New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[tld6008]

Oh, I cold crashed. That didn't help.

Then you didn't get it cold enough or you did something else to disturb the sediment or maybe your poppits wern't clean to start with. Many things could have caused your problem.

 

[plazola86]

None taken. Yes, good stuff in the OP's post, which I did review. Don't want to beat a dead horse, but I'm curious what others think. The OP provided a bunch of different iterations, from high sulfate/low chloride, to the reverse, to balanced, etc.

There are also a lot of different ppm levels I've seen (such as 250 ppm Chloride), so it seems like an area where people might have some opinions to share, which is always interesting...

Don't forget grains add a LOT of chloride and minerals to the finished beer. I've gone up to 250 chloride to 100 sulfate and get a chalky taste from them sometimes. Not sure if its yeast interaction (yeast dependent) or get a lot of mineral additions from the grain. On the Treehouse yeast thread people are paying attention to calcium and how to limit it. Calcium is a mineral people don't think about, its all about chloride and sulfate but when you add CALCIUM chloride to add chloride and gypsum for sulfate your also adding a lot CALCIUM.

 

[SRJHops]

Don't forget grains add a LOT of chloride and minerals to the finished beer. I've gone up to 250 chloride to 100 sulfate and get a chalky taste from them sometimes. Not sure if its yeast interaction (yeast dependent) or get a lot of mineral additions from the grain. On the Treehouse yeast thread people are paying attention to calcium and how to limit it. Calcium is a mineral people don't think about, its all about chloride and sulfate but when you add CALCIUM chloride to add chloride and gypsum for sulfate your also adding a lot CALCIUM.

Do you have a Ca goal for your NEIPA's?

Here is what I have so far from the water calculator, which does include the grains in the calculation. I'm adding 2.5 tsp Lactic acid, .25 tsp gypsum, 1 tsp Epsom Salt, and 1.75 tsp Calcium Chloride to get:

Ca: 106.3
Mg: 17.2
Na: 14.7
Cl: 143.7
So4: 97.6
HCO: .121

I'm realizing that it might be easier to just add the .25 gypsum to the mash water, but I've split the other additions in half between the mash and sparge water. Thoughts?

 

[plazola86]

There is no calculator that can calculate the minerals added from the grains in the final beer. Those numbers look good though. Try it, take notes, learn from it. You could always add minerals to the finished beer to see what does what.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Don't forget grains add a LOT of chloride and minerals to the finished beer...Calcium is a mineral people don't think about, its all about chloride and sulfate but when you add CALCIUM chloride to add chloride and gypsum for sulfate your also adding a lot CALCIUM.

You do want calcium though, it plays lots of useful roles in wort from thermostabilising mash enzymes to helping yeast to flocculate. This article from one of the main suppliers near Burton is a good introduction to what the different minerals do : https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/resources/technical-articles/water-water-everywhere/

But bear in mind that since British beers tend to have less grain in them, we tend to end up putting more minerals in the water - and British styles generally suit higher mineral levels. But most British brewers wouldn't dream of putting less than 100ppm calcium in their beers (except for lagers etc) and as Murphys say, more like 170ppm calcium is typical of bitter.

 

[anteater8]

I use a plastic bag that Walmart has in the produce section they are very light weight and work great plus they are free. This works very well for me, the bag is nearly deflated when I get down to 45 degrees. I have never had a plugged keg valve since I started cold crashing and I have not had an oxidation issue since using the CO2 bag during chill down. Actually the only oxidation issue I have had brewing NEIPAs was when I bottled them.

Sounds great. I recently had another thought, that I can have a T connector coming out the carboy. One end will be attached to the co2 capturing bag/balloon, the other end will have a tube going into my water jug. That way once the balloon is full, the rest of the co2 will bubble out. And then when I'm cold crashing, it will suck back all the co2 from the bag and nothing else. That way there is no monitoring involved.

 

[Sbe2]

Sounds great. I recently had another thought, that I can have a T connector coming out the carboy. One end will be attached to the co2 capturing bag/balloon, the other end will have a tube going into my water jug. That way once the balloon is full, the rest of the co2 will bubble out. And then when I'm cold crashing, it will suck back all the co2 from the bag and nothing else. That way there is no monitoring involved.

U may want a valve on your water jug side. I am no physicist, but you may get suck back from the water as well as the gas. I probably zoned out at class when the professor taught how different mediums act under a vacuum.

 

[Homergah]

U may want a valve on your water jug side. I am no physicist, but you may get suck back from the water as well as the gas. I probably zoned out at class when the professor taught how different mediums act under a vacuum.

No suck back on the liquid side without first pulling a decent vacuum on the bag. Probably not going to happen.

 

[tld6008]

Do you have a Ca goal for your NEIPA's?

Here is what I have so far from the water calculator, which does include the grains in the calculation. I'm adding 2.5 tsp Lactic acid, .25 tsp gypsum, 1 tsp Epsom Salt, and 1.75 tsp Calcium Chloride to get:

Ca: 106.3
Mg: 17.2
Na: 14.7
Cl: 143.7
So4: 97.6
HCO: .121

I'm realizing that it might be easier to just add the .25 gypsum to the mash water, but I've split the other additions in half between the mash and sparge water. Thoughts?

I just checked my syringe and 1 tsp was 5ml so you are adding 12.5ml of lactic (I'm assuming its 88%) I have never added more than 6 ml. I do know the various water calculators will give widely different acid recommendations.
FWIW I have found that Brunwater give (by far) the highest levels and MME and EZ water give amounts that result in close to expected PH readings.

 

[tld6008]

Sounds great. I recently had another thought, that I can have a T connector coming out the carboy. One end will be attached to the co2 capturing bag/balloon, the other end will have a tube going into my water jug. That way once the balloon is full, the rest of the co2 will bubble out. And then when I'm cold crashing, it will suck back all the co2 from the bag and nothing else. That way there is no monitoring involved.

I also want to rig up the T connection but want to keep the blowoff junk out of the bag so may cap it off and connect the bag after it subsides

 

[plazola86]

You do want calcium though, it plays lots of useful roles in wort from thermostabilising mash enzymes to helping yeast to flocculate. This article from one of the main suppliers near Burton is a good introduction to what the different minerals do : https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/resources/technical-articles/water-water-everywhere/

But bear in mind that since British beers tend to have less grain in them, we tend to end up putting more minerals in the water - and British styles generally suit higher mineral levels. But most British brewers wouldn't dream of putting less than 100ppm calcium in their beers (except for lagers etc) and as Murphys say, more like 170ppm calcium is typical of bitter.

Yup I agree. Never said not to add Calcium but to actually start thinking about it.

 

[SRJHops]

I just checked my syringe and 1 tsp was 5ml so you are adding 12.5ml of lactic (I'm assuming its 88%) I have never added more than 6 ml. I do know the various water calculators will give widely different acid recommendations.
FWIW I have found that Brunwater give (by far) the highest levels and MME and EZ water give amounts that result in close to expected PH readings.

That's how much the calculator on Brewers Friend said to add to get the HCO to 0, but I will compare to some other calculators. Thanks for the tip.

 

[SRJHops]

There is no calculator that can calculate the minerals added from the grains in the final beer. Those numbers look good though. Try it, take notes, learn from it. You could always add minerals to the finished beer to see what does what.

Oh. Well something changed on the Brewers Friend calculator - maybe the ph? - when I added the amounts and Lovibond for each grain.

I'll give it a go and see what happens... Thanks for the tips/comments - much appreciated!

 

[leesmith]

Oh. Well something changed on the Brewers Friend calculator - maybe the ph? - when I added the amounts and Lovibond for each grain.

I'll give it a go and see what happens... Thanks for the tips/comments - much appreciated!

Please post your complete recipe....that is way too much acid. I'll run it though Brewer'sFriend to see what I get. No offense....just trying to help.

 

[SRJHops]

Please post your complete recipe....that is way too much acid. I'll run it though Brewer'sFriend to see what I get. No offense....just trying to help.

Appreciate the help -- this is my first time using the calculator

Here is the untreated water report from the City:
Ca: 33.8
Cl: 28.3
Mg: 3.09
Alkalinity: 58
na: 14.7
Sulfate: 24.5
ph: 8.91

8.5 gallons water

8 lbs 2-row
3 lbs white wheat
.5 lb carapils
1 lb flaked barley
1 lb flaked oats

.25 tsp gypsum
1 tsp Epsom salt
1.75 tsp calcium chloride
2.5 tsp lactic acid 88%

When I do it, it shows a mash ph of 5.38 and these results:

ca: 106.3
Mg: 17.2
NA: 14.7
Cl: 143.7
So4: 97.6
HCO: .121

 

[leesmith]

Appreciate the help -- this is my first time using the calculator

Here is the untreated water report from the City:
Ca: 33.8
Cl: 28.3
Mg: 3.09
Alkalinity: 58
na: 14.7
Sulfate: 24.5
ph: 8.91

8.5 gallons water

8 lbs 2-row
3 lbs white wheat
.5 lb carapils
1 lb flaked barley
1 lb flaked oats

.25 tsp gypsum
1 tsp Epsom salt
1.75 tsp calcium chloride
2.5 tsp lactic acid 88%

When I do it, it shows a mash ph of 5.38 and these results:

ca: 106.3
Mg: 17.2
NA: 14.7
Cl: 143.7
So4: 97.6
HCO: .121

I’m at work so I’ll check later when i get home.
But are you sure the acid amount is displayed in tsp and not ml?

If you click the check box to specify acid amount by target it automatically calculates it in ml....not tsp.

And I think even if you change the drop down to tsp while this box is checked it will still display the ml amounts and not tsp....

 

[tld6008]

That's how much the calculator on Brewers Friend said to add to get the HCO to 0, but I will compare to some other calculators. Thanks for the tip.

Don't know about others but I have never adjusted my water to alter HCO. In fact I have never paid attention to it.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Don't know about others but I have never adjusted my water to alter HCO. In fact I have never paid attention to it.

HCO3 is alkalinity, right? If so everyone who adds acids adjusts it. I've never actually paid attention to the HCO3 number though, just what the estimated(and actual) mash ph is.

 

[SRJHops]

I’m at work so I’ll check later when i get home.
But are you sure the acid amount is displayed in tsp and not ml?

If you click the check box to specify acid amount by target it automatically calculates it in ml....not tsp.

And I think even if you change the drop down to tsp while this box is checked it will still display the ml amounts and not tsp....

Yes, I picked tsp bc that seemed easier to use... If I use 2.5 ml the predicted ph is 5.6, and I'm shooting for 5.4. It's 5.38 when I do the salt and acid additions, unless I am doing something wrong...

 

[SRJHops]

HCO3 is alkalinity, right? If so everyone who adds acids adjusts it. I've never actually paid attention to the HCO3 number though, just what the estimated(and actual) mash ph is.

Yes, I believe the HCO number comes from the akalinity. It appears that the only way I can lower the ph enough -- and hit my Cl and So4 targets -- is to add some Lactic Acid 88%. The ph is 5.67 without the lactic acid, and 5.38 with it.

I can see how depending on the water you start with, you may not need to add any acid. I am using tap water, not RO or distilled.

 

[marchuk96]

Yes, I believe the HCO number comes from the akalinity. It appears that the only way I can lower the ph enough -- and hit my Cl and So4 targets -- is to add some Lactic Acid 88%. The ph is 5.67 without the lactic acid, and 5.38 with it.

I can see how depending on the water you start with, you may not need to add any acid. I am using tap water, not RO or distilled.

You could always blend your tap water with distilled water...or just go all distilled...its an added cost($9)but it will solve your problem.. idk if brewers friend calculator will adjust your starting water for you if you did blend...I believe brunwater does which is what I use...you could also buy some accidulated malt as well instead of the lactic acid to help lower ph

 

[ba-brewer]

Yes, I picked tsp bc that seemed easier to use... If I use 2.5 ml the predicted ph is 5.6, and I'm shooting for 5.4. It's 5.38 when I do the salt and acid additions, unless I am doing something wrong...

If you plan to continue building water you might want to get a small scale to measure salts in grams and get a small syringe for measuring acid. It will give you better control and repeatability. My LHBS has small syringes and the small scales are pretty reasonable on amazon.

 

[SRJHops]

I’m at work so I’ll check later when i get home.
But are you sure the acid amount is displayed in tsp and not ml?

If you click the check box to specify acid amount by target it automatically calculates it in ml....not tsp.

And I think even if you change the drop down to tsp while this box is checked it will still display the ml amounts and not tsp....

Here's the url to my water calculation so far: https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=KKXX3PW

Thanks again for your help!

 

[SRJHops]

You could always blend your tap water with distilled water...or just go all distilled...its an added cost($9)but it will solve your problem.. idk if brewers friend calculator will adjust your starting water for you if you did blend...I believe brunwater does which is what I use...you could also buy some accidulated malt as well instead of the lactic acid to help lower ph

I like the idea of accidulated malt. Not sure it can be loaded into this calculator, though? Maybe a different one?

As for the blend... I suppose it depends on how close I need to hit the targets? The Deltas on the calculator are green, which I assume means I am close enough? For example, I wanted to hit 100 ppm for sulfate, but so far I'm at 97.6. Prob close enough?

 

[leesmith]

Here's the url to my water calculation so far: https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=KKXX3PW

Thanks again for your help!

You need to click the salts added to mash only button.

Unless you are treating your sparge water.

By clicking this...it will get your needed acid down to about .75 tsp to hit desired mash ph of 5.4.

I like the ability to share the water profile.

*Edit...also I think Carapils should be used as a caramel malt.

 

[SRJHops]

You need to click the salts added to mash only button.

Unless you are treating your sparge water.

By clicking this...it will get your needed acid down to about .75 tsp to hit desired mash ph of 5.4.

I like the ability to share the water profile.

*Edit...also I think Carapils should be used as a caramel malt.

I was going to treat both the mash and the sparge water. Should I just treat the mash water? That would mean less acid it appears, which seems like a good thing. (Odd that so much more lactic acid would be needed if also treating sparge?)

What do you mean use carapils as a carmel malt? I thought it didn't add color or flavor? I have been using it to add body and increase head retention. I dialed it down to .25 lb for my latest brew, but I need to dial it back up for the next one.

Thanks again!

 

[nick sekerak]

Are you using the recipe listed in this thread? I have not been able to get mine that cloudy and am curious of your recipe. Thanks!

I am using something similar to it, my base malts are GP and 2 row, adjuncts were flaked oats, flaked wheat and flaked rice.

 

[leesmith]

I was going to treat both the mash and the sparge water. Should I just treat the mash water? That would mean less acid it appears, which seems like a good thing. (Odd that so much more lactic acid would be needed if also treating sparge?)

What do you mean use carapils as a carmel malt? I thought it didn't add color or flavor? I have been using it to add body and increase head retention. I dialed it down to .25 lb for my latest brew, but I need to dial it back up for the next one.

Thanks again!

You didn’t fill in the treatment for the sparge water.

Carapils doesn’t need to be mashed. It’s not a base malt.

I’ll take a more in depth look later.

 

[SRJHops]

You didn’t fill in the treatment for the sparge water.

Carapils doesn’t need to be mashed. It’s not a base malt.

I’ll take a more in depth look later.

Yeah, I figured the calculator was giving me the numbers for all 8.5 gallons, so I was just going to split the additions in half between mash and sparge water. But now that I think about it, it makes a heckuva lot more sense to put everything in the mash water. After all, it's mash ph we are looking for, not sparge (though I know the ph of the sparge can affect tannins).

So, I think I will plan to add everything to the mash water. At least until I learn more about why I might want to add some salt or acid to the sparge water too...

Sorry, I'm not following you on the carapils... If I don't mash it, what the heck would I do with it?

I do now see on the calculator that I could list carapils as crystal/caramel. That did change the ph by .01

 

[schematix]

Sorry, I'm not following you on the carapils... If I don't mash it, what the heck would I do with it?

Throw it in the trash.

 

[leesmith]

So, I think I will plan to add everything to the mash water. At least until I learn more about why I might want to add some salt or acid to the sparge water too...

I think this is a good plan.

Sorry, I'm not following you on the carapils... If I don't mash it, what the heck would I do with it?

I do now see on the calculator that I could list carapils as crystal/caramel. That did change the ph by .01

I agree with schematix (that gave me a laugh...sorry) but if you want to use it...enter it as a crystal malt into the calculator. And you would put it in the mash just like you do crystal malt....they just do not NEED to be mashed because they have no enzymes to convert. I wasn't clear on my explanation.

 

[SRJHops]

I think this is a good plan.
I agree with schematix (that gave me a laugh...sorry) but if you want to use it...enter it as a crystal malt into the calculator. And you would put it in the mash just like you do crystal malt....they just do not NEED to be mashed because they have no enzymes to convert. I wasn't clear on my explanation.

Cool. Thanks again for your help!

And no worries about the carapils... I don't know enough (yet) to know other/better ways to increase mouthfeel and head retention. I do know that a lot of commercial beers have neither...

 

[plazola86]

I don't know enough (yet) to know other/better ways to increase mouthfeel and head retention = Viagra

 

[schematix]

Cool. Thanks again for your help!

And no worries about the carapils... I don't know enough (yet) to know other/better ways to increase mouthfeel and head retention. I do know that a lot of commercial beers have neither...

When you’re ready to take the leap, the trick is step mashing. Carapils will increase the FG a little but it’s not really ‘good’ body, and head retention has many factors that carapils alone doesn’t do.

 

[Loud Brewing]

I've never had an issue with neipas and head retention. All the flaked oat, wheat and barley etc help make it thick and creamy.

 

[WBCo]

...the trick is step mashing...

Do you have a preferred mashing profile? I did my first stepped mash on my new recirculating eBIAB two weeks ago, so I can't vouch for any changes just yet. I dryhopped yesterday and will be kegging this wknd. I went 145*F/152*F/162*F. Grist was mostly Golden Promise with some malted wheat and flaked barley.

 

[schematix]

Do you have a preferred mashing profile? I did my first stepped mash on my new recirculating eBIAB two weeks ago, so I can't vouch for any changes just yet. I dryhopped yesterday and will be kegging this wknd. I went 145*F/152*F/162*F. Grist was mostly Golden Promise with some malted wheat and flaked barley.

144 for 20 min
148 for 20 min
152 for 5 mins (*if pilsner or desire extra dryness)
162 for 30 min
171 for 10 min

Takes about 2 hours including all the steps.

Sometimes the grains dictate some slight changes to times and temps, but this is nearly fool proof to getting 100% conversion, great head, body, and attenuation. Other parts of your process have to be solid too but this will go a long way.

 

[WBCo]

144 for 20 min
148 for 20 min
152 for 5 mins (*if pilsner or desire extra dryness)
162 for 30 min
171 for 10 min

Takes about 2 hours including all the steps.

Sometimes the grains dictate some slight changes to times and temps, but this is nearly fool proof to getting 100% conversion, great head, body, and attenuation. Other parts of your process have to be solid too but this will go a long way.

Great, thanks! Does the 171*F make a huge difference, or is that your mash out?

Is your 152 step only 5 min or is that a mistype? Just curious since that seems like a short amount of time.

The rest of my process is pretty dialed in at this point, although I'm constantly tinkering and trying to improve. After boil I pump into my Spike conical where I use the active fermentation to purge a sanitized keg. The conical is temp controlled using a TC thermoprobe from Auber attached to a heater. I need a glycol chiller, but the ambient in my basement this time of year means I have a couple months to squeak by without it. I then do a completely closed transfer into the keg(s) and put them into the kegerator on gas. I'd like to experiment with krausening, but I'll probably start playing with that once I pick up another conical and can brew more often.

 

[couchsending]

Do you have a preferred mashing profile? I did my first stepped mash on my new recirculating eBIAB two weeks ago, so I can't vouch for any changes just yet. I dryhopped yesterday and will be kegging this wknd. I went 145*F/152*F/162*F. Grist was mostly Golden Promise with some malted wheat and flaked barley.

It all depends on what you’re trying to achieve.

For hoppy beers I’d only do a step at 145 if it’s a big beer with lower attenuating yeast.

You can mess with the length of the 145 rest to screw with fetmrntability but I don’t have enough data on that to recommend certain times.

I don’t think you need to combine a 145 step with a step in the 150s unless you’re really trying to dry things out or using a low attenuating yeast.

I also don’t think the mash out step is overly important on the home brew scale unless you struggle with stuck mashes. It’s important on a pro scale more than on our little scale. It helps to lock in a profile but if you’re doing the long 162 step it’s not going to get you much more. If you’re trying to get a high FG it can help but with hops you don’t really want that.

 

[WBCo]

It all depends on what you’re trying to achieve.

For hoppy beers I’d only do a step at 145 if it’s a big beer with lower attenuating yeast.

You can mess with the length of the 145 rest to screw with fermentability but I don’t have enough data on that to recommend certain times.

I don’t think you need to combine a 145 step with a step in the 150s unless you’re really trying to dry things out or using a low attenuating yeast.

I also don’t think the mash out step is overly important on the home brew scale unless you struggle with stuck mashes. It’s important on a pro scale more than on our little scale. It helps to lock in a profile but if you’re doing the long 162 step it’s not going to get you much more. If you’re trying to get a high FG it can help but with hops you don’t really want that.

Thanks for the input. I tend to use lower attenuating English yeasts, as most do, so I don't mind a drier beer than what I'd get from mashing for something like 154 for 60 minutes or so. I know a lot of people chase a higher final gravity with this style, but I tend to prefer getting some malt flavor from the base malt and letting the beer dry out a little more. I like the drinkability of a crisper beer and I feel like a lower FG lends to creating a beer that is more sessionable.

I agree with you on the mash out, I BIAB so I definitely don't have a use for one. As soon as my timer goes off I crank up the element and get the grains out of there.