New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

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DuncB

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@Noob_Brewer
I have asked about this a few times having seen it recommended. It does seem to divide opinion from good idea to terrible. I again would like to see the science and try it perhaps as a bottle dosing in the first instance then I can compare dosed and undosed.
Seems to make sense to me and the wine industry use it a lot but that didn't seem a defense according to some of the replies I had.
I'd just like to know what ppm per litre to try, especially as I am counter pressure filling my bottles so no yeast to munch any oxygen ingress.
I also don't maintain the cold chain with the bottle so would see accelerated aging in comparison to keg. Maybe worth a new thread?
Some people are sensitive to sulphites but my consumers could be all warned if needed. I think that all beer is changing in the keg with time and not sure anything is going to stop that " development " but if there was something to decelerate deterioration of highly sensitive beers I'd give it a go.
 

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@Noob_Brewer
I have asked about this a few times having seen it recommended. It does seem to divide opinion from good idea to terrible. I again would like to see the science and try it perhaps as a bottle dosing in the first instance then I can compare dosed and undosed.
Seems to make sense to me and the wine industry use it a lot but that didn't seem a defense according to some of the replies I had.
I'd just like to know what ppm per litre to try, especially as I am counter pressure filling my bottles so no yeast to munch any oxygen ingress.
I also don't maintain the cold chain with the bottle so would see accelerated aging in comparison to keg. Maybe worth a new thread?
Some people are sensitive to sulphites but my consumers could be all warned if needed. I think that all beer is changing in the keg with time and not sure anything is going to stop that " development " but if there was something to decelerate deterioration of highly sensitive beers I'd give it a go.
I agree with this overall. I'm always up for trying new things and have read extensively about LODO in general which starts with the hot side procedures too. My feelings are that without a DO meter ($$$) on hand, one would not know how much to dose the beer with these scavengers (SMB) without getting the sulfur bombs. So relying on a generic ppm might be dangerous anyways because it would seem to be very user process dependent. It also seems a little bit counterintuitive to me to add SMB during active fermentation because then the yeast and SMB would actually compete for the available oxygen which could lead to under attenuation (if SMB "wins") or a fart bomb (if the yeast win the oxygen competition). So my original question remains: if adding SMB or absorbic acid on the cold side only, Im curious as to users opinions if they think it really extends the shelf life of the beers beyond 2-3 months. I know peeps who embrace the entire LODO techniques (hot side and cold side best practices) report extended shelf life but not sure if just adding the SMB, AA on the cold side only would add benefit. Lots to think about and lots to learn. 🤔

EDIT: would ideally love to borrow a DO Meter from someone around me simply to evaluate the DO going into the fermenter, DO at hydrometer sampling after fermentation complete, and DO at kegging to get an idea on how much DO is added on my existing cold sides processes. That information would be super helpful. Im a data geek anyways lol.
 
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DuncB

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Yes @Noob_Brewer
I'd only be interested in it's application at the kegging and bottling phase. There's not much else I can do after oxygenating the wort to reduce Oxygen levels I think it's a fairly tight process that I've got.
I just need some ball park info to give it a whirl. Gash on Home Brew Network mentions 3 grams Sod Met in the keg water and then pumps it out with CO2 and says the residual water left behind below the dip tube has enough Sod Met to work it's magic. But it seems more makes me feel good rather than knowing it.
 

Dgallo

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OK Im curious about these SMB and ascorbic acid additions for the cold side. Ive noted, after brewing for a little over a year, that my IPAs generally last 1-3 months in the keg. They peak at around 10-21 days on average, depending on ABV it seems, and then maintain very well until around the 2 month mark. After 2 months, I generally start noticing aroma fading but the color and flavor are still solid. Then closer toward the 2.5-3month mark I notice the flavor not as bright, but again still pretty good. So Im pretty happy with the shelf life of my kegged IPAs, but I know that oxidation at any rate does occur even with best practices in minimizing O2 ingress. So can anyone here comment on whether these SMB and ascorbic acid contributions on the cold side actually extend the shelf life and/or allow for the "peak" flavors or aromas to last longer than 2 months? Again, after 2 months is when I definitely notice some changes to start, but even at 3 months the beers are still pretty good, not blatantly oxidized/brown, but clearly past their peak. If there are any links to this cold side practice, Id love to read them. Might have to revisit Jannish's book if theres anything in that book on this topic.
What gas/liquid draft lines do you use?
 

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What gas/liquid draft lines do you use?
EVA Barrier 4mm for liquid, and the red dual layer hose (5/16 ID, 9/16 OD) for gas. When I set up my keezer, I bought the red hose for gas first, but at some point might switch that over to EVA barrier as well. EVA Barrier is cheap and very effective IMO. Due to the reduced ID compared to 3/16", your lines don't need to be super long either. Last I looked you can get 39ft of the EVA barrier for about $17. Plenty for a 6 tap keezer (~5-6ft per keg).
 
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If your IPAs have a solid shelf life out 2 months I wouldn’t worry about adding antioxidants. My kegs are done at about 1.5 months. I only started using antioxidants after a split batch ended up with an oxidized ipa out of the gate in one of the kegs that I couldn’t explain so I was looking for cheap insurance that didn’t screw up the flavor/aroma but protected the beer’s stability.
 

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I've noticed with my last few batches of coldish-dry-hopped IPAs that they start out very early being a little, maybe grassy or raw, but in a kind of interesting way and then they slowly morph into something very round and delicious and more fruity around day 6-12 or so. interesting. i don't remember that happening when i did warmer dry hops.
 

TBA

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any idea of the lasting effects from SMB and ascorbic acid? I have an SS Brew Bucket and open the lid to toss in the dry hops. I flood with CO2. Dry hop starts at 55 degrees then next day drop to 33 for 2 days. If I also added the SMB/Ascorbic acid at dry hop time would it still give some O2 protection at transfer 3 days later? I do my best at closed transfer but it is never perfect.
 
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If your IPAs are solid through 2 months that reflects industry standard and I would not bother adding antioxidants. I almost always avoid ipa cans older than 2 months but I’ve had really good Heady Topper and Monkish cans that were at 3 months that probably dropped off some from their peak hop freshness.
I only add them as cheap insurance because I had a split batch keg get oxidized out of the gate using the same protocols and I still have no idea what happened.
 
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If your protocol is consistent, adding the antioxidants 3 days earlier should not change the result, you’ll just have more O2 pulled out at that DH step vs waiting til packaging. Whatever unreacted antioxidants you have will stay in solution until your next step of O2 exposure. Depending on how much O2 you inadvertently add and how much antioxidants you add you’ll most likely reach an equilibrium in solution of antioxidants that have scavenged O2 and those still in solution ready to react.
 

gencinjay

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I tried some new hops in my last batch. All proprietary Michigan hops; 3oz Bergamot, 2oz Michigan Copper and 1oz Paradigm in the whirlpool and dry hop. It still needs a day or two, but so far my impressions are very good.
 

R.A.I.D

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any idea of the lasting effects from SMB and ascorbic acid? (...) If I also added the SMB/Ascorbic acid at dry hop time would it still give some O2 protection at transfer 3 days later?
Once added, it will stay in the beer and be ready to bind to any oxygen. If your beer is not exposed to oxygen for the first 3 days, then it will still protect your beer when you transfer at day 3. I would just stick with AA alone. It seems like SMB easily can introduce an undesired aroma when added post fermentation.

So my original question remains: if adding SMB or absorbic acid on the cold side only, Im curious as to users opinions if they think it really extends the shelf life of the beers beyond 2-3 months.
It will protect your beer from oxidization, but the hop aroma will still fade over time.

Key findings:
Based on his experiment Lupulin (I assume it is similar to Cryo) is best used in dry hop compared to hot side.
Breweries are mixing Lupulin and pellets for a intense yet round experience:
"Hops and Grain have settled in using about 40% of the total dry hop charge in lupulin powder for both Citra and Mosaic and slightly more when using Simcoe to get their desired aroma intensity. Pinthouse Pizza has experimented with Simcoe, Mosaic, and Citra so far and said when using about half the dry hop amount in lupulin powder compared to pellet."
 

Noob_Brewer

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FYI - for those of you interested, YVH has Nectaron in stock now. Typically, Ive been checking but lost track this week and 2oz packs already not available, but 8oz packs are. Love this hop.
 

popquizkid

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Once added, it will stay in the beer and be ready to bind to any oxygen. If your beer is not exposed to oxygen for the first 3 days, then it will still protect your beer when you transfer at day 3. I would just stick with AA alone. It seems like SMB easily can introduce an undesired aroma when added post fermentation.
My understanding is that by just adding AA alone you run the risk of certain byproducts oxidizing your beer. That is why AA and SMB are typically used together.


I do agree that adding SMB post fermentation you are running the risk of sulfur aromas if the SMB does not all get "used up". That is why when I tried it I used very small quantities.
 
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Thanks on the Nectaron intel. I immediately ordered a pound because it’s been unobtanium for a while. I’ve heard really good things and can’t ant wait to pair it with Nelson.
I also came across using SMB/AA together because they interact synergistically as antioxidants and that using too much AA alone can actually lead to superoxygen radicals that can oxidize your beer.
 
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I only use 0.2g of SMB in my kegs, which is a tiny amount. The cider I’m finishing had juice that was not acidic enough so the cider reference book called for 100ppm SMB to add shelf stability to the cider. I will only be adding 50ppm which will still be 1.5g/4.75G which seems like a ton! I’m dry hopping as well which should also retard bacterial growth so I feel ok undershooting the SMB recommended amount.
 

Noob_Brewer

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Thanks on the Nectaron intel. I immediately ordered a pound because it’s been unobtanium for a while. I’ve heard really good things and can’t ant wait to pair it with Nelson.
I also came across using SMB/AA together because they interact synergistically as antioxidants and that using too much AA alone can actually lead to superoxygen radicals that can oxidize your beer.
Good call on getting the nectaron. I just checked YVH and its sold out already. My first brew with it I went with moutere/nectaron combo (A24 yeast, Imperial dry hop) and it was a tropical peach bomb. Second time around (same yeast) I went with moutere Idaho 7 and nectraon - it wasn't the same peach bomb and had more earthy type vibe with nice NZ diesel which I like. I will say that nectaron isn't as potent as nelson in terms of the NZ diesel type vibe but it is present for sure. I like it a lot. Never paired it with Nelson though but I imagine if you want to pull the nectaron vibe out of it, I would have higher ratio favoring nectaron relative to nelson as nelson (2020 crop) is damn potent. But if you love the NZ type varieties but want more fruity/peach vibes, nectaron will be great for ya! I ordered a pound and a half earlier today and have the shipping info already sent. Might try a single hop pale ale with it to confirm/refute what I think its giving me. Then might revisit my moutere/nectaron recipe and add citra to further push the citrus/tropical vibe that I love it for.
 
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I’m doing a Kiwi series of IPAs this summer. First up is a split batch Imperial Dry Hop yeast vs Barbarian using Riwaka, Motueka, Rakau and in the other Waimea, Taiheke, Wakatu.
I’ve only used Nelson before and love it. I’m eager to try different NZ hop combos since most IPAs overuse Mosaic, Citra, Galaxy, etc. I usually WP with Idaho 7 since it has the highest % of survivables that persist into the fermenter according* to Yakima Chief Hops.
After ordering Nectaron I’m tempted to pair it with Nelson!
The only thing that concerns me is that for the past year I’ve been using 50/50 cryo/T90 and it really smoothened out the finish on my IPAs. Unfortunately cryo is not an option w NZ hops. I guess I’ll see how this batch goes and add a cryo blend next time around if the finish isn’t as smooth as I want it.
Here’s a prelim shot after transferring to a keg of my hard cider DDH with Simcoe cryo and Wai Iti hops and fermented with champagne yeast. I usually use a Belgian saison yeast but wanted to give this a try.
 

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midegrou

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I've only had this once with LA3 and trying to replicate it but have no idea how. What yeast did you use, which nutrition and what temps?
Sorry I missed this! Embarrassingly, I think I might have a bit of a diacetyl issue as the "melon" has evolved very strongly toward "butterscotch" after a few weeks in the keg. I think this mistake is likely a product of my still largely unrefined palate. :)

I actually used A38 in this batch (first time ever) and it absolutely blasted through over a couple of days. The FG was stable for 2-3 days by day 6 so I transferred to the DH keg (I do one gallon batches, so I thought this might be a reasonable timeline). In retrospect, I perhaps should have done a rest and given it more time - I was just super eager to try it out.
 
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What temp do you have your DH keg before going into your keezer/kegerator?
You might have experienced some hop creep from the hop enzymes creating more fermentable sugars for the yeast, kicking off additional Fermentation and thus more diacetyl.
If you’re dry hopping you either need to make sure you have enough time for a diacetyl rest if you’re at ferm temps or do a soft crash to below your yeast’s preferred temp range. For ale yeasts I usually soft crash at 54-56F for 24hr for my DDH at the end of fermentation and then cold crash at 32F for a week. My last DH is in the keg where I bring the temp up to 54-56F for 24hrs and then it goes into the keezer to carb.
 

Noob_Brewer

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Sorry I missed this! Embarrassingly, I think I might have a bit of a diacetyl issue as the "melon" has evolved very strongly toward "butterscotch" after a few weeks in the keg. I think this mistake is likely a product of my still largely unrefined palate. :)

I actually used A38 in this batch (first time ever) and it absolutely blasted through over a couple of days. The FG was stable for 2-3 days by day 6 so I transferred to the DH keg (I do one gallon batches, so I thought this might be a reasonable timeline). In retrospect, I perhaps should have done a rest and given it more time - I was just super eager to try it out.
Being a new home brewer for just over a year (January 2020) myself, Ive always been more conservative prior to soft crashing before DHing. I typically take my hydro reading at about 7days despite most visual activity showing me its done at about 5-6days (depending on yeast). I like to wait an additional day after Ive seen no visual sign of fermentation prior to hydrometer sample. Then I wait (at about 71-72 degrees) until day 9-10 (depending on my work/personal schedule really) typically before soft crashing to 50 for 36hrs and then I bounce it back up to 58-60 for DHing. I am typically kegging at 14 +/- 1-2 days on average with these NEIPAs (A24 yeast is my favorite thus far). I am uber paranoid that its "not" finished in the primary fermentation so thats why I wait a little longer and don't push it time wise. So IMHO, no need to rush this since you've already invested a lot of time and $$ on the initial brew day. Ive now brewed about 36 beers since I started and I can not gauge by my hydrometer sample gravity and taste if I want to adjust the timeline overall. Like you, my palate is still "in training" though.
 

R.A.I.D

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This is the procedure for dry hopping at Sapwood:

Sapwood’s Burping Procedure (20 Barrel Fermenters):
Columbia, MD
• One to 2 days before dry hopping, drop the tank to 56°F
(13°C), harvest the yeast, and drop the remaining yeast.
• Keeping the tank at 56°F (13°C), dry hop with ~4.4 pounds
per barrel for most IPAs and DIPAs through the dry hop
doser (more on this setup below), and give the hops 4–8 h
to saturate in the beer.
• After 4–8 h of dry hop contact time, we burp through the
bottom of the cone at 30 PSI for approximately 1 min
(purging the burp setup with CO2 prior to opening the
valve to the tank). Generally, the head pressure is around
10 PSI at this point and slowly creeps up to 15 PSI with
each consecutive burp.
• Once each day for 3 days, we burp the tank again from
the bottom of the tank at 30 PSI for approximately 1 min
or until the tank gets back up to 15 PSI.
• After 3 days of dry hopping, we crash the tank 5°F per day
and drop hops from the bottom of the cone until reaching
35°F (1.6°C).
• If we are dry hopping in multiple stages, after the first
3 days of dry hopping and burps we will drop the tank to
remove as much of the first dose as possible and then re-
peat our dry hop procedure before moving to the cold-
crashing stage.
He also writes:
Size matters when it comes to the size of the tank and extrac-
tion; the studies mentioned above were done in small beer-like
solutions that experienced fast dry hop extraction times. It is
likely that the larger the vessel, the slower the extraction, as one
expert suggests that it might take 3–5 days to get extraction on a
500 barrel tank and just a day on the homebrew scale (4). Dry
hopping is entirely dependent on local diffusion speeds. Anything
that speeds up diffusion (stirring, temperature, etc.) will speed up
extraction rates, and all those things are generally slower as you
scale up tank size. There will be less liquid in direct contact with
hop material, and it is harder to move that liquid around.
At Sapwood they use 20 barrel/2400 L fermenter. So at homebrew scale we might get similar results faster if we shake the dry hop container once a day.

So we might end up with 56F/13C in 1-3 days.
 

beervoid

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In my experience the colder and shorter dryhopping only works with good quality hops.
I've had good to poor results depending on hop quality. Dry hopping warmer will extract more from lesser quality hops.
 

midegrou

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What temp do you have your DH keg before going into your keezer/kegerator?
You might have experienced some hop creep from the hop enzymes creating more fermentable sugars for the yeast, kicking off additional Fermentation and thus more diacetyl.
If you’re dry hopping you either need to make sure you have enough time for a diacetyl rest if you’re at ferm temps or do a soft crash to below your yeast’s preferred temp range. For ale yeasts I usually soft crash at 54-56F for 24hr for my DDH at the end of fermentation and then cold crash at 32F for a week. My last DH is in the keg where I bring the temp up to 54-56F for 24hrs and then it goes into the keezer to carb.
I add about 8 psi and then crash to 50F for about 24 hours before transferring to the DH keg. I then DH at 50F (adding about 4 psi) for 24-48 hours.

It's worked pretty well for me at rates of 3oz/gallon...until these past few batches. I think I probably just need to let it sit at terminal an additional few days.

In general, I've found these one-gallon batches are very finicky and small "mistakes" can dramatically affect the end product. One example is ensuring that I adjust my water profile based on the batch size...but also considering pH effects based on the mash volume (since my mash water is nearly 3X my batch size). Took a little while to get that dialed in.
 
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@HopsAreGood I checked my gravity on the batch I fermented with a38 and us05 7 days and down to 1.016 from 1.070 and appears to be done, usually I overbuild my starters and save some for next time but I wasnt able to do that on this batch. I have a stainless conical and was curious if I could harvest this yeast or if I should not being that it is 2 strains and just start with at fresh pack of each for next brew.
 

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@HopsAreGood I checked my gravity on the batch I fermented with a38 and us05 7 days and down to 1.016 from 1.070 and appears to be done, usually I overbuild my starters and save some for next time but I wasnt able to do that on this batch. I have a stainless conical and was curious if I could harvest this yeast or if I should not being that it is 2 strains and just start with at fresh pack of each for next brew.
You definitely could harvest it but because it is a blend one of them will become quite dominant over time. I honestly don’t have a lot of experience harvesting yeast, but I’m sure many of the other people on here do. Whenever I blend or mix different yeasts it’s just a one and done thing.
 

R.A.I.D

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Any suggestions for changes to this grain bill (or other ideas) that will make my neipa just a bit more dry while still using just S-33?

Maris Otter 68%
Wheat malt 14%
Chit malt 4%
Oat malt 4%
Honig malt 4%
Sugar 7%

S-33 has low attenuation. Like 68 pct. But I managed to get from 1077 oc to 1019 oc by mashing low at 144F/62C and adding 7 pct table sugar to the grain bill.
I would like to hit 1013 oc.

S-33 leaves behind more glucose/maltose and maltotriose than say S-04. But consumes more tetraode and dextrin.
 
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Dgallo

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Any suggestions for changes to this grain bill (or other ideas) that will make my neipa just a bit more dry while still using just S-33?

Maris Otter 68%
Wheat malt 14%
Chit malt 4%
Oat malt 4%
Honig malt 4%
Sugar 7%

S-33 has low attenuation. Like 68 pct. But I managed to get from 1077 oc to 1019 oc by mashing low at 144F/62C and adding 7 pct table sugar to the grain bill.
I would like to hit 1013 oc.
I’d personally would either use an even split with either chit/oats or chit/wheat. That way you’ll get a feel for what chit brings to the table.

I also would remove the dextrose and make up for it with base malt. Unless it’s a tipa, it seems counter productive for the body
 

Noob_Brewer

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Any suggestions for changes to this grain bill (or other ideas) that will make my neipa just a bit more dry while still using just S-33?

Maris Otter 68%
Wheat malt 14%
Chit malt 4%
Oat malt 4%
Honig malt 4%
Sugar 7%

S-33 has low attenuation. Like 68 pct. But I managed to get from 1077 oc to 1019 oc by mashing low at 144F/62C and adding 7 pct table sugar to the grain bill.
I would like to hit 1013 oc.

S-33 leaves behind more glucose/maltose and maltotriose than say S-04. But consumes more tetraode and dextrin.
Just an idea, as I know you want to just use S-33, but have you considered pitching a a small amount of a clean yeast like S-05 with this to help with attenuation? Never used S-33 nor have I mixed dry yeasts before either. Just a thought.
 

HopsAreGood

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Just an idea, as I know you want to just use S-33, but have you considered pitching a a small amount of a clean yeast like S-05 with this to help with attenuation? Never used S-33 nor have I mixed dry yeasts before either. Just a thought.
This is definitely a good option. Try something like 80/20 or whatever you think will work best. You should be able to keep most of the S-33 character but benefit from the additional attenuation from the US-05. At the very least you’ll have a fun experiment.
 
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Since we’re talking NEIPA I just brewed one Sunday. For a 5G batch I used 6oz ID7 for flame out/whirlpool. I came across some Nectaron hops that I want to pair with Nelson for the dry hops. I might go with some Vic Secret as well. Anyone try the Nectaron hops yet? I’ve read that Nelson can overpower it so I’m going to use a higher % Nectaron for the DH.
 

Noob_Brewer

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Since we’re talking NEIPA I just brewed one Sunday. For a 5G batch I used 6oz ID7 for flame out/whirlpool. I came across some Nectaron hops that I want to pair with Nelson for the dry hops. I might go with some Vic Secret as well. Anyone try the Nectaron hops yet? I’ve read that Nelson can overpower it so I’m going to use a higher % Nectaron for the DH.
Depending on the year of I7, you should get a nice orange forward beer pre-dryhop as is my experience with I7. I7 CAN bring some black tea/earthy qualities too IMO. Nelson will DEFINITELY overpower nectaron IMHO, so I would go 2 or 3:1 Nectaron:Nelson. Ive brewed twice with nectaron, the first was moutere/nectaron combo all the way through with emphasis on moutere on hot side and nectaron on cold side (this was a tropical bomb with nice/restrained NZ diesel/spice. then I did a moutere/I7/Nectaron combo. This had more earthy and NZ diesel than I remember the first having, I7 was ONLY used in the WP on this one. So if you only used I7 in the WP and are planning on Nectaron/Nelson in the DH, it will definitely have a NZ diesel presence. Personally, if you are wanting to go this route, I would add some citra to the DH as well to help brighten it up and help add/emphasize the peach/tropicalness that nectaron brings and the passionfruit that nelson can bring to the table so that the NZ diesel/spice doesn't steal the show. Don't know what you are going for though. If you have nectaron and nelson as 2020, Nelson is pretty damn potent. So perhaps 2.5:1:1 of nectaron, citra, nelson ratios for DH might strike a nice balance and have a cool tropical/peach vibe with the NZ diesel that some love and some hate lol. Keep us posted!

EDIT: I personally LOVE nectaron as it seems to strike a nice balance between tropical/peach fruitiness with a restrained NZ diesel (but its definitely present). Its not as potent in the NZ diesel category as Nelson which is why I was thinking Citra would help to pull the fruitiness of these two NZ hops out more.
 
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R.A.I.D

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Just an idea, as I know you want to just use S-33, but have you considered pitching a a small amount of a clean yeast like S-05 with this to help with attenuation?
I am trying to maximize the hop aroma. I prefer S-33 because it leaves intense hop aroma behind in the beer.

I have tried mixing S-33 with S-04 to get both aroma and attenuation (1.5pkg:0.5pkg). But I feel like S-04 binds to the hop aroma that S-33 leaves behind. So I will go back to just S-33 again.

I prefer wheat malt to oat in my neipa. One grain bill could be a mix of just pale and wheat. Any ratio between 20 and 50 % wheat.
50-80% pale malt
20-50% wheat malt

But I don't know if that would ferment out more than the other one:
Maris Otter 68%
Wheat malt 14%
Chit malt 4%
Oat malt 4%
Honig malt 4%
Sugar 7%
 

Frieds

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I’d personally would either use an even split with either chit/oats or chit/wheat. That way you’ll get a feel for what chit brings to the table.

I also would remove the dextrose and make up for it with base malt. Unless it’s a tipa, it seems counter productive for the body
I Remember having a conversation with you a few months back where you suggested that DME could replace dextrose and still add some body whilst also adding abv. What’s the ball park figure in regards to the percentage of DME In the grist if you were trying to get into TIPA territory?
 
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