North Country Malt Group to stop selling to homebrewers

[Clayton]

No homebrew store can compete when you can purchase it for less than a homebrew store can. No one is gettting rich running a homebrew store. Then the customers don't want to pay for milling the grain. It costs about 25cents per pound to mill the grain. I am sure that you can buy a bag of 2 row for a lot less than $60.

Forrest

how can the homebrew stores not buy it for the same price , you can buy from them too and get even better priceing they limet home brewers to the first tir discount, shops get the 2k and up discounts

when i placed an order from Mid CM it was 95$ shipping per pallet, each pallet is up to 42 bags, so thats $2.26 per bag shipped to your door

home brewstore could easly buy 42 bag of 2row @ 25.36 a bag + 2.26 shipping for 27.62 to your door, if you sold these even for 40 you would make 12.38 per bag thats like 40% markup and yet at my lhbs there cheepest bag of 2row is 55buck.!. mabey they could sale more and warrent the bulk order if they were saleing it for 38~40 and only makeing 33% on it.

 

[Bobby_M]

I would probably stop organizing bulk pallet buys if my LHBS would live with a $10 profit per sack. Even then I'm dumping $8 or so of gas money when the pallets just come right to me.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

how can the homebrew stores not buy it for the same price , you can buy from them too and get even better priceing they limet home brewers to the first tir discount, shops get the 2k and up discounts

when i placed an order from Mid CM it was 95$ shipping per pallet, each pallet is up to 42 bags, so thats $2.26 per bag shipped to your door

home brewstore could easly buy 42 bag of 2row @ 25.36 a bag + 2.26 shipping for 27.62 to your door, if you sold these even for 40 you would make 12.38 per bag thats like 40% markup and yet at my lhbs there cheepest bag of 2row is 55buck.!. mabey they could sale more and warrent the bulk order if they were saleing it for 38~40 and only makeing 33% on it.

First off, customers really don't want the Canadian 2-row. I tried carrying it and I received complaints from customers and employees.

Country malt group sell the grain to you at virtually the same price as they do to me. I costs me 25 cents per pound to mill the grain. You don't charge yourself that. 25 cents per minute for the whole transaction. You don't charge yourself that.

I will use your example, so the bag costs me $25.36 + 2.26 shipping + $1.25 to recieve it + (if it takes 20 minutes from when you walk in to when you leave because you want the 50lb milled) + $5.00 = Now my cost is $33.87 and I sell it in store for $39.99 to cover the rent and utilites and advertising. The rent is 35 cents a minute of course that is divided among several customers that minute.

The 25 cents per minute covers the employees wage, comission, 401k matching, paid vacation, my half of the federal income tax, FICA, and medicaid. It doesn't include any profit.

I am not complaining. It is frustrating when people don't realize all of the costs involved and they think a store is gouging.

Forrest

 

[pickles]

$40 is reasonable for a bag of 2-row but $60 isn't. I think thats where the beef lies.

 

[Clayton]

if you say so , on avage hafe our bulk buys are canada 2row , why is mid county saleing 1000s of tons of it, if noone wants it? are you saleing 1000s of tons of grain?
who buys a 55lbs sack of pre milled grain ? dont do it, a whole bag is just that a whole unopened bag,
if you have to open the bag to dump it out and mill it and them put it back in the bag, it should go to the ala carte priceing,
or add a bulk milling fee for a whole bag, mid county does.

all that other suff is operating cost and are not added to the wholesale price before markup in "most" retail shops including the one i own.
do you make 100% mark up on other items, like your pumps yeast or hops? I dought it so why the back lash for the same deal on whole unopened sacks of grain?

i am just looking to save some money in this economy ,to me if you buy a 42 bag pallet of CAN 2row, move the whole palet off the truck with a lift or palet jack off to the corner and then just sale whole unopend bags for around $40 i dont see how you cant make some money, ruffly 42*12=540 per pallet and make some cheepasses happy to boot

 

[Germelli1]

if you say so , on avage hafe our bulk buys are canada 2row , why is mid county saleing 1000s of tons of it, if noone wants it? are you saleing 1000s of tons of grain?
who buys a 55lbs sack of pre milled grain ? dont do it, a whole bag is just that a whole unopened bag,
if you have to open the bag to dump it out and mill it and them put it back in the bag, it should go to the ala carte priceing,
or add a bulk milling fee for a whole bag, mid county does.

all that other suff is operating cost and are not added to the wholesale price before markup in "most" retail shops including the one i own.
do you make 100% mark up on other items, like your pumps yeast or hops? I dought it so why the back lash for the same deal on whole unopened sacks of grain?

i am just looking to save some money in this economy ,to me if you buy a 42 bag pallet of CAN 2row, move the whole palet off the truck with a lift or palet jack off to the corner and then just sale whole unopend bags for around $40 i dont see how you cant make some money, ruffly 42*12=540 per pallet and make some cheepasses happy to boot

I agree with some of the points you made, even if I had to read it 5 times to decipher it haha.

What about extract? They could get me extract for $2.38/# which is about 15% less than ANY other vendor.

 

[bkov]

curious how do you figure 25cents a pound to crush grain? how much extra time does it take an employee to pick out, weigh, bag,etc. an recipe of non-milled verus milled? from a youtube video ive seen of your machine/setup, seems like it adds less than a minute to crush the grains after weighing and everything

 

[Austinhomebrew]

It costs me 25 cents a minute for an employee to help a customer. (just to pay for the employee)

Before this gets crazy, my point is that people that say stores are gouging rarely are. There are some stores that do. $60 for a bag of 2-row is a bit much.

People see the cost and they do not realize all of the costs involved in selling some grain to them.

Forrest

The prices you were getting from Country malt group whether it was grain or extract were the same as homebrew stores received. If an employee looked in the general direction of the grain, it cost me more than it cost you.

 

[bkov]

$15 an hour?

not to get to off topic, but arent there places available cheaper than NCM available to homebrew stores. ithink what i a lot people were getting at is the huge price difference between NCM and other stores

 

[northernlad]

What none of you seem to understand is what it costs to run a brick and mortar store.
You all want to pay the price the NCM charges, but their profit is already built into that. These are the same costs that Forrest and everyone else has to deal with.
If you ran a business you would understand. You don't know what a company pays for their product so you don't know whether they are living with a 25% or a 100% markup. It costs money to pay a guy to get his balls busted because somebody is selling something online for a $.01 cheaper.
None of the bulk orders listed in this thread appear as the tiniest bump in what NCM produces and distributes. They don't want to send one bag to some dude trying to save $3 on his batch of beer. It is WAY more important that they protect their real customers and in doing so not waste a warehouse guys's time.
I know some people aren't lucky enough to live anywhere near an LHBS store let alone one whose prices match or beat online, but it is nice to throw the local guy some cash once in a while.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

$15 an hour?

not to get to off topic, but arent there places available cheaper than NCM available to homebrew stores. ithink what i a lot people were getting at is the huge price difference between NCM and other stores

North country is not a homebrew store. They are a wholesaler to homebrew stores. You can't compare prices between a homebrew store and where the homebrew store buys their items to sell.

Let's say Home depot buys a drill from Ryobi for $50 and sells it for $90. You have the hook up and you are able to buy directly from Ryobi for $50. Home Depot has to buy them, recieve them, stock them, pay the employees, advertise, etc. You can't compare the wholesale price with a retail price.

Forrest

P.S. Yes $15 per hour. I pay my employees well and the 25 cents per minute covers the employees wage, comission, 401k matching, paid vacation, my half of the federal income tax, FICA, and medicaid. It doesn't include any profit.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I somewhat understand the costs of a HBS and don't think most of them overcharge for the most part. But like anybody I still like saving money and like avoiding any extra middleman if I can.

I wonder if HBS could (or do) consider some items as loss leaders? You'd think that the homebrewers buying grain by the 55# sack would be the ones doing the most brewing and thus will buy more of all the other stuff. So maybe you make less per lb of grain on that particular customer but they buy so much yeast/hops/supplies that it makes up for it. There is still a LOT of supplies/equipment needed and it seems the last thing you'd want is the higher-volume brewers going elsewhere.

It still doesn't save me that much after all the shipping cost, but $57 delivered to my door is reasonable and def easy. Got a sack of Canadian Pale on the way now (just bought a sack of Pils a couple weeks ago).

 

[Airborneguy]

I have to agree with Forrest here, especially since he takes a hit on shipping to keep web orders affordable. They are providing a service (putting all the products together in one place), and that business has costs. I've been ordering from him lately because even with shipping, he can still beat my homebrew shop on somethings. There is a lot of choice for consumers in this hobby. If you feel like you are getting ripped off, you probably aren't looking hard enough at your options.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

I somewhat understand the costs of a HBS and don't think most of them overcharge for the most part. But like anybody I still like saving money and like avoiding any extra middleman if I can.

I wonder if HBS could (or do) consider some items as loss leaders? You'd think that the homebrewers buying grain by the 55# sack would be the ones doing the most brewing and thus will buy more of all the other stuff. So maybe you make less per lb of grain on that particular customer but they buy so much yeast/hops/supplies that it makes up for it. There is still a LOT of supplies/equipment needed and it seems the last thing you'd want is the higher-volume brewers going elsewhere.

It still doesn't save me that much after all the shipping cost, but $57 delivered to my door is reasonable and def easy. Got a sack of Canadian Pale on the way now (just bought a sack of Pils a couple weeks ago).

Actually, the people that buy bags of grain often reculture their yeast, buy thier hops directly, and already have thier equipment. They already go somewhere else. I can't sell grain for way less then it cost me. I am sure you understand.

The extract brewers brew the most and buy the most.

I am all for customers buying whatever they need from where ever they get the best deal.

It cost me 70 cents a pound to ship grain. I ship it to you for free if you order over $100. It already is a loss leader for me at $1.15 per pound.

If you are able to buy grain way below my cost you should go for it.

Forrest

 

[jezter6]

I'm going to agree with Forrest on this one. I know homebrewers are a frugal bunch and want to get max productivity at minimal cost almost as if we were commercial breweries, but the fact is even paying LHBS higher prices, your beer is still super cheap in comparison to buying a lot of commercial beer.

Also, think about what else your LHBS has to offer. They have the guy who will sample your beer and give feedback, talk you through some recipe questions last second, provides a place for "n00bs" to stop in and learn about the hobby and start brewing, and all the other ingredients you may need last minute. That all costs them money, and frankly like Forrest says, isn't a huge profit business unless they really are price gouging and have customers willing to pay the price.

If you don't have a LHBS or your local one(s) is far overpriced and the guy behind the counter is a ****** - then yes, order somewhere else. But for those of us that have decent shops, and think long term about the hobby and enjoy the ability to have a shop nearby to get last minute ingredients or replace a lost bung in an emergency - you have to support your shop, or he's going to end up out of business and then the amount of options we have as homebrewers will start to dwindle, and it'll end up near impossible to get.

 

[samc]

It's almost impossible to convince people who never ran a business what is actually involved in doing so. Most LHBS's are much smaller than Austin so they can't logically order a pallet of 2 row and have it sit on the floor taking up space. It would sit for a long time before it ever got sold. Floor space = rent, capital tied up in buying the pallet of grain = opportunity costs that could be tied up in other more profitable or fluidly moving items.

I cringe every time I read someone saying that they are being ripped off by paying $60 for a bag of grain, 100% mark up in retail on a bulky slow moving item is nothing.

I used to get customers in one of my businesses complaining about having to pay 6 cents for a xerox copy when they could travel 8 miles across a bridge in heavy traffic and get the same copy for 3 cents. My stock answer was go for it !! (and get the @#@$ out of my store! - LOL)

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I know homebrewers are a frugal bunch and want to get max productivity at minimal cost almost as if we were commercial breweries, but the fact is even paying LHBS higher prices, your beer is still super cheap in comparison to buying a lot of commercial beer.

I agree with almost all of your post but if we are going to add up 'all' costs (which is what the HBS's are doing to make their point) then once we add in all of the labor we put into it we aren't even close to saving money. Since $15/hr apparently is the 'going rate' let's just add $15 per hour we spend on each batch (not just brewing it but racking/kegging/bottling/maintenance/i.e. everything) and then consider how much we 'save'. This isn't really pertinent to the topic...just sayin'.

But considering we do get 'product' from it; my typical response is that it's still cheaper than golf (or many other hobbies).

 

[jezter6]

What led me to my post was going down to the LHBS on Saturday to get ingredients, and I went back into the grain room and saw just an ungodly amount of grain. Buckets and tubs of EVERY malt, all on hand to make whatever I wanted. It was just a beautiful sight, and I was happy that I had someone else willing to hold all that grain (because I don't have the room for that many bags and tubs at home) and have just what i need available instead of having tons of 2row sitting around and then going (sort of sacrilegiously) back to the store for just a few ounces of malt I don't keep at home.

I love my LHBS, and I'm willing to support him. Not only am I a happy customer, I talked to him about this thread and he was happy that I was willing to pay a little more for the service he provided instead of trying to put him out of business.

He did say he sold the Wyeast packs at a loss, so I'm glad I bought a bunch of grain with my yeast, otherwise I'd just be a negative drain on his budget.

 

[FromZwolle]

my lhbs is five minutes from my work, mcm is ten minutes from work. the lhbs doesn't sell sacks, and their grain choices are a little limited. Add to that, the guys that work at the lhbs are noob brewers, therefore can't really give a whole lot of brewing/ingredient advice. i want to support the local guys, but really can't afford to pay their malt prices, so i split it up by bulk ordering from mcm and getting the rest from the local shop.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I have three of those cheapo tubs they sell @ Home Depot and that holds enough grain so that I can brew anything I want at a moments notice. And that's usually including two full 55# sacks in those tubs. It doesn't take up that much room but I do place an online order every couple of months or so and it's not like I keep everything under the sun on-hand (I tend to keep using the same malts).

But I'm in the boat you mentioned above: 45 min. drive each way, store owners are jerks, store is not well maintained/cleaned, prices are high, selection is low, and a few other things.

 

[jezter6]

Spanish,

You're right, you're in that slightly different group. And i've done the cheapo tubs and had 6 of them full of various grain like 2 row, wheat, munich, etc. But what happens when you want to brew this weekend and the recipe you found calls for 3oz of Biscuit, and 5 oz of Crystal? Either you pay shipping for 8 oz of malt, or you go to a LHBS that's fully stocked and there for you. If you rely on the LHBS for that 8oz, then put him out of business by buying bulk elsewhere, it seems a bit hypocritical to me if you want that guy to be around next time you need something.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

If a small homebrew store sells their items at a higher price it is because they have to in order to stay in business. It is an economy of scale. The smaller you are the more you pay for everything.

Forrest

 

[jezter6]

And, if you support them, and help them grow ... maybe it will change that scale in your favor down the road!

Support your HBS! (I took out the L because not everyone has one local, and if not, use a great vendor that supports HomeBrewTalk).

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Spanish,

You're right, you're in that slightly different group. And i've done the cheapo tubs and had 6 of them full of various grain like 2 row, wheat, munich, etc. But what happens when you want to brew this weekend and the recipe you found calls for 3oz of Biscuit, and 5 oz of Crystal? Either you pay shipping for 8 oz of malt, or you go to a LHBS that's fully stocked and there for you. If you rely on the LHBS for that 8oz, then put him out of business by buying bulk elsewhere, it seems a bit hypocritical to me if you want that guy to be around next time you need something.

I have a couple pounds each of several crystal/caramunich malts and Carafa/Chocolate/Pale chocolate/Roast Barley plus fives of pounds of Honey/Biscuit/Aromatic/Dark Munich/Wheat plus plus tens of pounds of Vienna/Munich in addition to bulk Pils/Pale malts. Plus some carapils, flaked grains, sauer malt, etc oddball stuff. That pretty much covers everything I brew. I order on a fairly regular basis so it's pretty easy to stay stocked and virtually never find myself needing a specialty grain (I brew almost every weekend).

I virtually never use the LHBS but if there were one I liked I would.

 

[jezter6]

Holy crap man. Maybe you ARE the LHBS

 

[Trouble_Brewing]

Not to belabor the point made well by others, but unless you run a retail brick and mortar business, you really have no understanding of how difficult or expensive it is. The smaller you are the tougher it is, but being bigger requires a LOT more capitol so is out of reach for most. Did you ever stop to think why the failure or closure rate for most stores (not to mention home brew shops) is so high? It's because they cost a lot more time and money to run than most people think. They either go bankrupt or figure out they can make a lot more money working some meaningless job than they can owning a store.

I'd love to have a full service home brew store here. A few places (a grocery store and a wine/beer shop carry a SMALL amount of stuff. It's better than nothing, but if I need more than 1-2# of anything I'm out of luck, and the hops are never stored in a fridge either.

 

[robertbartsch]

I ordered 50lbs of DME from them a few weeks back and the web page was not freindly to homebrewers. Finally, I had to call them on the phone and ask them to take my order.

This kinda blows since my local brew store sells the same DME at 5X the price.

 

[robertbartsch]

My local brew store is not well stocked. Last weekend I went there and they had no DME and no fementing buckets. Their grains were minimal and I would not be able to create a bill for a particular receipe from their inventory. Yeh, they have two dozen kits that appear to move regularly, some yeast and hops and a few minor tools.

Their prices are very high but they are convenient - about 20 minutes away.

So if I need stuff for a recipe, I would have to order it on-line and incurr shipping costs.

If I am going to do that, I am going to shop for a rock bottom price and CountryMaltGroup fit that need.

 

[lamarguy]

FWIW, my LHBS strikes a very reasonable compromise between profit, cost, and supporting all-grain brewers who purchase in bulk.

The rules are simple:

1. Place your whole bag order by Wednesday of every week. No milling, partial bags, etc.
2. Pickup the grain the following Wednesday.
3. Pay $10 over the LHBS's cost (grain + shipping).

The store makes a profit (including cost reduction from tier discounts), the customer pays a reasonable price, and everyone is happy.

Forrest, you might consider instituting a similar program...

 

[Bobby_M]

How did this get into a discussion about how hard it is to run a business? It's totally besides the point. Great, business are hard work, many fail. In no way does it suggest that people should pay $15-20 more per sack if they don't have to. My closest HBS wants $65 a sack of Maris and that is WITH my club discount. No, I think I'll get it from NCM for $40 shipped to my town.

Frankly, I wouldn't sell full sacks at a bulk price if I have to do more than point to it on the floor over there. Milling? You're back up near retail lb price.