott Janish used Brett to release bound aroma compounds in peaches.

What would you say the difference between the BRY-97 & New England would be?

In what terms? BRY-97 is a clean US-style yeast, Lallemand New England is a member of the Conan family so is more British in character.

 

[braindead]

I just brewed a West Coast IPA so wasn't really looking for the Haze. Used BRY-97 and have to say it created the most stunning NEIPA looking beer ive ever brewed..lol
Pure accident obviously, months later it still hasn't dropped bright either

 

[Dgallo]

I’ve never enjoyed bry-97. Any beer I’ve ever made with it showed a harsher bitterness. I’ve done a comparison brew with a Mosiac/Simcoe combo and the one with bry-97 did present more bitterness.

 

[marchuk96]

I believe GP is 3 Lovibond, which is not insignificant with this style, just FYI.

It really depends on maltster...1.7-3.9 is the range between them all...

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Very cool info on the beta-glucos. Has anyone tried Lallemand NE dry yeast compared to the popular NEIPA yeasts(conan, LA3)? Looks like it's only sold in 500g satchels. I seem to recall reading posts of people not thinking too highly of it but I could be wrong.

 

[nick sekerak]

Here is my grain bill I came up with to attempt at the Electric Brewery color:

8 gallons in FV
67% BHE
38.5% Extra Pilsen # 10
38.5% Malted oats # 10
7.7% Flaked wheat # 2
15.4% Flaked rice # 4
26 pounds total

EST og 1.075
EST SRM 3.93
EST ABV 7.4%

I’ll post pics after it’s finished. Thanks for everyone’s input!!! If anyone has any other recommendations chime in. I will not be brewing till next weekend

 

[isomerization]

It really depends on maltster...1.7-3.9 is the range between them all...

Fair point, I’d always used Fawcett (and Brewersfriend has 3.0 L as default). It looks like Simpson GP is 1.1 L, crazy!

 

[ttuato]

isomerization got there before me, but in short glucosidases look like they're going to be the Next Big Thing in the world of hoppy beer. Typically 50% or more (it varies with hop variety) of the aroma compounds in hops are chemically locked up in the form of glycosides and are not available to the wort in that form. So in theory, if you could release them all, then you could get double the hoppiness from a given weight of hops, or the same amount of hoppiness from half the weight (and $$$/£££/€€€) of hops.

Beta-glucosidase is the main enzyme you need to release these bound compounds. There's two main ways to get it into your wort, either as a pure enzyme or by adding microorganisms that release the enzyme into their environment to break down their "food". I suspect that most commercial brewers will end up adding pure enzyme as it's more repeatable and controllable, but I suspect that only the more advanced homebrewers (including many here) will go that route. As mentioned above, beer yeast strains produce little of this enzyme, so the fact that BRY-97 and NE produce 50% more may not be too significant, as the difference between "not much" and "a bit more than not much". But it is worth investigating, it may be one reason why Conan became popular in the first place. Bretts are the kings for this stuff, Scott Janish used Brett to release bound aroma compounds in peaches.



In what terms? BRY-97 is a clean US-style yeast, Lallemand New England is a member of the Conan family so is more British in character.

I have used Rapidase several times and cannot tell any difference. In all fairness Conan is my "go to" yeast... On the flip side, I think your earlier comment about using more hops to release more thiols is the next big thing.

(FYI - The 100g jar of Rapidase is enough for 200gal at recommended dose rate of 0.5g per 5gal in beer)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/exogenous-beta-glucosidase.641079/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/unlocking-hop-and-fruit-flavors-from-glycosides.html

 

[marchuk96]

I have used Rapidase several times and cannot tell any difference. In all fairness Conan is my "go to" yeast... On the flip side, I think your earlier comment about using more hops to release more thiols is the next big thing.

(FYI - The 100g jar of Rapidase is enough for 200gal at recommended dose rate of 0.5g per 5gal in beer)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/exogenous-beta-glucosidase.641079/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/unlocking-hop-and-fruit-flavors-from-glycosides.html

The youtube link to a beersmith podcast i posted a few pages back touched on all this...it was very in depth and really quite hard to digest but it seems we have a ways to go in terms of really maximizing what good hops really can bring to the table...as mentioned in the link I posted it seems for now as homebrewers the best thing we can do is look for hops high in geraniol and linalool...these seem to be the ones that really contribute big tropical fruity flavors and aromas that we strive to achieve in our beers...he even gives a list of hops that are highest in these two categories, most of which are no surprise, and mentions 2 that he felt were greatly overlooked...summit and bravo...I think I used summit once but a very long time ago and never bravo although it has always grabbed my attention...the chase never ends!!!

 

[stickyfinger]

After brewing many of these beers (and other hoppy IPAs) I think I've finally solved a lot of my prior issues slowly thanks to experience and advice from everyone here. Some of you may benefit from this simple advice if you are disappointed in some of your IPAs. I've used all of these techniques separately, but I finally put them all together and am very happy with the results. It's very simple, but for some reason it took me awhile to realize it, but better late than never. We've all probably thought about 1) cans of commercial NEIPA tasting great after several weeks and also 2) about inverting the cans (or kegs) before pouring to get more particulate into suspension (more flavor in the particulate) and about 3) low oxygen being a major key to great IPA flavor. I've tried a few brews now the following way, and I really like the results:

I ferment in my corny kegs with a CBDS (or sometimes in my 6.5G carboys again!), dry hop during fermentation or after dropping yeast some or whatever you like to do (still playing around with that myself!) Let the beer spund or force carb it in primary (or rack it before carbonating if using a glass/plastic carboy obviously) and then let it rest in your keezer for a few days to a week, sampling as you want. Then, once the really big particulate and hops pieces have dropped out (to prevent any clogging of poppets, etc.) transfer to a purged keg.

I have had issues using the closed system transfer with carbonated beer in kegs (bev to bev line and gas to gas line on the kegs with a gravity transfer), so my new SOP is to hook up my primary keg with the CBDS at like 20 psi using the CO2 cylinder and push it to the receiving keg with a spunding valve on the receiving keg gas post set at like 12-15 psi (thank you whoever mentioned this method in an earlier post - works great!) When the primary keg starts sputtering, disconnect it all and you are good to go. No loss of siphon and great, O2-free transfer. Yes, there may be a miniscule aroma loss from the spund valve, but I doubt it is much, and it prevents the dreaded stuck transfer that I have experienced.

I used to just serve off of primary using the CBDS but there are two issues that have slowly revealed themselves to me. One, you can start to get some yeasty flavors or weird hop flavors on some batches I think, especially with more time and more importantly, the delicious particulate/protein-hop suspensions can start to drop out of the beer leaving the beer to start tasting less hoppy as it starts to clear more and more. This is especially true with the CBDS, which serves from the top of the keg. I have actually had beers start out hazy, clarify up quite a bit and then after several pours, start to get cloudy and tastier again as the CBDS catches up to the dropping particulate in the lower portion of the keg! It still tastes good, but I really like all of that hazy hoppiness just like you just racked it the day before to stay in the beer and be more consistent.

Soooo, once you have the receiving keg full of your delicious beer (with a normal dip tube in the receiving keg) put it into your keezer and serve at will. Periodically, just lift the keg out of the keezer and tip it over the edge of the keezer and rock it a few times over the lip of the keezer and back to mix it all up. It sounds stupid, but you will be mixing in the hops (and some yeast of course but i don't mind at all as long as you have racked when the yeast has dropped out some from primary) and protein back into solution. After inverting the keg you will notice the beer is hazier and gets a hop boost if you haven't done it for awhile. I really think this is a great way to keep the beer tasting more like a can of IPA that you have mixed up and consumed. That's it, no genius insight, but putting it all together has resulted in great, long-lasting hazy, delicious beer for me. I was always wondering why a perfectly O2-free beer started tasting less hoppy to me. I think you have to rack and invert the keg to keep the hop levels at the absolute maximum.

Just a side note on CO2-purging: I've tried purging the receiving keg with fermentation gas from a keg to keg purge as well as a 6.5G glass carboy to keg purge. Both seem to work great. I'd recommend investing a little time to hook up whatever primary you have to a sanitized keg on brew day and just let it go until you need to disconnect it for dry hopping or whatever. It's awesome to be able to just go down and grab the sanitized, purged keg that is ready to receive the primary wort when it is time to rack. No fussing with filling it with star san or water and pushing it all out, etc. My only concern has been not blowing up my glass carboy (which I use if I need a full 5G to the serving keg or if I am out of clean kegs to use to ferment with) doing this if something gets clogged. So far it has worked well for me when I've tried it with carboys, but I suppose it could go wrong if there is a blowoff clog. I try to not fill my primary too full and I use anti-foam.

Anyway, that was long-winded, but give this a try if you feel like you're still not getting long-lasting hop flavor even though you've implemented one or more of the techniques that we've learned about from everyone on this thread. I am starting to think of my final serving keg as a very large can of IPA that needs to be rolled around before serving! yum!

 

[jakturner]

After brewing many of these beers (and other hoppy IPAs) I think I've finally solved a lot of my prior issues slowly thanks to experience and advice from everyone here. Some of you may benefit from this simple advice if you are disappointed in some of your IPAs. I've used all of these techniques separately, but I finally put them all together and am very happy with the results. It's very simple, but for some reason it took me awhile to realize it, but better late than never. We've all probably thought about 1) cans of commercial NEIPA tasting great after several weeks and also 2) about inverting the cans (or kegs) before pouring to get more particulate into suspension (more flavor in the particulate) and about 3) low oxygen being a major key to great IPA flavor. I've tried a few brews now the following way, and I really like the results:

I ferment in my corny kegs with a CBDS (or sometimes in my 6.5G carboys again!), dry hop during fermentation or after dropping yeast some or whatever you like to do (still playing around with that myself!) Let the beer spund or force carb it in primary (or rack it before carbonating if using a glass/plastic carboy obviously) and then let it rest in your keezer for a few days to a week, sampling as you want. Then, once the really big particulate and hops pieces have dropped out (to prevent any clogging of poppets, etc.) transfer to a purged keg.

I have had issues using the closed system transfer with carbonated beer in kegs (bev to bev line and gas to gas line on the kegs with a gravity transfer), so my new SOP is to hook up my primary keg with the CBDS at like 20 psi using the CO2 cylinder and push it to the receiving keg with a spunding valve on the receiving keg gas post set at like 12-15 psi (thank you whoever mentioned this method in an earlier post - works great!) When the primary keg starts sputtering, disconnect it all and you are good to go. No loss of siphon and great, O2-free transfer. Yes, there may be a miniscule aroma loss from the spund valve, but I doubt it is much, and it prevents the dreaded stuck transfer that I have experienced.

I used to just serve off of primary using the CBDS but there are two issues that have slowly revealed themselves to me. One, you can start to get some yeasty flavors or weird hop flavors on some batches I think, especially with more time and more importantly, the delicious particulate/protein-hop suspensions can start to drop out of the beer leaving the beer to start tasting less hoppy as it starts to clear more and more. This is especially true with the CBDS, which serves from the top of the keg. I have actually had beers start out hazy, clarify up quite a bit and then after several pours, start to get cloudy and tastier again as the CBDS catches up to the dropping particulate in the lower portion of the keg! It still tastes good, but I really like all of that hazy hoppiness just like you just racked it the day before to stay in the beer and be more consistent.

Soooo, once you have the receiving keg full of your delicious beer (with a normal dip tube in the receiving keg) put it into your keezer and serve at will. Periodically, just lift the keg out of the keezer and tip it over the edge of the keezer and rock it a few times over the lip of the keezer and back to mix it all up. It sounds stupid, but you will be mixing in the hops (and some yeast of course but i don't mind at all as long as you have racked when the yeast has dropped out some from primary) and protein back into solution. After inverting the keg you will notice the beer is hazier and gets a hop boost if you haven't done it for awhile. I really think this is a great way to keep the beer tasting more like a can of IPA that you have mixed up and consumed. That's it, no genius insight, but putting it all together has resulted in great, long-lasting hazy, delicious beer for me. I was always wondering why a perfectly O2-free beer started tasting less hoppy to me. I think you have to rack and invert the keg to keep the hop levels at the absolute maximum.

Just a side note on CO2-purging: I've tried purging the receiving keg with fermentation gas from a keg to keg purge as well as a 6.5G glass carboy to keg purge. Both seem to work great. I'd recommend investing a little time to hook up whatever primary you have to a sanitized keg on brew day and just let it go until you need to disconnect it for dry hopping or whatever. It's awesome to be able to just go down and grab the sanitized, purged keg that is ready to receive the primary wort when it is time to rack. No fussing with filling it with star san or water and pushing it all out, etc. My only concern has been not blowing up my glass carboy (which I use if I need a full 5G to the serving keg or if I am out of clean kegs to use to ferment with) doing this if something gets clogged. So far it has worked well for me when I've tried it with carboys, but I suppose it could go wrong if there is a blowoff clog. I try to not fill my primary too full and I use anti-foam.

Anyway, that was long-winded, but give this a try if you feel like you're still not getting long-lasting hop flavor even though you've implemented one or more of the techniques that we've learned about from everyone on this thread. I am starting to think of my final serving keg as a very large can of IPA that needs to be rolled around before serving! yum!

I also ferment in a keg with the CBDS, I always serve straight from primary now, works great. Maybe I’ll go back to jumping it to a fresh keg to compare. It’s just so convenient serving it from primary!

I recently needed a full 5 gallons for a homebrew festival (anyone in Oklahoma interested let me know) so I had to close transfer the old fashioned way. Made an pineapple ipa, first time using sabro hops and dry hoping after fermentation post soft crash. The sample was good but I kinda expected to be more blown away by the sabro hop, we’ll see after it carbs up a bit.

Pineapple Express
1.065. 5.5 gallon
Hornidal Kveik
75% golden promise
12% white wheat
12% oat malt

WP 200*
2oz Idaho 7
2oz azacca
WP 175*
4oz Sabro

Added pineapple purée end of fermentation

DH after fermentation with soft crash
4oz Sabro
2oz azacca
2oz Idaho 7

 

[BeerFst]

View attachment 623402

I also ferment in a keg with the CBDS, I always serve straight from primary now, works great. Maybe I’ll go back to jumping it to a fresh keg to compare. It’s just so convenient serving it from primary!

I recently needed a full 5 gallons for a homebrew festival (anyone in Oklahoma interested let me know) so I had to close transfer the old fashioned way. Made an pineapple ipa, first time using sabro hops and dry hoping after fermentation post soft crash. The sample was good but I kinda expected to be more blown away by the sabro hop, we’ll see after it carbs up a bit.

Pineapple Express
1.065. 5.5 gallon
Hornidal Kveik
75% golden promise
12% white wheat
12% oat malt

WP 200*
2oz Idaho 7
2oz azacca
WP 175*
4oz Sabro

Added pineapple purée end of fermentation

DH after fermentation with soft crash
4oz Sabro
2oz azacca
2oz Idaho 7

For what its worth, I had a New Image Simcoe and Sabro IPA that was like a pina colada, all pineapple and coconut with no fruit added (at least not stated it was).

how long have you gone without flaked adjuncts? I was just thinking about trying this recently. I have used oat malt before and it came out stellar but also backed it up with flaked oats (no wheat in that batch to see if i could tell the difference) I couldnt in flavor, but i would say i had pretty stellar opacity.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

grams per 100 liters

 

[jakturner]

For what its worth, I had a New Image Simcoe and Sabro IPA that was like a pina colada, all pineapple and coconut with no fruit added (at least not stated it was).

how long have you gone without flaked adjuncts? I was just thinking about trying this recently. I have used oat malt before and it came out stellar but also backed it up with flaked oats (no wheat in that batch to see if i could tell the difference) I couldnt in flavor, but i would say i had pretty stellar opacity.

I’m hoping coconut will come through, lots of pineapple though. I quit using flaked grains probably 10 batches ago probably won’t go back. Flaked oats seemed to leave a coating sticky sweetness on the finish that I was not fond of, kind of reminds me of artificial sweeteners. Oat malt adds that body with a bit of creaminess, I like the finish better if that makes since.

 

[Broothru]

Typically 50% or more (it varies with hop variety) of the aroma compounds in hops are chemically locked up in the form of glycosides and are not available to the wort in that form. So in theory, if you could release them all, then you could get double the hoppiness from a given weight of hops, or the same amount of hoppiness from half the weight (and $$$/£££/€€€) of hops.

Beta-glucosidase is the main enzyme you need to release these bound compounds. There's two main ways to get it into your wort, either as a pure enzyme or by adding microorganisms that release the enzyme into their environment to break down their "food". I suspect that most commercial brewers will end up adding pure enzyme as it's more repeatable and controllable, but I suspect that only the more advanced homebrewers (including many here) will go that route.

My only experience with glucosidase has been with Glucan 1,4-alpha-glucosidase, which I used in a "dry (brut) PA". It was very successful in breaking down both 1,4 and 1,6 branches to increase available fermentables. O.G. of the wort went from 1.055 to a F.G of 0.998, resulting in one of the driest, most crisp and refreshing beers I've ever tasted. But I'm assuming you're referring to a beta glucosidase rather than what I used in my Dry PA. Is this a different enzyme?

Brooo Brother

 

[braindead]

Cant get Sabro here in the UK yet, dying to get my hands on it

 

[isomerization]

My only experience with glucosidase has been with Glucan 1,4-alpha-glucosidase, which I used in a "dry (brut) PA". It was very successful in breaking down both 1,4 and 1,6 branches to increase available fermentables. O.G. of the wort went from 1.055 to a F.G of 0.998, resulting in one of the driest, most crisp and refreshing beers I've ever tasted. But I'm assuming you're referring to a beta glucosidase rather than what I used in my Dry PA. Is this a different enzyme?

Brooo Brother

Yes, they are different enzymes.

You used glucoamylase.
Northern Brewer mentioned glucosidase.

One is helping chop up long sugars chains (glucoamylase), while the other is releasing molecules that contribute aromatics to the beer (glucosidase).

Edit: I see the confusion now, looks like glucoamylase is an alpha-glucosidase, while the glucosidase referred to by Northern Brewer is a beta-glucosidase. Different substrates!

 

[Broothru]

Yes, they are different enzymes.

You used glucoamylase.
Northern Brewer mentioned glucosidase.

One is helping chop up long sugars chains (glucoamylase), while the other is releasing molecules that contribute aromatics to the beer (glucosidase).

Edit: I see the confusion now, looks like glucoamylase is an alpha-glucosidase, while the glucosidase referred to by Northern Brewer is a beta-glucosidase. Different substrates!

That's what I had concluded, but can't find any references for where it can be obtained commercially, as in "available through normal home-brew supply chains." Are there any places where food-grade beta-glucosidase can be found?

Brooo Brother

 

[isomerization]

That's what I had concluded, but can't find any references for where it can be obtained commercially, as in "available through normal home-brew supply chains." Are there any places where food-grade beta-glucosidase can be found?

Brooo Brother

The link above (Rapidase) is $50, not cheap, but also not pro-Brewer level expensive.

You could also try using Lalvin 71B-1122 yeast (see this post from scott Janish), which is known to produce the enzyme as well. Maybe added during tail end of fermentation with the dry hop?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

That's what I had concluded, but can't find any references for where it can be obtained commercially, as in "available through normal home-brew supply chains." Are there any places where food-grade beta-glucosidase can be found?

Well that's kinda where we are at, it's slowly becoming more available to commercial brewers but I don't think there are any "nice" retail packs aimed at homebrewers. There was a nice paper (from the Shellhammer lab maybe?) that compared at least four different commercial enzymes and saw significant differences. The real problem is that the enzyme is inhibited by sugar, in particular glucose, so is not particularly suited to the average brewing scenario! But people are working on that. Maybe the best way is using it on hop teas or infusions, pretreating hops before they go in the wort - or after fermentation is finished, in a brut/diastaticus beer.

 

[ttuato]

Follow up on my Janish BYO experiment - malt edition

I followed the Janish BYO malt bill (chit, malted oats & wheat malt) closely but subbed Rahr 2Row And added honey malt and less hops. It finished 1.018 which is what Janish suggested.

Previously I just did the hop schedule which was too bitter for me - now this version is too sweet. It may be the honey malt addition or fg (I usually shoot for 1.012) or not enough bitterness (55ibu). Either way I am not sure I will attempt again especially since Sapwood does not have a recipe like this.

Also I am disappointed in the foam retention and body. It is worse than my rwgular grist of 2R, flaked wheat, honey malt.

 

[Broothru]

The link above (Rapidase) is $50, not cheap, but also not pro-Brewer level expensive.

You could also try using Lalvin 71B-1122 yeast (see this post from scott Janish), which is known to produce the enzyme as well. Maybe added during tail end of fermentation with the dry hop?

Thanks for the link. I'd found some interesting data about beta-glucosidase, but alas, no source. The price is a bit steep, but considering I paid $30 for a liter of the alpha-glucosidaise it's not out of the realm of possibility. I like drinking beer, but I love brewing and experimenting with different aspects of the process. Still searching for beer nirvana.

Some of the data I saw referenced two different studies that reached differing conclusions about the efficacy of beta-glucosidase present in a few yeast strains having only a slight measurably significant effect on the biotransformative outcome on certain hop varieties (some yeast strains had negligible biotransformative effect on certain hops varieties, while it did have measurable effect on other hops, perhaps due to different concentrations of different hop oil components). Lavlin 71B-1122 was one strain that did show biotransformative properties with some hops, enhancing primarily citrus aromas and flavors. Interestingly, the addition of pure beta-glucosidase to the fermenting wort had a very positive effect on cleaving the glucosides and enhancing the aromas and flavors of the hops (and utilization of the hops by freeing more of the essential oils).

It's a very interesting area of exploration as to what works and what doesn't, as well as the underlying science as to why. The jury is still out, but this area of trial and error has the potential to really change brewing (re: hops utilization) both on the commercial and home brewing scales.

Brooo Brother

 

[SRJHops]

Follow up on my Janish BYO experiment - malt edition

I followed the Janish BYO malt bill (chit, malted oats & wheat malt) closely but subbed Rahr 2Row And added honey malt and less hops. It finished 1.018 which is what Janish suggested.

Previously I just did the hop schedule which was too bitter for me - now this version is too sweet. It may be the honey malt addition or fg (I usually shoot for 1.012) or not enough bitterness (55ibu). Either way I am not sure I will attempt again especially since Sapwood does not have a recipe like this.

Also I am disappointed in the foam retention and body. It is worse than my rwgular grist of 2R, flaked wheat, honey malt.

It's really cool that you did this, and that you shared it with us. Not surprised you had to swap the base malt, but cool you found the chit.

Could you share any other thoughts about the recipe and what you think is going on? I am a Janish fan, but that 60 minute hop addition gave me pause, and especially the two whirlpool additions above 180. I get that hop oils get stripped during fermentation, but that seems all the more reason to try to pack them in during whirlpool (under 175) - so a lot remain.

The 1.018 also seems a bit high... Maybe he just likes sweeter, but more bitter, beers?

 

[ttuato]

It's really cool that you did this, and that you shared it with us. Not surprised you had to swap the base malt, but cool you found the chit.

Could you share any other thoughts about the recipe and what you think is going on? I am a Janish fan, but that 60 minute hop addition gave me pause, and especially the two whirlpool additions above 180. I get that hop oils get stripped during fermentation, but that seems all the more reason to try to pack them in during whirlpool (under 175) - so a lot remain.

The 1.018 also seems a bit high... Maybe he just likes sweeter, but more bitter, beers?

According to his blog / BYO - 1.018 is the target he shoots for. My assumption is by adding the 60min addition plus the two whirlpools above 180 gets the rigght amount of bitterness to balance the recipe in BYO.

At this point I am gonna delay any more experiments based on that article and return to my tried and true recipes. If his book sheds new light I may jump on it. In the end I believe that @Braufessor truly opened the doors on solid NEIPA and everything since is merely an iteration/imitation. I would bet any thing that many commercial breweries have used the recipe in this thread to improve their commercial beers. Cheers to @Braufessor and all that have contribute to the wealth of knowledge here.

 

[ttuato]

Also - all of the talk of about Sabro...

Simcoe, Citra, Sabro at 3:3:2 dryhop is phenomenal
(Simcoe & Citra whirlpool at 3:3)

The Sabro added a subtle woody/vanilla background flavor that balances the Simcoe & Citra very nicely. This is a keeper recipe.

 

[marchuk96]

Also - all of the talk of about Sabro...

Simcoe, Citra, Sabro at 3:3:2 dryhop is phenomenal
(Simcoe & Citra whirlpool at 3:3)

The Sabro added a subtle woody/vanilla background flavor that balances the Simcoe & Citra very nicely. This is a keeper recipe.

On friday (hopefully) im going to be making a west coast style single hop IPA with hbc 692 ,a new exp variety which is the daughter of Sabro...I've read it is intensly fruity citrus with some similar charecterstics to Sabro and with very high oil content...
HBC 692 is an aroma hop for whirlpool and dry hopping additions as well, and it delivers a high intensity of hop aroma well suited for IPAs and hop-forward beers. HBC 692 exhibits grapefruit, floral, stone fruit, potpourri, woody, cream, pine, and resinous notes that are great for lots of beer styles....very excited to try it out...I'm using 8 oz total for a 5.5 gal. batch so we will see what she brings to the table...will report back

 

[SRJHops]

According to his blog / BYO - 1.018 is the target he shoots for. My assumption is by adding the 60min addition plus the two whirlpools above 180 gets the rigght amount of bitterness to balance the recipe in BYO.

At this point I am gonna delay any more experiments based on that article and return to my tried and true recipes. If his book sheds new light I may jump on it. In the end I believe that @Braufessor truly opened the doors on solid NEIPA and everything since is merely an iteration/imitation. I would bet any thing that many commercial breweries have used the recipe in this thread to improve their commercial beers. Cheers to @Braufessor and all that have contribute to the wealth of knowledge here.

I re-read his BYO article (again), and here are some of my thoughts:

1. I'm not 100% sure he's brewed that recipe, or if he has, it was probably at home and not at Sapwood. It was largely a theoretical recipe, based on science/research. Thanks again for doing your own research and sharing the results, which gives us another datapoint.

2. On a related note, each experiment results in one set of data, which needs to be evaluated against others (including successful brews using different techniques). I am especially curious about his 200 degree whirlpool, where he cites that temp as the best for getting citrus/fruit flavor, versus woody flavors at lower temps (according to the experiment he cited). That really does challenge a lot of people's experience (who are whirlpooling at lower temps). There are actual scientists (not me) on this thread, and I'm sure they would say that an experiment needs to be replicated to increase its validity. I wonder how many experiments have found that a 200 degree whirlpool is best for getting those flavors?

3. And related to that... As you suggest, while it's good/fun to experiment, what works for you is what works. Going back to tried and true recipes and tweaking those seems like the best way to keep improving, at least to me.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

One of my NEIPAs a few batches ago finished at 1.020 and didn't taste overly sweet at all, although I wasn't trying to finish quite that high. I think it's all about balancing the recipe(IBUs, hoppiness, FG, etc). My favorite somewhat local brewery that makes phenomenal hazys stated in a podcast they shoot for around 1.020 for their DIPAs and 1.014-1.016 for their regular IPAs.

 

[stickyfinger]

One of my NEIPAs a few batches ago finished at 1.020 and didn't taste overly sweet at all, although I wasn't trying to finish quite that high. I think it's all about balancing the recipe(IBUs, hoppiness, FG, etc). My favorite somewhat local brewery that makes phenomenal hazys stated in a podcast they shoot for around 1.020 for their DIPAs and 1.014-1.016 for their regular IPAs.

i dont think FG means much at all in a certain range at least as long as most of the simpler, sweeter sugars have been consumed. I’ve had beers in tje 1.020s that tasted fine when using very high mash temps

 

[SRJHops]

i dont think FG means much at all in a certain range at least as long as most of the simpler, sweeter sugars have been consumed. I’ve had beers in the 1.020s that tasted fine when using very high mash temps

Good to know. Makes me want to try to hit 1.020 and see if I can tell the difference. I can taste that Brut IPA's are drier at 1.000 or less, but I'm not sure at what threshold I would think a NEIPA is too sweet. My current version has been hitting 1.012, but I'd like to be at 1.014 or 1.016 and see if I can tell the difference.

If the upper range for a regular DIPA is generally 1.018, it makes sense to me that maybe the NEIPA range is similar -- or maybe even a bit higher. On the other hand, the style generally has lower bitterness, so it seems like it would be harder to balance that against the sweetness. But maybe the difference between, say, a 1.014 and 1.020 isn't that perceptible...

 

[BeerFst]

Good to know. Makes me want to try to hit 1.020 and see if I can tell the difference. I can taste that Brut IPA's are drier at 1.000 or less, but I'm not sure at what threshold I would think a NEIPA is too sweet. My current version has been hitting 1.012, but I'd like to be at 1.014 or 1.016 and see if I can tell the difference.

If the upper range for a regular DIPA is generally 1.018, it makes sense to me that maybe the NEIPA range is similar -- or maybe even a bit higher. On the other hand, the style generally has lower bitterness, so it seems like it would be harder to balance that against the sweetness. But maybe the difference between, say, a 1.014 and 1.020 isn't that perceptible...

My most recent NEIPA (mashed too hot) finished at 1.024, same as the imperial stout i currently have on at the moment. It wasn't obviously too sweet at first but after a few of them it starts to get noticeable. I'd definitely shoot for lower, but by no means would I dump another that finished at 1.024

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I recently saw a chart comparing beta-glucosidase activity among the Lallemand dry yeasts, BRY-97, Belle and their New England had 50% more activity than the others.

I see it's now on their website, linked from the NE page : https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp...bestpractices-Biotransformation-digital-1.pdf

 

[SRJHops]

I see it's now on their website, linked from the NE page : https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp...bestpractices-Biotransformation-digital-1.pdf

Dig this! Thanks! Here is my favorite part:

"...if we dry hop our beers under active fermentation (e.g. first
fermentation) will lead to the reduction of hop oils by:
- CO2 stripping (hop oils are very volatile)
- Masking (fermentation compounds may mask
the hop oil aroma)
- Adsorption (hop oils adsorbed by yeast membrane, which is removed later on)

However, if dry hopping is performed at the very end of the fermentation, where there is lower CO2
production (which kept within the tank) but yeast is still very active, the following benefits occur:
- Less CO2 stripping (more hop oils kept in the beer matrix)
- Reduction of dissolved oxygen (DO) by active yeast during dry hopping
- Ethanol presence (more hop oil solubility)
- Higher temperature (more solubility)
- Some fermentation left (mixing effect due to beer turbulence)
- Biotransformation"


Soooo, this clearly suggests I have been doing the biotrans addition too early. I usually do it at the end of Day 2 under high krausen.

I don't want to keep opening the fermenter to check the gravity...because I am too worried about oxygen. Does anyone have a good rule of thumb for guessing when fermentation is about to end? Right now I am using Juice, and it's still quite active at Day 4. So maybe just watch it and that will help me for next time? At the very least, I will move my biotrans addition to Day 4 or later for this yeast.

 

[Andre3000]

I’ve never enjoyed bry-97. Any beer I’ve ever made with it showed a harsher bitterness. I’ve done a comparison brew with a Mosiac/Simcoe combo and the one with bry-97 did present more bitterness.

Which is your preferred yeast? I've used 1272/BRY-97 and it's not bad. I like it for other beers.

I got tired of 1318 and just tried 1098. It's not cold or carbed yet but it shows a lot of promise. It ferments out VERY fast.

Also going to give WLP644 a shot which could be interesting.

 

[Dgallo]

Which is your preferred yeast? I've used 1272/BRY-97 and it's not bad. I like it for other beers.

I got tired of 1318 and just tried 1098. It's not cold or carbed yet but it shows a lot of promise. It ferments out VERY fast.

Also going to give WLP644 a shot which could be interesting.

Hands down, my favorite yeast for this style is Imperial Dryhop a/24