New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

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Regarding yeast, maybe cool it down further i.e. into the 40's and for longer? Or add some biofine through the PRV hole and wait a few days before hopping?

Have others tried the beers and had similar results? On the tiny chance that your own pallet has somehow changed.

 

[DevilsCups]

It's something I've been struggling with for quite some time, going way back to when I was brewing commercially. Brought some to share with my head brewer, went over all processes and even he was at a loss.

Any time I attempt to aggressively or moderately hop a beer it ends up having this odd-ball "pencil shaving" note, with a bit of a strange thiol style essence. It's somewhat similar to the notes you'd get from thiolized yeast. Somewhat rotty and nondescript.

 

[DevilsCups]

I have a batch planned for either this weekend or next weekend, and maybe I can lean on the fine people here to see if I can make this one a success, for once. I plan on throwing a ton of Nelson/Riwaka at it, so if you'd like to lend some input on hopping I'd be all ears. Also have some Simcoe, Mosaic, Citra, CTZ, Cascade.

It will be 80% Sugar Creek Pale and 20% flaked oats. Imperial Juice again (I also have Pomona / Verdant on hand). Aiming for 1.069 OG.

 

[agentbud]

Regarding yeast, maybe cool it down further i.e. into the 40's and for longer? Or add some biofine through the PRV hole and wait a few days before hopping?

Have others tried the beers and had similar results? On the tiny chance that your own pallet has somehow changed.

^^ - would also like to know if other people are detecting the same "issues" with your beers. Some medical issues (ie Covid) can have long lasting effects on one's taste and smell senses... just a thought.

 

[DevilsCups]

Yes, it is detectable. I've thought about that too for sure, but all is well on that front. I can drink say, my beers side-to-side with any slew of hoppy beers from breweries laying around and it's evident.

It's very frustrating. I've brewed countless commercial batches that have been pretty well received by the masses, and at home I continue to stumble on my own necktie.

 

[agentbud]

do you have a fellow brewer that would let you brew/ferment/keg a batch at their location and using their equipment just to rule out a problem with your setup? ie contamination from a prior beer, etc

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Somewhat rotty and nondescript.

^^ - would also like to know if other people are detecting the same "issues" with your beers. Some medical issues (ie Covid) can have long lasting effects on one's taste and smell senses... just a thought.

My immediate thought too - long Covid has selectively knocked out a lot of my detection of fruity/estery smells/flavours, like I'm colourblind but for flavour, but it has also left me tasting anything with a lot of Citra as having a lot of that overripe/rotten pineapple flavour.

So maybe avoid Citra (whereas eg Mosaic is relatively intact for me), and try to use similar hops to a commercial one that you know tastes OK to you?

 

[DevilsCups]

do you have a fellow brewer that would let you brew/ferment/keg a batch at their location and using their equipment just to rule out a problem with your setup? ie contamination from a prior beer, etc

I do not, sadly. I will say though, that to help mitigate or solve this issue my fermenting setup is all brand new. I've also swapped out/nuked my kegs a few times. A real head-scratcher.

My next 2 courses of action are : paying attention to my sparge pH next batch (unlikely a silver bullet), as maybe I'm bombing by batches with tannin extraction. I also ordered up some SaniClean to use in lieu of my StarSan. Another unlikely change, but it's worth a shot.

Totally appreciate and understand the suggestions for personal sensory! Please don't get me wrong! I will say that I can most likely rule that out for various reasons.

 

[DevilsCups]

I'm also going to let this run through in primary for a bit of an extended time, maybe 2 weeks. I'm usually at FG in 4-5 days, and I give an extra 2-3 days for FG confirmation.

 

[aaronm13]

I do not, sadly. I will say though, that to help mitigate or solve this issue my fermenting setup is all brand new. I've also swapped out/nuked my kegs a few times. A real head-scratcher.

My next 2 courses of action are : paying attention to my sparge pH next batch (unlikely a silver bullet), as maybe I'm bombing by batches with tannin extraction. I also ordered up some SaniClean to use in lieu of my StarSan. Another unlikely change, but it's worth a shot.

Totally appreciate and understand the suggestions for personal sensory! Please don't get me wrong! I will say that I can most likely rule that out for various reasons.

Going over your posts and trying to come up with something that might help and I keep coming back to the elephant in the room as Dgallo said originally, try and dry hop in a separate keg/vessel after a soft crash. If you do this I really think you'll notice a massive difference especially if you rouse like you did in your last beer. On paper, everything else in your process seems sound. For process of elimination I would give this a try.

 

[DevilsCups]

I'll look into "liquidating" some equipment from inventory that I don't use and maybe trying to get another keg. Thanks for the doubled up suggestion!

 

[Dgallo]

I'll look into "liquidating" some equipment from inventory that I don't use and maybe trying to get another keg. Thanks for the doubled up suggestion!

You could also go with fermonster and use my close transfer build to modify the lid. It’s about 40 for the fb and another 30-40 for the other parts. Def an option

 

[DevilsCups]

You could also go with fermonster and use my close transfer build to modify the lid. It’s about 40 for the fb and another 30-40 for the other parts. Def an option

I used this exact setup around 10-12 years ago. It worked well. Moved onto an SSBT Brewbucket and now a keg setup, pictured below. Interestingly, I never had a problem ever when using the Fermonster haha

 

[Dgallo]

I used this exact setup around 10-12 years ago. It worked well. Moved onto an SSBT Brewbucket and now a keg setup, pictured below. Interestingly, I never had a problem ever when using the Fermonster haha

View attachment 866988

View attachment 866989

Yeah I was just saying you could use that set up as it’s quite affordable compared to a new keg, as you said you would need to liquidate some equipment.

There definitely something up if you think the beers are garbage. If it’s not o2 or an issue with your process, then maybe it’s biological but I’d expected that you’d notice off flavors.

 

[DevilsCups]

Yeah, something - somewhere - is making this a whole big thing, and I haven't narrowed it down. If you knew about what equipment I've replaced or changed, you'd be sick to your stomach haha.

My thought behind another keg setup is two-fold. I have this current Torpedo keg fermenter set up for pressure ferm's and also for purged dry-hopping. If I got an equivalent second unit, I could prefill the keg with dry-hops through the dropper while still purging with a sanitizer-push like i do now. I could also just use it as a second fermenter when brewing non-hoppy beers if need be. Alternatively, I could get a Fermonster and ferment in that and transfer to the keg, but that would limit my keg somewhat to "dry-hop duty". It's nice to be able to spund when needed.

I'm a bit of a freak with sanitation, so this is driving me nuts. I've replaced hoses, my hot-side brew setup, fermenter, gas manifolds, gas tanks, cleaned my faucets twice, etc etc etc. Lunacy!

Maybe it's something just so simple, like giving my beers more time, or something stupid like sparge pH. I'm still chasing the tail of the dragon, and I won't stop until I get to where I want to be.

 

[tdf]

Yeah, something - somewhere - is making this a whole big thing, and I haven't narrowed it down. If you knew about what equipment I've replaced or changed, you'd be sick to your stomach haha.

My thought behind another keg setup is two-fold. I have this current Torpedo keg fermenter set up for pressure ferm's and also for purged dry-hopping. If I got an equivalent second unit, I could prefill the keg with dry-hops through the dropper while still purging with a sanitizer-push like i do now. I could also just use it as a second fermenter when brewing non-hoppy beers if need be. Alternatively, I could get a Fermonster and ferment in that and transfer to the keg, but that would limit my keg somewhat to "dry-hop duty". It's nice to be able to spund when needed.

I'm a bit of a freak with sanitation, so this is driving me nuts. I've replaced hoses, my hot-side brew setup, fermenter, gas manifolds, gas tanks, cleaned my faucets twice, etc etc etc. Lunacy!

Maybe it's something just so simple, like giving my beers more time, or something stupid like sparge pH. I'm still chasing the tail of the dragon, and I won't stop until I get to where I want to be.

Do you measure post boil and post fermentation PH? That can have a big effect on hop aroma flavor in particular. I like to adjust to 5.0 post boil.

I don't think you've mentioned anything about your water, which is another potential culprit. What do you start with and what adjustments do you make?

Finally, it's worth pointing that you're going to get a lot more aroma from a room temperature fermentor that's basically hop sludge than from a chilled beer, no matter what. 8oz dry hop is on the low side for this style so you may just want more.

 

[Dgallo]

Do you measure post boil and post fermentation PH? That can have a big effect on hop aroma in particular. I like to adjust to 5.0 post boil.

This is new to me.

From my understanding. Adjusting your KO ph is to smooth the bitterness, promote haze stability, and help bring your post fermentation ph lower so that post dryhop your landing 4.4-4.5, as 4.5+ can come across more astringent. I will definitely say aiming for a 5.0 KO ph is a great and should be done as the flavor of the beer benefits from a smoothness but personally never seen or experienced a difference in aroma per se.

Do you happen to have the article or post where you read that saved? And if so can you share it.

 

[tdf]

This is new to me.

From my understanding. Adjusting your KO ph is to smooth the bitterness, promote haze stability, and help bring your post fermentation ph lower so that post dryhop your landing 4.4-4.5, as 4.5+ can come across more astringent. I will definitely say aiming for a 5.0 KO ph is a great and should be done as the flavor of the beer benefits from a smoothness but personally never seen or experienced a difference in aroma per se.

Do you happen to have the article or post where you read that saved? And if so can you share it.

Oops, I wrote aroma while thinking flavor. Some literature (which you have probably already seen)
https://scottjanish.com/a-look-at-ph-in-hoppy-beers/

You'll see the discussion about fruity vs polyphenol/herbal flavors.

 

[TwitchellBrew]

I do not, sadly. I will say though, that to help mitigate or solve this issue my fermenting setup is all brand new. I've also swapped out/nuked my kegs a few times. A real head-scratcher.

My next 2 courses of action are : paying attention to my sparge pH next batch (unlikely a silver bullet), as maybe I'm bombing by batches with tannin extraction. I also ordered up some SaniClean to use in lieu of my StarSan. Another unlikely change, but it's worth a shot.

Totally appreciate and understand the suggestions for personal sensory! Please don't get me wrong! I will say that I can most likely rule that out for various reasons.

Sorry to hear about these struggles! What do your other beers taste like? Is this only a hoppy beer issue? Based on everything that’s been discussed I really don’t think this is process driven except maybe sparge ph and it sounds like you’re looking into this already. The other culprit then would be infection somewhere and obviously changing equipment will fix that. Shot in the dark here but: do you save and reuse Star San? Those buckets can pick up some nasties above the line where the Star San is. And if you don’t reuse, do you clean and sanitize the Star San bucket before filling? Some folks neglect this since there’s sanitizer in it. At any rate, I’m betting the change in equipment coupled with checking sparge ph does the trick.

 

[DevilsCups]

Do you measure post boil and post fermentation PH? That can have a big effect on hop aroma flavor in particular. I like to adjust to 5.0 post boil.

I don't think you've mentioned anything about your water, which is another potential culprit. What do you start with and what adjustments do you make?

Finally, it's worth pointing that you're going to get a lot more aroma from a room temperature fermentor that's basically hop sludge than from a chilled beer, no matter what. 8oz dry hop is on the low side for this style so you may just want more.

Thanks for the questions! I do pay attention to pH throughout. I aim for 5.2-5.2 in the mash, 4.6-5.0 for knockout pH. When commercial, we always adjusted to 5.0 pre-whirlpool addition.

Water is either my NYC sourced tap-water (as close to RO as you can get from a tap), treated with campden, or store vended RO. Adjusted with calcium chloride, gypsum/epsom, and lactic or phosphoric.

 

[DevilsCups]

Shot in the dark here but: do you save and reuse Star San? Those buckets can pick up some nasties above the line where the Star San is. And if you don’t reuse, do you clean and sanitize the Star San bucket before filling? Some folks neglect this since there’s sanitizer in it. At any rate, I’m betting the change in equipment coupled with checking sparge ph does the trick.

With Star San, I'm typically filling a cleaned keg full with water, adding 1oz of Star San, pressurizing/purging the minimal headspace left and rolling/tumbling, shaking it around for a while to make sure it's diluted and spread. Then, I push out with CO2. It's typically freshly mixed Star San. If I can, I'll occasionally save the pushed sanitizer in a spare keg, but not for long and not too often.

 

[DevilsCups]

What do your other beers taste like? Is this only a hoppy beer issue?

If I'm being 100% honest, I'm not pleased with my other beers either.

 

[anteater8]

Going over your posts and trying to come up with something that might help and I keep coming back to the elephant in the room as Dgallo said originally, try and dry hop in a separate keg/vessel after a soft crash. If you do this I really think you'll notice a massive difference especially if you rouse like you did in your last beer. On paper, everything else in your process seems sound. For process of elimination I would give this a try.

This is the one process improvement I'm so curious to do, but just can't get myself to clean/purge/re-clean a keg... How much of an improvement do folks think this makes, 5%, 50%?

 

[DevilsCups]

Also curious about this.

Back when I brewed a batch with Steve at Fidens (going back a few years ago), we chatted about homebrewing. He did say that his beers never clicked until he started hopping in a separate keg. I always resisted to it for a few reasons. One - I live and brew in an apartment, so space saving is nice. And two - people seem to be able to pull it off without doing so, so I wanted to see if and why I couldn't too.

Bonus pic from that day! It was still peak COVID time for that batch haha.

 

[anteater8]

Yeah, something - somewhere - is making this a whole big thing, and I haven't narrowed it down. If you knew about what equipment I've replaced or changed, you'd be sick to your stomach haha.

My thought behind another keg setup is two-fold. I have this current Torpedo keg fermenter set up for pressure ferm's and also for purged dry-hopping. If I got an equivalent second unit, I could prefill the keg with dry-hops through the dropper while still purging with a sanitizer-push like i do now. I could also just use it as a second fermenter when brewing non-hoppy beers if need be. Alternatively, I could get a Fermonster and ferment in that and transfer to the keg, but that would limit my keg somewhat to "dry-hop duty". It's nice to be able to spund when needed.

I'm a bit of a freak with sanitation, so this is driving me nuts. I've replaced hoses, my hot-side brew setup, fermenter, gas manifolds, gas tanks, cleaned my faucets twice, etc etc etc. Lunacy!

Maybe it's something just so simple, like giving my beers more time, or something stupid like sparge pH. I'm still chasing the tail of the dragon, and I won't stop until I get to where I want to be.

I feel for you man. I had 5+ batches in a row with a weird plastic taste one time and could not figure out what was causing it for the life of me. I replaced equipment, changed my process, and one day it was finally gone and I have absolutely no idea why!

I've really been enjoying reading the responses of everyone trying to help diagnose this issue though, such a great thread we've got here.

The only thing that sort of stuck out to me is potentially giving your beers more time. I tend to give fermentation 10-12 days, soft crash 2 days, dry hop 2 days, cold crash 2 days and then keg. I used to try compress everything so I could brew every 2 weeks, and its just easier this way, plus the beers turn out well. I also seem to have a longer time in the keg than most people before I'm happy to drink the beer, 2-3 weeks minimum. No idea if that will help!

 

[DevilsCups]

Hey, thanks man! Giving a bit more time is definitely on the agenda for this next batch. I'm thinking of giving it upwards of a full 2 weeks in primary before doing anything (dry-hopping etc).

Back in the day, maybe 7-8 years ago, I'd be dry-hopping twice - on day 3 and on maybe day 7, all at fermentation temp. The beers were mostly fine. Nowadays, with trying to follow the zeitgeist, I've not seen many levels of success, so definitely frustrating.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I also don't start my soft crash until almost 2 weeks, then I begin my dryhop process. I'm a
Using a conical though and dump yeast and trub throughout my process. But I've found I get a better product if I don't rush it. I have a batch going now that I brewed this past weekend, I won't soft crash until next week, problem is ill be away for week after that so this batch will have an extended time in the fermenter anyway and I'll dry hop after I get back. Don't want those hops in there for that long.

 

[secretlevel]

It's something I've been struggling with for quite some time, going way back to when I was brewing commercially. Brought some to share with my head brewer, went over all processes and even he was at a loss.

Any time I attempt to aggressively or moderately hop a beer it ends up having this odd-ball "pencil shaving" note, with a bit of a strange thiol style essence. It's somewhat similar to the notes you'd get from thiolized yeast. Somewhat rotty and nondescript.

Pencil shavings is something I got from bad Galaxy lots before but I could also attribute that to a beer being too chalky due to high CaCl levels.

 

[Spetz]

Firstly, great thread and great input from everyone trying to diagnose whatever is happening to your beers @DevilsCups, feeling your pain.

Also curious about this.

Back when I brewed a batch with Steve at Fidens (going back a few years ago), we chatted about homebrewing. He did say that his beers never clicked until he started hopping in a separate keg. I always resisted to it for a few reasons. One - I live and brew in an apartment, so space saving is nice. And two - people seem to be able to pull it off without doing so, so I wanted to see if and why I couldn't too.

Bonus pic from that day! It was still peak COVID time for that batch haha.

Specific to NEIPA/Hazy beers:

I noticed a ginormous difference the first time I started properly loose keg hopping, in both flavour and appearance. Went from FV hopping in a bag, to loose hopping in the FV (without any form of crashing other than soft crash (14C) to avoid ye olde creep), to eventually loose hopping in the keg. It totally transformed my beers, however (as previously mentioned by yourself) I appreciate this is down to taste.

I think the key (as many have said) is to get as much yeast out of suspension as possible before dry hopping in an FV. If you are loose hopping in a keg, you can kind of cheat your way around it slightly if you really need to since you have ample opportunity to rouse as much as you want by flipping it over numerous times a day for a few days before properly crashing to serve/cold crash temp - not worrying about oxidation since you're in a keg (assuming you are happy with your transfer + purge process), and not worrying about hop creep assuming you're at the correct temperature. For sure this method still runs the risk of yeast 'latching' on to those precious hop oils (something i'm still so badly trying to put my finger on), but assuming a soft crash or even full cold crash has happened before transfer, I always feel like i'm in a less risky place taking this route.

If planning to rouse dry hops in the FV, the process kind of goes against itself in my experience, unless you are dumping trub and yeast along the way and doing a solid crash before hand, doing a final dump, then ramping back up before dry hopping followed by rousing. This part has always been a real pain in the buttocks to me, which is one of the main reasons I mostly keg hop now.

The one thing that wrecks my brain more than anything is...how to loose dry hop in a keg and achieve a proper purge...the lengths I've gone to in order to achieve this are extremely wasteful on the CO2 front, but so far it seems to have paid off. Keg hopping with a bag is a totally different story, always oxidized garbage and zero hop extraction (specific to this style, with huge amounts of hops). Without a TC corny lid and hop bong, it's an incredibly loose/trial and error process which I totally despise and cannot wait to find a real solution for.

(huge huge respect for the avatar btw dude!)

 

[DevilsCups]

Thanks for the avatar shoutout! Long live the Supervillain.

RE: hopping in the serving keg while mitigating O2 exposure : I had a plan for this if I ever had to go this route. Right now I dry-hop through a 2" ferrule I have on my Torpedo Keg fermenter, via a butterfly valve and 2" hop-bong. I figured if I ever had to dry-hop in the serving keg (a "normal" corny), I'd find a lid that had or could accept a 1.5" minimum ferrule, get an adapter and lower-profile valve, and see if I could make it work. Thinking - push sani to purge and sanitize, drop the hops into the pressurized keg, and then fill. It would be cumbersome up top but should work.

It does sound like getting the yeast out of the way is a widely agreed upon method, which would eventually call for a second Torpedo for me. I emailed Bobby at BH to see what it would cost to put another one together for me, should I go that route.

I'll be honest - I've likely not given a ton of time between the soft crash and dry-hop. Maybe 2-3 days at max, which might not be enough for them to go fully dormant. I have one more batch I'm going to do this weekend with a few tweaks. Please, by all means, if anyone wants to lend a hop schedule for me I'd be all ears! Working with an inventory of Nelson, Riwaka, Citra, Mosaic, Cascade, CTZ in sufficient amounts.

I'd like to :

- Monitor my sparge pH fully this time.
- Dry-hop earlier, and at fermentation temp.
- Use ALDC with the dry-hop.