New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Dgallo]

I can see that being a thing, but the system I have wouldn't allow that.. I start with 3 dirty kegs, spray them out, fill with pbw and soak overnight, so 3 kegs in my brewery sink filled with pbw before I start my kegging process. Empty the pbw from each keg, rinse all of them thoroughly, fill 1 with starsan and co2 purge into next one, then into the third, then lastly into a bucket that is used for the closed transfer.. all kegs filled and purged with starsan as a last step, if there was anything left behind it would show up in the bucket that is the final vessel of the co2 purging. If, if, by some chance something got left behind it would be minimal, something stuck in a diptube maybe.. but hey, I suppose anything is possible. I'm still convinced it's oxidation and likely the next week of polishing off this keg will indicate that. Hence why I tip my hat to the flawless brewers out there, it's not easy.

Happens to all of us. I’m about to dump a full 5.25 gallons of a 12 month barrel aged dark wheat wine due to acetaldehyde from oxidation (or potential bacterial infection). It’s either that or I adjunct the sh!t out of it lol

 

[Northern_Brewer]

View attachment 866276

Never mind the beer, where did you get the hop chemistry glass from?

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Never mind the beer, where did you get the hop chemistry glass from?

Haha, my wife got them for me, but I believe they can be found on Amazon... I know, big surprise.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Haha, my wife got them for me, but I believe they can be found on Amazon... I know, big surprise.

Looks like they originate here but can be found at Etsy and Amazon, only have 12oz glasses here but 16oz are o/s. Not cheap though...
https://cognitive-surplus.com/products/beer-chemistry-pint-set

 

[aaronm13]

I use Coastal Haze on 100% of my neipas. I absolutely love what it produces. My only complaint is it does over attenuate if you mash too low. I find anything under 152, and you'll finish around 1.015. I mix up my mash schedule between a single 154 or a step 146/158. I think I prefer the 146/158. Usually finishing around 1.018 like @bailey mountain brewer says. I think it lets the hops shine, especially after a large DH. I do soft crash the yeast before DH and only DH for a max of 48hrs, for reference.

Thanks for the tips. I'll be putting in an order this week for the yeast. Do you harvest or over build your starters on this strain? Wondering is this stain suited for overbuilding considering its a blend.

 

[wepeeler]

Thanks for the tips. I'll be putting in an order this week for the yeast. Do you harvest or over build your starters on this strain? Wondering is this stain suited for overbuilding considering its a blend.

I overbuild every starter and harvest off 300-500ml for future starters. I was told by Omega that you can use as little as 100ml of harvest for future starters, but I'd rather make more than less. I've gone out to 7 or so generations before getting a new pack. Can't say I see much difference with newer gens, but I like to get a fresh pack at least yearly.

 

[aaronm13]

I overbuild every starter and harvest off 300-500ml for future starters. I was told by Omega that you can use as little as 100ml of harvest for future starters, but I'd rather make more than less. I've gone out to 7 or so generations before getting a new pack. Can't say I see much difference with newer gens, but I like to get a fresh pack at least yearly.

Good to know it's possible to overbuild with this strain.

 

[t^3]

I've been searching for threads about White Labs Tropicale yeast WLP-077. There are threads from when it was announced but none really have good details. It is a non-GMO Thiolized yeast. Apparently I grabbed the wrong yeast, meant to get WLP-067 Costal Haze. I am trying to figure out what to brew with it. On White Labs site they have a 10th Anniversary Hazy IPA with the yeast. Now I have played with Thiolized yeast before and don't really care for high amount of Thiols. Their recipe uses a lot of wheat and no mash hops so that should tone it down but the DH rate seems very low. Does anyone have feedback on that recipe or one they think would be good with this yeast?

 

[t^3]

White Labs site is having issues, here is the recipe:

Brew our 10th Anniversary Hazy IPA fermented with
Est. ABV: 7.7%
OG: 1.070 FG: 1.010 IBUs: 45
Pale Malt - 2 Row 7 lb 11 oz (3.5 kg)
Wheat - White Malt 3 lb (1.4 kg)
Oats - Flaked Mash 1 lb 12 oz (0.8 kg)
Carapils Malt 11 oz (0.3 kg)

Mash In - 154°F (68°C) for 75 mins
Add 15.10 liters of water at 165°F (74°C)
Mash Out - 168°F (76°C) for 10 mins
Add 9.66 liters of water at 194°F (90°C)

Warrior® 0.25 oz (7.0 g) Boil - 60 min
Cascade 0.75 oz (21.3 g) Whirlpool - 60 min
Mosaic® 0.75 oz (21.3 g) Whirlpool - 60 min
Simcoe® 0.75 oz (21.3 g) Whirlpool - 60 min
Mosaic® 1.25 oz (35.4 g) Dry Hop - 3 Days After Reaching FG
Cascade 1.25 oz (35.4 g) Dry Hop - 3 Days After Reaching FG
Simcoe® 1.25 oz (35.4 g) Dry Hop - 3 Days After Reaching FG

YEAST WLP077 Tropicale Yeast Blend
Fermentation: ~7-10 days 64°F (18°C) for three days, then raise to 70°F (21°C) until reaching final gravity

---I will be doing a full volume BIAB

 

[Northern_Brewer]

but the DH rate seems very low.

Well a big part of the pitch for thiolising yeast is that they allow commercial brewers to spend less $$$ on hops...

Now I have played with Thiolized yeast before and don't really care for high amount of Thiols.

There are thiolising yeast and there's thiolising yeast.... The original Omega ones used the "natural" yeast IRC7 gene from their Chico strain, which was functional but not switched on in wort. Combining it with a better "switch" and putting the combined structure into British V led to Cosmic Punch.

But they wanted mooore thiols, so they started playing with a bacterial gene, patB, which led to Star Party, Lunar Crush and Helio Gazer. The general consensus seems to be that patB is "too much", and ends up being just one-dimensional thiols. So if you've only had thiolised beers made with Star Party/Lunar Crush/Helio Gazer then you're probably right to think you don't like "thiolised" beers, when in fact it's more likely that you just don't like beers thiolised with patB.

WLP077 Tropicale doesn't use patB, it combines yeast strains from the White Lab collection that naturally have high IRC7 activity. So their thiolising activity will be a lot less than patB strains like Star Party/Lunar Crush/Helio Gazer.

As an aside, this is a good piece from White Labs on thiolising that I'd not seen before :
https://www.whitelabs.com/news-update-detail?id=113&type=NEWS

So I wouldn't sweat it, I would just use either the recipe they suggest or one that you know well, and ferment WLP077 side by side with eg a London Ale III type, to see what the difference is.

 

[Dgallo]

Well a big part of the pitch for thiolising yeast is that they allow commercial brewers to spend less $$$ on hops...


There are thiolising yeast and there's thiolising yeast.... The original Omega ones used the "natural" yeast IRC7 gene from their Chico strain, which was functional but not switched on in wort. Combining it with a better "switch" and putting the combined structure into British V led to Cosmic Punch.

But they wanted mooore thiols, so they started playing with a bacterial gene, patB, which led to Star Party, Lunar Crush and Helio Gazer. The general consensus seems to be that patB is "too much", and ends up being just one-dimensional thiols. So if you've only had thiolised beers made with Star Party/Lunar Crush/Helio Gazer then you're probably right to think you don't like "thiolised" beers, when in fact it's more likely that you just don't like beers thiolised with patB.

WLP077 Tropicale doesn't use patB, it combines yeast strains from the White Lab collection that naturally have high IRC7 activity. So their thiolising activity will be a lot less than patB strains like Star Party/Lunar Crush/Helio Gazer.

As an aside, this is a good piece from White Labs on thiolising that I'd not seen before :
https://www.whitelabs.com/news-update-detail?id=113&type=NEWS

So I wouldn't sweat it, I would just use either the recipe they suggest or one that you know well, and ferment WLP077 side by side with eg a London Ale III type, to see what the difference is.

IIRC, for the typical taster IRC7 Elevated thiols 5x the tasting threshold, where as parB is 100-120x the tasting threshold

 

[t^3]

The general consensus seems to be that patB is "too much",

Yes, I agree! It's been several years since I used Cosmic Punch but recall it wasn't a thiol bomb.

IRC7 Elevated thiols 5x the tasting threshold, where as parB is 100-120x

I have searched to see if WLP-077 is more comparable to Cosmic Punch or the patB strains, no info. Being naturally selected strains hopefully it is not to good at converting thiols, lol. Still on the fence about the recipe. I have the ingredients for it so probably just go with that.

 

[t^3]

As an aside, this is a good piece from White Labs on thiolising that I'd not seen before :
https://www.whitelabs.com/news-update-detail?id=113&type=NEWS

Thanks for the link, I missed that one. They say that "recent research indicates that whirlpool additions significantly contribute to increased precursors concentration in the wort." The recipe they give uses a 60 min whirlpool but pretty low dosage of hops. Maybe it is more time related?

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks for the link, I missed that one. They say that "recent research indicates that whirlpool additions significantly contribute to increased precursors concentration in the wort." The recipe they give uses a 60 min whirlpool but pretty low dosage of hops. Maybe it is more time related?

My homebrew club was fortunate to Lance Shaner (co-founder of Omega) do a google meet with us on thiolized yeast and he said thiols are attracted to the hop material and will drop out with the hops during the whirlpool. So the more hops you use in whirlpool, the more thiols drop out, so it become a deminished return. He also mentioned that it’s better to use t45 pellets (cryo, lupomax, cgx) in the whirlpool and dryhop and it will increase the thiols in the final beer.

This was about 2 years ago now, so things might have changed. I don’t keep up with thiolozed yeast as I am not a fan at all. I’m sensitive to them and feel it makes the beer smell and taste slightly light BO, which makes sense since thiols are sulfur compounds

 

[t^3]

Thanks @Dgallo I really didn’t intend to get back in this thiol game again but I grabbed the wrong yeast. Guess I am too cheap to cut my losses! I will brew this one and see what happens. If it is a thiol bomb it will get dumped.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I have searched to see if WLP-077 is more comparable to Cosmic Punch or the patB strains, no info.

My assumption would be that at best it's the same "strength" as Cosmic Punch but may well be weaker still, so I wouldn't worry about it being overpowering like patB strains.

 

[DevilsCups]

I’m sensitive to them and feel it makes the beer smell and taste slightly light BO, which makes sense since thiols are sulfur compounds

Ha! Interesting. I've always found thiol heavy beers to have a distinct "cologne" type of flavor and aroma. I never mind it really, but it always sticks out that way to me.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

The general consensus seems to be that patB is "too much", and ends up being just one-dimensional thiols.

That is what I got with the one batch I made with Helio Gazer. There was this single note character that really stood out and dominated the overall flavor of the beer. I have been a little curious to try a more tame version like Cosmic Punch. A buddy made a lager with Lunar Crush. It was "interesting"...rather "hoppy" for the limited amount of hops he used...but I would have just preferred a small whirlpool or dry hop addition.

 

[DevilsCups]

Ladies and gents.....I have a problem, and I can't find a solution. I'm leaving almost all of my dry-hop effects behind in my fermenter.

I've been battling this for quite some time now. My most recent batch was kegged a few days ago, and it's once again underwhelming. Vague hop aromas and wispy body. Just another underwhelming hoppy beer. This thing was hit with 6oz of Strata and 2oz of Mosaic. It should stink, and stink great. A 5.6% pale-ale-ish NEIPA/NEPA. 82% MO and 13% Chit, 5% hulls. Imperial Juice.

I went to clean the fermenter today (6gal modded Mega Mouth keg), and the matter left behind smelled absolutely phenomenal. Absolute pulpy, tropical guava juice, and absolutely none of which is translating to the final product.

I'm at a total loss here. Not to sound conceited at ALL, but I know my way around this stuff, which is why its so frustrating. I've brewed countless 4BBL batches commercially, and collab'd with the best. You can assume I do absolutely everything correct, and I still end up with flabby awful homebrew. Losing my mind.

Spitball with me here. Ask me anything about my process, though I'm sure most of the answers will ring the bell of "yeah, sounds like you have everything lined up right". I can't find a solution and can't find anyone to lean on further to help me solve this. As soon as these beers go into the keg and get poured, they just suck.

 

[malhal]

Yeast can act like fining agent and pull the hop oils down if not removed before dry hopping. Are you cold crashing and removing yeast before dry hop?

 

[DevilsCups]

Yeast can act like fining agent and pull the hop oils down if not removed before dry hopping. Are you cold crashing and removing yeast before dry hop?

I'm fermenting in a keg, so no yeast drop. I soft crash to around 58-60ºF and dry-hop O2 free after fermentation is complete.

You'd have no idea I whacked it with 8oz. This time around I also experimented with rousing, by adding a liquid dip-tube to the gas-in port on the keg. i understand it also rouses the yeast, but there was very little perceptible difference in the end-product. It definitely made a difference in the smell of the trub in the fermenter today, though. It smelled fantastic, and exactly what I wanted the beer itself to smell and taste like.

 

[Dgallo]

Ladies and gents.....I have a problem, and I can't find a solution. I'm leaving almost all of my dry-hop effects behind in my fermenter.

I've been battling this for quite some time now. My most recent batch was kegged a few days ago, and it's once again underwhelming. Vague hop aromas and wispy body. Just another underwhelming hoppy beer. This thing was hit with 6oz of Strata and 2oz of Mosaic. It should stink, and stink great. A 5.6% pale-ale-ish NEIPA/NEPA. 82% MO and 13% Chit, 5% hulls. Imperial Juice.

I went to clean the fermenter today (6gal modded Mega Mouth keg), and the matter left behind smelled absolutely phenomenal. Absolute pulpy, tropical guava juice, and absolutely none of which is translating to the final product.

I'm at a total loss here. Not to sound conceited at ALL, but I know my way around this stuff, which is why its so frustrating. I've brewed countless 4BBL batches commercially, and collab'd with the best. You can assume I do absolutely everything correct, and I still end up with flabby awful homebrew. Losing my mind.

Spitball with me here. Ask me anything about my process, though I'm sure most of the answers will ring the bell of "yeah, sounds like you have everything lined up right". I can't find a solution and can't find anyone to lean on further to help me solve this. As soon as these beers go into the keg and get poured, they just suck.

Honestly would need a full rundown, especially coldside, of your typical process (recipe, hop supplier, ferm temp, full dryhop process including temp, transferring process, and how prep the serving keg)

Mouthfeel wise, it’s a sub 6% beer so I wouldn’t expect it to be super full unless your finishing in the 1.020s

 

[DevilsCups]

Mouthfeel wise, it’s a sub 6% beer so I wouldn’t expect it to be super full unless your finishing in the 1.020s

I hear that. I definitely wasn't expecting a full beer, but even bigger beers I brew all end up *feeling* like 1.008, even though they all measure 1.014+ at minimum. I'd say mouthfeel is the least of my worries at the moment! Haha.

You can definitely assume all of my processes are as they should be. For reference I can walk through some :

- This recipe was as posted before. I mainly brew 80-85% base and 15-20% of some mix of flaked oats, oat malt or chit.

- Hops either from YVH (mostly) with some HopsDirect. I've brewed batches with good Nelson that you'd never guess had Nelson

- Ferm temp starting around 68ºF for either Juice or Verdant, ramped to 72ºF. The occasional warmer pitch at 70ºF+. Pitch rates are on-point for either.

- Dry-hopped with a dropper, purged, after FG is reached and measured steady. I've pressure fermented and non-pressure fermented. This recent batch I roused, as noted. Everything happens in primary. I'm an O2 mitigation freak.

- Kegs are filled with StarSan and pushed. Fermenter receives 15psi and receiving keg receives around 12psi with a spunding valve on the gas-in. I flow beer through the disconnect to pack the transfer line and discard prior to connecting to the serving keg, in order to purge the liquid line.

 

[Dgallo]

I'm fermenting in a keg, so no yeast drop. I soft crash to around 58-60ºF and dry-hop O2 free after fermentation is complete.

Have you thought about using another keg, with a floating diptube installed, as a dryhoping/serving keg? Ferment in the one and then crash. Then transfer off the yeast into a purged keg preloaded with your dryhop. Then you can rock and roll the keg for agitation and full crash carb, then serve

 

[DevilsCups]

Have you thought about using another keg, with a floating diptube installed, as a dryhoping/serving keg? Ferment in the one and then crash. Then transfer off the yeast into a purged keg preloaded with your dryhop. Then you can rock and roll the keg for agitation and full crash carb, then serve

I've considered it for sure, but a part of me feels like I should be able to pump out a good beer with this process. I'll eventually give that a shot though, out of curiosity.

I'd want another Mega Mouth for a "dry-hop" keg though, so I'll have to wait for that until I can scoop another.

 

[DonT]

Deleted. My phone only showed me one response... didn't see the whole day's worth...

 

[Dgallo]

- Dry-hopped with a dropper, purged, after FG is reached and measured steady. I've pressure fermented and non-pressure fermented. This recent batch I roused, as noted. Everything happens in primary. I'm an O2 mitigation freak.

My thoughts on this is that an 8 oz dryhop with yeast present is definitely on the lower side. For this specific beer rousing the hops while resuspended trub and yeast, causing a striping effect on the hop compounds as they are positively attracted to the yeast. Also, since the hops are heavier than the trub/yeasts, once it was responded, the hops dropped out first then the trub/yeast settled on top, sealing out the hops and preventing further extraction into the beer.

In terms of body, you’re using higher protein grains so that shouldn’t be the issue. The other two things that add significant body is upping the FG and increasing the polyphenols from dryhoping, so maybe try increasing your dryhop rate.

The beers you finished 1.008, what was the grain bill, og, and mash schedule. As that seems quite low if you’re not specifically trying to brew a highly fermentable wort. If your target FG was much higher, I would be concerned with diastaticus infection from either a previously used yeast strain that carried the STA1 gene or a wild yeast/bacterial infection.

 

[DevilsCups]

My thoughts on this is that an 8 oz dryhop with yeast present is definitely on the lower side. For this specific beer rousing the hops while resuspended trub and yeast, causing a striping effect on the hop compounds as they are positively attracted to the yeast. Also, since the hops are heavier than the trub/yeasts, once it was responded, the hops dropped out first then the trub/yeast settled on top, sealing out the hops and preventing further extraction into the beer.

In terms of body, you’re using higher protein grains so that shouldn’t be the issue. The other two things that add significant body is upping the FG and increasing the polyphenols from dryhoping, so maybe try increasing your dryhop rate.

The beers you finished 1.008, what was the grain bill, og, and mash schedule. As that seems quite low if you’re not specifically trying to brew a highly fermentable wort. If your target FG was much higher, I would be concerned with diastaticus infection from either a previously used yeast strain that carried the STA1 gene or a wild yeast/bacterial infection.

Just to clarify, I don't actually have beers finishing at 1.008, they just occasionally drink like they land there, even though they measure properly.

This is the first time I've roused anything, in an attempted experiment. It yielded a tiny bit more of a difference, but not as much as I anticipated. When unsealing the fermenter I could see there was plenty of hop matter on top of the trub, but it could be a factor. All of this was done cooler as well, around 58ºF, so interaction could be at play but yeast activity should have been somewhat mitigated eh?

The only thing I can think about addressing next would be my sparge pH. It might be too high. One would think that it would make a minimal difference, but I'm at the point where I'm pulling at straws. There's too much "crispness" and tannic feeling in the final product once its kegged and carbed.

I also get into uncomfortable territory with more than 8oz of dry-hops in a 5.6% beer, but that might just be my hesitation speaking. Knowing that most dry-hop rates for modern NE's are much higher nowadays it might be a necessity. That being said, the leftover trub/hops in the fermenter smelled so good and none of the notes translated, which is frustrating.

 

[beervoid]

Just to clarify, I don't actually have beers finishing at 1.008, they just occasionally drink like they land there, even though they measure properly.

This is the first time I've roused anything, in an attempted experiment. It yielded a tiny bit more of a difference, but not as much as I anticipated. When unsealing the fermenter I could see there was plenty of hop matter on top of the trub, but it could be a factor. All of this was done cooler as well, around 58ºF, so interaction could be at play but yeast activity should have been somewhat mitigated eh?

The only thing I can think about addressing next would be my sparge pH. It might be too high. One would think that it would make a minimal difference, but I'm at the point where I'm pulling at straws. There's too much "crispness" and tannic feeling in the final product once its kegged and carbed.

I also get into uncomfortable territory with more than 8oz of dry-hops in a 5.6% beer, but that might just be my hesitation speaking. Knowing that most dry-hop rates for modern NE's are much higher nowadays it might be a necessity. That being said, the leftover trub/hops in the fermenter smelled so good and none of the notes translated, which is frustrating.

Are you dryhopping lose?
Maybe dryhop a bit later, make sure the trub has fallen, drop temp helps with that. and after dryhopping put some pressure to push them in so you are sure they don't float.
I use kegs all the time for test batches, 8oz should give more then enough hoppyness.

 

[DevilsCups]

Dry-hopping loose, yes, through a purged hop-dropper and 2" valve.

The beers are garbage. I don't know any other way to put it.