New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

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This says more about the validity of the "xBmts" than effect of oxidation, which is very real, can be statistically determined over a large population size, and measured with lab equipment :rolleyes:

I think it's more about whether it's perceivable, and if we drink it before it gets to a noticeable point. Don't think it is trying to disprove the actual existence of oxidation.
 
I think it's more about whether it's perceivable, and if we drink it before it gets to a noticeable point. Don't think it is trying to disprove the actual existence of oxidation.

I agree with this. The dissolved oxygen amounts are of course measurable with equipment, but the question is whether or not the human palette can distinguish the variable in question. In this case no, but if you read the article you'll see that he racks to an un-purged keg in both scenarios. So really its a question of some oxidation vs a little more. It would be cool if they took DO measurements before and after though. I'm sure they will follow up with more Xbmts in doing purged kegs vs un-purged. I think experimental brewing did an experiment like that recently, I'll have to look up the results
 
This says more about the validity of the "xBmts" than effect of oxidation, which is very real, can be statistically determined over a large population size, and measured with lab equipment :rolleyes:

I think what a lot of these tell us (ultimately) is that the vast majority of people just, simply, cannot identify "off flavors" or "differences" when sampling beer.

I think the xBmts are generally set up fairly well. I think there probably is differences in the beers that could be "measured" in a lab..... I just think, in general, most people can't really tell the differences reliably. A person's "mind" is a pretty crappy instrument for measuring things.

Once you get beyond "This tastes good now" or "This does not taste good to me right now"...... I think people basically suck at most perceptions beyond that. (I include myself in this judgement too).
 
Agree 100%. These beers everyone is clamoring for (in large part due to their rarity) are not shelf stable and drop off a cliff quickly due to what is really poor brewing/packaging practice. That's why this fad will come and go like so many before them.

I can handle the lack of being shelf stable..... If the beer is good when it is young, and I like it..... I will buy it and drink it young.

However, when you get a can or bottle like that one in the picture..... it had problems right off the bat. I don't want a beer like that on day one, or day 50.....
 
In this case no, but if you read the article you'll see that he racks to an un-purged keg in both scenarios. So really its a question of some oxidation vs a little more. It would be cool if they took DO measurements before and after though. I'm sure they will follow up with more Xbmts in doing purged kegs vs un-purged. I think experimental brewing did an experiment like that recently, I'll have to look up the results

That is a good point - if they did not actually take any DO readings, this really did not test the effects of oxidation. it tested the perception of a beer with 2 different kegging processes ....processes that may or may not have had the same or different levels of oxidation...
 
Brewed up a 1:1 Citra:Equinox version of this beer over the weekend, my 5th time using this recipe and tweaking the hops. Will report back when I'm drinking it in a few weeks! :D
 
Hoof Hearted Brewing is going to release a DIPA on New Year's Eve with mosaic and simcoe and they are saying it's going into regular rotation
 
Am I missing something with "cold crashing" debate on these NEIPA's? Regardless of when in the process, an IPA is always cold crashed at some point in the process - beer is served chilled.....

Option A: Ferment (68F), cold crash (33F) to drop yeast / trub / etc in fermenter, then transfer to keg and dryhop (68F), then chill (40F) and carbonate to serve. (appears to be the minority in this thread)

Option B: (often cited here) Ferment (68F), transfer to keg and dryhop (68F), then chill (40F) and carbonate to serve

Logically speaking, the "chill to serve" in version B equates to being the same as a cold crash. So many folks that use this method talk about "dumping the first couple of pints". Isn't the stuff being dumped the same stuff as what would have been removed in the cold crash in option A, or am I missing something?

If it is the same stuff, then wouldn't option A be preferred since it results in minimal yeast & trub in the final keg? Plus since most of the yeast has been dropped before the final dryhop, all of the precious hop oils have a greater potential to remain suspended in the final product and thus improve the final product. (Yes, I know you can never get all the yeast out of suspension.)


I do option A every time. No clogging of dip tube lines and no hop flakes in my final beer. If I don't cold crash, my kegs clog.
 
I do option A every time. No clogging of dip tube lines and no hop flakes in my final beer. If I don't cold crash, my kegs clog.

why even dry hop in the keg? why not just dry hop in the primary and transfer direct to serving keg - force carb that while in the keezer (or whatever), discard first pint and be done with it?
 
why even dry hop in the keg? why not just dry hop in the primary and transfer direct to serving keg - force carb that while in the keezer (or whatever), discard first pint and be done with it?

^this. I have no floaties after the first couple pours
 
why even dry hop in the keg? why not just dry hop in the primary and transfer direct to serving keg - force carb that while in the keezer (or whatever), discard first pint and be done with it?


I don't dry hop in keg. Just in primary.

I cold crash my primary, then keg.
 
^this. I have no floaties after the first couple pours

I think it ends up being 6 of one and a half dozen of the others.... I have no floaties in any of my pours by doing the dry hoping before the serving keg.

My main motivation for the methods I use is that it is a tremendous PITA if you start clogging up your liquid out post on the get you plan to serve from. I like to avoid as much hop particulate as possible in any of the steps where I am pushing beer.... It only takes 2 or 3 bad clogs for you to realize you don't want to go that route again.

Either way can work though depending on your system and procedure.:mug:
 
I rigged up a system similar to that blog post in the original. It's the better bottle stainless filter from Utah biodeisel. Fits great inside of a pin lock keg. The drilled stopper fits perfectly.

This is great for dryhopping and I've also used it to make fruited beers. Love it.

I also have a dip tube screen around the base of the diptube. Makes the whole thing a bit of a puzzle to put together. I'm not sure if I even need that though. Just been too chicken to try it without it so far.

https://imgur.com/piuJRZw
 
I rigged up a system similar to that blog post in the original. It's the better bottle stainless filter from Utah biodeisel. Fits great inside of a pin lock keg. The drilled stopper fits perfectly.

This is great for dryhopping and I've also used it to make fruited beers. Love it.

I also have a dip tube screen around the base of the diptube. Makes the whole thing a bit of a puzzle to put together. I'm not sure if I even need that though. Just been too chicken to try it without it so far.

https://imgur.com/piuJRZw

That looks like a nice setup. I just have the 2.5" diameter corny keg dry hopper with an open top in mine which limits my ability to shake up after the hops settle. I also can't fill the keg all the way or floating hops will end up in the strainer. I really just need to stop being lazy and drill the top of the corny keg strainer so it seals off.
 
Just brewed up 2 batches of the following recipe today and utilized 2 different yeast strains to try out.

1) Imperial Yeast - A38 Juice
2) Imperial Yeast - A24 Dryhop


Paper Umbrella NE IPA

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: American IPA
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.055
Efficiency: 60% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.074
Final Gravity: 1.018
ABV (standard): 7.45%
IBU (tinseth): 31.61
SRM (morey): 5.79

FERMENTABLES:
American - Pale 2-Row (73.2%)
Corn Sugar - Dextrose (4.2%)
American - Caramel / Crystal 15L (2.8%)
American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) (2.8%)
American - White Wheat (8.5%)
Flaked Oats (8.5%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Mosaic, Type: Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 31.61
2 oz - Galaxy, Type: Whirlpool for 30 min at 170 °F
2 oz - Citra, Type: Whirlpool for 30 min at 170 °F
2 oz - Mosaic, Type: Whirlpool for 30 min at 170 °F
3 oz - Galaxy, Type: Dry Hop for 5 days
3 oz - Citra, Type: Dry Hop for 5 days
3 oz - Mosaic, Type: Dry Hop for 5 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 152 F, Time: 60 min
2) Sparge, Temp: 168 F, Time: 15 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.25 qt/lb

WATER NOTES:
take initial ph reading
approx 1 teaspoon of calcium chloride
take pH reading to target 5.2 ph
1 teaspoon of gypsum to mash.
1 teaspoon of gypsum to boil.
 
@grassfeeder
Looking forward to how those yeasts turn out for you. I've been wanting to try each of those out but can't find them locally or online.
 
That is a good point - if they did not actually take any DO readings, this really did not test the effects of oxidation. it tested the perception of a beer with 2 different kegging processes ....processes that may or may not have had the same or different levels of oxidation...


Sorry I am late to this conversation... I posted likewise on FB, but my very strong bet is both beers were oxidized. It only takes a little and they did nothing to mitigate that little. The fact is for the most part we all drink oxidized beer and enjoy it because it is still good and most often better than commercial offerings.

I find it very interesting that most (~70%) of Brulosophy's trials fail to achieve statistical significance. I agree with you Brau that most cannot detect off flavors, nor have quality palettes... or are possibly just drunks?!?
 
I agree with you Brau that most cannot detect off flavors, nor have quality palettes... or are possibly just drunks?!?

I think it may also be a matter of training your palette. If you don't know what the resulting flavors are, then how can you judge it?

I would also say oxidation is different in a lot of ways than typical off flavors such as esters, phenolics or even diacetyl. Those are strong flavors, while oxidation isn't so much a flavor as much as a dullness in flavor.
 
I think it may also be a matter of training your palette. If you don't know what the resulting flavors are, then how can you judge it?

I would also say oxidation is different in a lot of ways than typical off flavors such as esters, phenolics or even diacetyl. Those are strong flavors, while oxidation isn't so much a flavor as much as a dullness in flavor.

There's gotta be a reason the big breweries and soda companies spend many, many hours training people to be "tasters." If you want to find something with a very small effect size and you want something to be exactly the sam each time, you have to really know what you are tasting/looking for. Probably, most of us have similar senses of taste and smell overall, but there is also some variation there no doubt.

I think Brulosophy's goal is not to find a group of people who can tell the difference in beers but find out if a sort of generic beer audience can detect flavors in beers. They HAVE done comparisons with some very knowledgeable beer judges and such though. Also, of the people who detect differences in many of their XBMTs, it is often split pretty evenly as to preference. That is kind of interesting to me. If we assume that most of the people who "get it right" are still split, it could mean there is enough variation in people's senses of smell/taste and preferences that it's not as important as we think.

The bottom line: if you are very knowledgeable about and capable of tasting a certain flavor that you deem to be good or bad, you can tailor your brewing to maximize or minimize it. Some people seem not to like a very intense, raw dryhop flavor. I love it. They might think a 3 week old IPA tastes much smoother, rounder and better while I see it as kind of going down hill. I think there is a lot of subjectivity in this. I guess Brau already said as much with his comments on how bad we are at tasting, but this is another perspective the same result I think. Another example is the diatribe against yeasty beer. I don't really see it as a problem most of the time. I don't get GI distress from it, and I *think* there is an interesting character to a super fresh, more yeast IPA. Some people seem to really find it offensive. A lot of this is pretty subjective.

I think it might be valuable to find other people who seem to consistently judge things the same way as us if we are looking to really dial in a process. We always have to be careful to not let our biases get the better of us though. Another of my friends always thinks his beer is good, no matter if it is clearly less fresh/hoppy, whatever. I think we all want to find a reason to love our own beer a lot of the time.
 
I think it may also be a matter of training your palette. If you don't know what the resulting flavors are, then how can you judge it?



I would also say oxidation is different in a lot of ways than typical off flavors such as esters, phenolics or even diacetyl. Those are strong flavors, while oxidation isn't so much a flavor as much as a dullness in flavor.


Agreed. The thing that confounds me about Brulosophy's tests is the tasters don't even need to have a proper palette... just need to be able to tell the difference between 2 beers (among three tested).
 
Agreed. The thing that confounds me about Brulosophy's tests is the tasters don't even need to have a proper palette... just need to be able to tell the difference between 2 beers (among three tested).

Well - that is only the first part of each test. Basically, that is the threshold to even allow commentary on what you think the differences are, etc.

The triangle test is administered first. ONLY people who can identify the different beer are allowed to then answer questions about perceived differences, flavors and preferences.

Bottom line - if you give people a beer, and you tell them to look for the effects of oxygen (or acetaldehyde, or DMS, or different yeast, or phenols..... or whatever.....) you can bet your pay check that people will find it whether it is there or not. It is just human nature and confirmation bias. We see what we look for.

The nice thing about a triangle test is that you first have to prove you can even tell any difference at all between beers. And, using 3 instead of two makes it statistically and practically more difficult. As most of these tests prove - most people just cannot really tell the difference at all. From there, when pressed about what the difference is..... few can articulate it if they have not already been told. And, even the ones who can are generally split on the preference.

Simply put, I really think about the only thing people can regularly tell the difference between is "good beer" vs. "bad beer" and also "styles I like" vs. "styles I don't like."

So, if you get a beer that is basically well brewed...... people are going to like it if it is a style they like and it is served to them within an experience they enjoy (atmosphere, good friends, etc.)

99% of beer drinkers are not sifting through a beer perceiving "levels" of an off flavor in the low to moderate range.

The other thing I noticed when I have done my own sampling is that palette fatigue (especially with hoppy beers) is very, very quick to make an impact. I feel like I can quickly detect some things upon the first or second drinks ...... but, take a couple sips of 2-3 different beers and they just all blend together in a hurry. Especially when you are tasting the same beer with one differing variable....

I actually am pretty decent at tasting and judging beers. I have entered a lot of beer in comps, I routinely judge my own beers and compare to my comp score sheets, I practice scoring commercial examples vs. BJCP scoring templates from Gordon Strong, I passed the BJCP tasting exam easily on my first attempt..... So, I am probably more familiar than an average person with flavors and impacts of brewing processes. Even with a decent amount of experience..... it is REALLY hard to drink repeated samples of very similar beers and consistently pick out differences. It is almost impossible to do it consistently if you don't even know what differences you are looking for. Unless it is a glaring fault, it is tough to do.
 
Well - that is only the first part of each test. Basically, that is the threshold to even allow commentary on what you think the differences are, etc.

The triangle test is administered first. ONLY people who can identify the different beer are allowed to then answer questions about perceived differences, flavors and preferences.

Bottom line - if you give people a beer, and you tell them to look for the effects of oxygen (or acetaldehyde, or DMS, or different yeast, or phenols..... or whatever.....) you can bet your pay check that people will find it whether it is there or not. It is just human nature and confirmation bias. We see what we look for.

The nice thing about a triangle test is that you first have to prove you can even tell any difference at all between beers. And, using 3 instead of two makes it statistically and practically more difficult. As most of these tests prove - most people just cannot really tell the difference at all. From there, when pressed about what the difference is..... few can articulate it if they have not already been told. And, even the ones who can are generally split on the preference.

Simply put, I really think about the only thing people can regularly tell the difference between is "good beer" vs. "bad beer" and also "styles I like" vs. "styles I don't like."

So, if you get a beer that is basically well brewed...... people are going to like it if it is a style they like and it is served to them within an experience they enjoy (atmosphere, good friends, etc.)

99% of beer drinkers are not sifting through a beer perceiving "levels" of an off flavor in the low to moderate range.

The other thing I noticed when I have done my own sampling is that palette fatigue (especially with hoppy beers) is very, very quick to make an impact. I feel like I can quickly detect some things upon the first or second drinks ...... but, take a couple sips of 2-3 different beers and they just all blend together in a hurry. Especially when you are tasting the same beer with one differing variable....

I actually am pretty decent at tasting and judging beers. I have entered a lot of beer in comps, I routinely judge my own beers and compare to my comp score sheets, I practice scoring commercial examples vs. BJCP scoring templates from Gordon Strong, I passed the BJCP tasting exam easily on my first attempt..... So, I am probably more familiar than an average person with flavors and impacts of brewing processes. Even with a decent amount of experience..... it is REALLY hard to drink repeated samples of very similar beers and consistently pick out differences. It is almost impossible to do it consistently if you don't even know what differences you are looking for. Unless it is a glaring fault, it is tough to do.

Nice write up... the only caveat I would suggest is that, it would depend on how analytical you are as a person. I know a couple of guys, who when they brew a beer, they have 2-3 small glasses and all they're doing is looking for issues. (DMS/diacetyl etc.) they really evaluate their beers to try and improve on it, and sometimes it creeps into when they go to friends places..... lol
 
The recent tangents are related to the main topic, brewing NE pale/IPAS
We are discussing the validity of recent Brulopher xbmts. Oxygen xbmt specifically. Which has led to a small tangent about how easily it is, or not, detecting off flavors.

For example what are the "just noticeable difference" or flavor thresholds of oxidation in our NE ipas. Collectively we agree that being OCD about oxygen free fermentations and keg transfers are critical. However the recent xbmt seems to dispute the criticality of this.

After some digging however, it seems like marshals control process would still pick up some oxygen, so at best it is some oxidation vs a lot more...
 
LILpv26.jpg


1469 NEIPA via my Intertap stout spout. Super fruity! Tastes like peach juice
 
Recommend?

Yeah it's different from what I'm used to but it's still really good. I don't know if it's the yeast, malt, or maybe Citra hops, but there's a sweetness in the finish that's almost drying but a tad cloying at the same time. It's either Citra hops being sweet because it's almost peachy, or if I didn't bitter enough to balance it, if it's CMC palt malt that's being sweet, or the yeast playing up the malt. That's just me being nitpicky though. Overall it's really good. Super juicy, smooth, big mouthfeel and body. Getting a lot of Citra character from it. Just need to tweak a few things (maybe used pils malt instead of pale). Reminds me a bit of Forest & Main's IPAs (especially through the stout spout). 1318 just reminds me of TH's IPAs, so it's a refreshing change for me.

2oz each Citra, Mosaic and Galaxy dry hop. Citra and Mosaic in boil. 80% CMC pale, 10% flaked oats, 10% oat malt. 1.055.
 
Yeah it's different from what I'm used to but it's still really good. I don't know if it's the yeast, malt, or maybe Citra hops, but there's a sweetness in the finish that's almost drying but a tad cloying at the same time. It's either Citra hops being sweet because it's almost peachy, or if I didn't bitter enough to balance it, if it's CMC palt malt that's being sweet, or the yeast playing up the malt. That's just me being nitpicky though. Overall it's really good. Super juicy, smooth, big mouthfeel and body. Getting a lot of Citra character from it. Just need to tweak a few things (maybe used pils malt instead of pale). Reminds me a bit of Forest & Main's IPAs (especially through the stout spout). 1318 just reminds me of TH's IPAs, so it's a refreshing change for me.

2oz each Citra, Mosaic and Galaxy dry hop. Citra and Mosaic in boil. 80% CMC pale, 10% flaked oats, 10% oat malt. 1.055.

Very nice..Looks good. Just curious but why did you pour it through a stout tap? When you mention 1318 and reference TH, are you referring to tree house or tired hands? Thanks for sharing. I hope to brew this really soon.
 
Yeah it's different from what I'm used to but it's still really good. I don't know if it's the yeast, malt, or maybe Citra hops, but there's a sweetness in the finish that's almost drying but a tad cloying at the same time. It's either Citra hops being sweet because it's almost peachy, or if I didn't bitter enough to balance it, if it's CMC palt malt that's being sweet, or the yeast playing up the malt. That's just me being nitpicky though. Overall it's really good. Super juicy, smooth, big mouthfeel and body. Getting a lot of Citra character from it. Just need to tweak a few things (maybe used pils malt instead of pale). Reminds me a bit of Forest & Main's IPAs (especially through the stout spout). 1318 just reminds me of TH's IPAs, so it's a refreshing change for me.

2oz each Citra, Mosaic and Galaxy dry hop. Citra and Mosaic in boil. 80% CMC pale, 10% flaked oats, 10% oat malt. 1.055.


Oils good to me.
What were your boil additions and when?
This is my fave prigs British yeast for dark ales
 
Yeah it's different from what I'm used to but it's still really good. I don't know if it's the yeast, malt, or maybe Citra hops, but there's a sweetness in the finish that's almost drying but a tad cloying at the same time. It's either Citra hops being sweet because it's almost peachy, or if I didn't bitter enough to balance it, if it's CMC palt malt that's being sweet, or the yeast playing up the malt. That's just me being nitpicky though. Overall it's really good. Super juicy, smooth, big mouthfeel and body. Getting a lot of Citra character from it. Just need to tweak a few things (maybe used pils malt instead of pale). Reminds me a bit of Forest & Main's IPAs (especially through the stout spout). 1318 just reminds me of TH's IPAs, so it's a refreshing change for me.

2oz each Citra, Mosaic and Galaxy dry hop. Citra and Mosaic in boil. 80% CMC pale, 10% flaked oats, 10% oat malt. 1.055.

Interesting that you find it sweet. Every time I use Citra I get the same thing. A strange peach/mango/melon type of aroma/flavor that I don't really want in the finished beer. I've used similar grain bills and yeast with other hops and it's not there.

I just did an IPA with 2oz of Mosaic along with 1oz of Citra and 1oz of Columbus in the dry hop. That sweetness is there...not as if it were an all Citra beer but it's there. Seems to be a strong hop in regards to this quality.
 
interesting. i've found citra to be more drying in dryhop. but, i use at least 1 oz/gal usually

I do 2.5 gallon batches and typically use at least 3 oz of dry hops for a pale ale or IPA...two 1.5oz additions...so a little more than an oz per gallon.

Maybe it's my process? I only do bittering and then whirlpool hops during the brew. I dry hop first while fermentation is going and then when it's over. Similar grainbills and yeast as OP recipe.

Just did an Amarillo single hop pale ale and the flavor was very dry and pleasant....

I also wouldn't say the Citra pale ales are bad...I just prefer other beers more. I've also perceived this sweetness in a friends beer made with all Citra.

Sorry for the tangent.
 
I do 2.5 gallon batches and typically use at least 3 oz of dry hops for a pale ale or IPA...two 1.5oz additions...so a little more than an oz per gallon.

Maybe it's my process? I only do bittering and then whirlpool hops during the brew. I dry hop first while fermentation is going and then when it's over. Similar grainbills and yeast as OP recipe.

Just did an Amarillo single hop pale ale and the flavor was very dry and pleasant....

I also wouldn't say the Citra pale ales are bad...I just prefer other beers more. I've also perceived this sweetness in a friends beer made with all Citra.

Sorry for the tangent.

One thing you might want to try is adding more of your "sweet" hops as a dry hop rather than kettle hop. I think I've found that dry hops tend to give a dryer more tannic quality than kettle hops, which can come across as rounder, smoother and "sweeter." In fact, I only use dry hops, not flavor kettle hops. HOwever, some of my IPAs are pretty dry, so I am thinking about going back to using some hopstand hops so that they don't get so dry tasting but still have as much hop flavor as possible.
 
LILpv26.jpg


1469 NEIPA via my Intertap stout spout. Super fruity! Tastes like peach juice

Nice head! A stout faucet for these beers is a really interesting idea. You can get really nice head and creaminess without the carbonic bite. Great idea! Maybe I need to get a stout faucet!
 
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