NOOB: Extract vs Partial vs All Grain

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rayg said:
So I take it you don't package your own homebrew then, you just
leave it in a tray or something?
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Actually he eats the fresh ingredients raw because once you make beer with them, they are processed and that makes them bad. Raw barley, raw hops, raw yeast and water collected from the rain. He's been know to go to the extremes of eating barley directly off the plant with his arms tied behind his back. Even touching the plant to pick the barley defies the purity of the ingredients. You must understand this guy is one serious troll!
 
I started with a very simple Mr beer kit and did 2 batches. Just wanted to see if I liked the brewing process. It was fun, so I then skipped up to a unhopped extract with steeping grains. They are very common at local brew shops. It does give some control and a feel like you are brewing from scratch. Also they are simple and require very little equipment. You can do it right on your stove. I have done 2 batches and I am very pleased. After a few more I would like to try a partial mash but need to get some more equipment. It starts to get a little expensive, since I am out of work. I am sure after doing some partial mashes I might go to all grain. A little at a time seems to work for me. Baby steps.
 
BlueSunshine said:
Do people that dislike extract have any higher opinions of extract with steeping grains?
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All depends on the person. Some seem to feel that if a drop of extract falls in your wort that will turn your beer into something akin to raw sewage. Others are more realistic.
 
ChshreCat said:
All depends on the person. Some seem to feel that if a drop of extract falls in your wort that will turn your beer into something akin to raw sewage. Others are more realistic.
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Haha yeah.

There was a thread on FARK a long time ago where people were discussing homebrewing and there were several snobs who bashed the heck out of extract. Then again, FARK is troll central so it's to be expected. Then out of a blue someone said they shouldn't argue because they were on the same team, and he linked HBT and had good things to say.

I must say that my batches using hand picked steeping grains, hops, yeast, whirfloc, irish moss, chocolate, coffee, and other things seem to be VERY involved and isn't like "making soup from a can". I'm definitely going to be moving up to all grain eventually, but I don't think that spending more time on one portion of the brewing process will make me a superior brewer.

To paraphrase that FARK poster, we ARE all on the same team guys. :mug:
 
I am not putting down extract, and have not yet evolved into all grain. Put it does give me some self confidence and control with using my own hops and steeping grains.
 
nordoe said:
I am not putting down extract, and have not yet evolved into all grain. Put it does give me some self confidence and control with using my own hops and steeping grains.
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Moving from extract to AG is NOT an evolution. One method is NOT better then the other. You decide what's best for you. Contrary to popular belief, for lots of people extract is the best method for making beer. For others AG is the best. :mug:
 
I'm a level 5 vegan: I can only eat things that don't cast a shadow.

Anyway... the only snobbish thing that I feel towards extract are the extracts that require table sugar, and lots of it, for the recipe.

I went AG because it's significantly cheaper for me these days. That and the extra control I have is about it.

I will say that extract probably leads you to a more consistent beer flavor, since you are leaving the mashing to professionals.

In the end, if you like it, and it tastes good, who f*cking cares if it came as goop in a bag or grain in a sack?
 
TheFlatline said:
I'm a level 5 vegan: I can only eat things that don't cast a shadow.

Anyway... the only snobbish thing that I feel towards extract are the extracts that require table sugar, and lots of it, for the recipe.
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No extracts require sugar. It's the particular recipe that calls for sugar. The extract is the same as what's used in another recipe that's not a "can and a kilo".
 
ChshreCat said:
No extracts require sugar. It's the particular recipe that calls for sugar. The extract is the same as what's used in another recipe that's not a "can and a kilo".
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You're right, I should have said "extract recipes" and not "extracts".

But any can of muntons or coopers that tells you to add 4 pounds of table sugar isn't going to taste very good.
 
Fermantable sugars from malted(or not) grain(s), water, yeast(preferably brewers), temperature control(sort of), and time equals beer to me!
I like beer so all things totaled up, let's just make some freakin' beer man!!
 
I've read this thread with interest... I'm very new to the hobby and just "graduated" from a Mr. Beer to a Deluxe Kit from Austin Homebrew (+ three ball kegs from Chi)... all to be delivered this coming week.

Here's my deal... the wife and I drink a lot of good beer, and have done so for 30 years. Previously, it was beer we bought at the store or drank at microbreweries (some in different parts of the world). I started making beer with this Mr Beer kit my daughter bought me for Christmas. It is "Betty Crocker" pure and simple... but, it is fun and quite honestly, the beer is good (remember, we know good beer). Bear in mind, I quickly discovered that to get good beer from a Mr. Beer kit, you had to deviate from their instructions a bit (longer fermentation time, careful control of fermentation temps, and longer time carbing & conditioning).

I'm looking to make this new hobby a little more challenging; more importantly, I'm looking for a way to increase the flow into our pipeline (the Mr Beer couldn't remotely keep up with demand... especially with the added time I discovered the process really needed).

Anyway, all this talk about control and such... guys at my stage don't need that much control. Control is a great thing if you know what you are doing... it is a bad thing if you don't.

I'm still reading this forum trying to figure out what a "mash tun" is. Until I cipher it out, I'll keep brewing some fine beer with liquid extract... and learning how to carb it, keg it, and keep the bugs out.

I am not a stupid person... but, there is a lot to learn before one starts piloting the ship. Will I go to AG eventually? I'm sure I will for the challenge and self satisfaction that comes with knowing "I really made that." Until then, I'll stick with extracts because I know good beer, and I've proven to myself that extracts will indeed make them at my speed.
 
BigTexun said:
I've read this thread with interest... I'm very new to the hobby and just "graduated" from a Mr. Beer to a Deluxe Kit from Austin Homebrew (+ three ball kegs from Chi)... all to be delivered this coming week.

Here's my deal... the wife and I drink a lot of good beer, and have done so for 30 years. Previously, it was beer we bought at the store or drank at microbreweries (some in different parts of the world). I started making beer with this Mr Beer kit my daughter bought me for Christmas. It is "Betty Crocker" pure and simple... but, it is fun and quite honestly, the beer is good (remember, we know good beer). Bear in mind, I quickly discovered that to get good beer from a Mr. Beer kit, you had to deviate from their instructions a bit (longer fermentation time, careful control of fermentation temps, and longer time carbing & conditioning).

I'm looking to make this new hobby a little more challenging; more importantly, I'm looking for a way to increase the flow into our pipeline (the Mr Beer couldn't remotely keep up with demand... especially with the added time I discovered the process really needed).

Anyway, all this talk about control and such... guys at my stage don't need that much control. Control is a great thing if you know what you are doing... it is a bad thing if you don't.

I'm still reading this forum trying to figure out what a "mash tun" is. Until I cipher it out, I'll keep brewing some fine beer with liquid extract... and learning how to carb it, keg it, and keep the bugs out.

I am not a stupid person... but, there is a lot to learn before one starts piloting the ship. Will I go to AG eventually? I'm sure I will for the challenge and self satisfaction that comes with knowing "I really made that." Until then, I'll stick with extracts because I know good beer, and I've proven to myself that extracts will indeed make them at my speed.
Click to expand...

I am in the same boat. I saw a Mr. Beer on Woot.com over the summer and thought I'd see how I liked brewing beer (My brother has been telling me for a while how much he enjoys it, but the price made me hesitant to buy a real kit just to try it out once). I ended up enjoying it and got my real kit over the holidays (extract, not AG). I've made several batches already (I wanted to have a few types to bring to my dad's 50th) and think I would like to do all grain one day, but right now the combination of equipment cost and not enough time for a 5 hour brew is making me wait.
 
For most of us, a mash tun is simply a large ice cooler that we've fitted with some form of filter.

You dump in your grain, mix in your hot water, and when it's time, you drain off the wort from the grain.

A lot of the language is obscure and uses kind of archaic terms, but the process is fairly straightforward. The devil, however, is in the details.

And if you like the beer you make, I say good on you.
 
BigTexun said:
I'm looking to make this new hobby a little more challenging; more importantly, I'm looking for a way to increase the flow into our pipeline (the Mr Beer couldn't remotely keep up with demand... especially with the added time I discovered the process really needed).
Click to expand...

Well, three ways to do that - increase amount per batch, increase the stuff in the pipeline and decrease time per batch.

The first option is easy. For 5 gallon batches all you need is a big pot, a big fermenter (bucket or carboy) and a big bottling bucket (w/spigot.) All that can be had for around $40. That's approx 2 cases of 12oz bottles per batch.

The second option is also easy. To increase the beer you can have in the pipeline at any given time, all you need is another bucket/airlock ($16) and you can have another beer fermenting while you bottle the first one. Get four fermentors total and you can be bottling twice a week.

The third is harder. There have been a few people who have tried things to speed up the process (like the Aussie poster who fermented at 40C) but you may end up sacrificing taste.
 
TheFlatline said:
You're right, I should have said "extract recipes" and not "extracts".

But any can of muntons or coopers that tells you to add 4 pounds of table sugar isn't going to taste very good.
Click to expand...

Its not going to taste much different than an AG recipe with 4 pounds of table sugar.
 
BigTexun said:
I'm still reading this forum trying to figure out what a "mash tun" is. Until I cipher it out, I'll keep brewing some fine beer with liquid extract... and learning how to carb it, keg it, and keep the bugs out.

I am not a stupid person... but, there is a lot to learn before one starts piloting the ship. Will I go to AG eventually? I'm sure I will for the challenge and self satisfaction that comes with knowing "I really made that." Until then, I'll stick with extracts because I know good beer, and I've proven to myself that extracts will indeed make them at my speed.
Click to expand...

I think that your approach is a great one, but I have one bit of advice for you. Try to find an all-grain homebrewer and watch them brew well BEFORE you think you want to move to all-grain. I think extract brewing is great and even though I'm new I can tell this is going to be a long hobby for me. However, like you I spent weeks trying to figure out all-grain brewing by reading online, and then learned at least ten times what I could learn by reading in just a few hours of watching all-grain brewing. I don't have the time, space, money, or stability right now to do all-grain, but when I do decide I'm ready, it will be a much less intimidating process.
 
Synovia said:
Its not going to taste much different than an AG recipe with 4 pounds of table sugar.
Click to expand...

That's 100% right.

That much sugar (in proportion to the batch size) would create a soup of acetylaldehyde.

The only thing it would be good for IMO would be cleaning your sink's drain while you dump it.
 
So the main difference between extract and AG is the boiling of extra grains instead of using malt extract? That seems like a really small difference.... Because you can use your boiler for a tun beforehand to get the wort prepped instead of pouring extract in right? My brother told me to look up brew in a bag methods before I started to brew and it seems like that is ganna be really easy to do, just toss in the malts and grains, let it steep, filter it and add more grIn and hops in the boil... Feels like I'm missing somethin cuz this all seems really really simple :/

And if that's the main difference between partials, extracts, and AG... I think I'm ganna dive into AG head first. There doesn't seem to be much mote equipment you NEED right off the bat, like a seperate tun or wort chiller when you can use the boiler as a tun and toss the pot in the sink.with cold water for a chiller... A little McGuyvering here and there and I should be in business :) hopefully my koko brown first time recipe works out well... I don't wanna wait till December for it to "be in season" again...
 
Yeah,even partial boil partial mash biab I do is more involved. Water to grist amounts & mash temps for the style desired all come into play. How much grains to how much extract? What kind of extract? When to do how many hop additions of what hops? Etc,etc,...Def do some more studying. I've done 8 or 10 pm beers now,& I'm just getting comfortable with it to branch out more. I think my Maori IPA is my best yet,but it took from jan'10 till acouple months ago to get there. for me anyway,as I was in no real hurry to join "the cool crowd" that brews AG & kegs. I prefer to do it my way,& took some flack for it. But it's coming out good.
 
bcboyz86 said:
So the main difference between extract and AG is the boiling of extra grains instead of using malt extract? That seems like a really small difference.... Because you can use your boiler for a tun beforehand to get the wort prepped instead of pouring extract in right? My brother told me to look up brew in a bag methods before I started to brew and it seems like that is ganna be really easy to do, just toss in the malts and grains, let it steep, filter it and add more grIn and hops in the boil... Feels like I'm missing somethin cuz this all seems really really simple :/

And if that's the main difference between partials, extracts, and AG... I think I'm ganna dive into AG head first. There doesn't seem to be much mote equipment you NEED right off the bat, like a seperate tun or wort chiller when you can use the boiler as a tun and toss the pot in the sink.with cold water for a chiller... A little McGuyvering here and there and I should be in business :) hopefully my koko brown first time recipe works out well... I don't wanna wait till December for it to "be in season" again...
Click to expand...

Just don't boil the grain. Ever. Seriously. Mash grain. Boil wort.
 
Lol...its probably a good thing my brother is Ganna help me on my first try... But he's a serious brewer, so I'm sure he'll know what to do and not. Is there a big difference between extract malt and mashed malt? Like flavor wise, or any other way besides being just concentrated?
 
You should read this post from the beginning. The first page alone will answer most of these questions. And like Shooter suggested, How To Brew by John Palmer is an excellent resource. The whole thing is free online too.
 
I did read it from the begining to end, musta missed that part. But i do understand the jist of it. Ive watched a lot of videos of people doing diferent brews... even stumbled on a video called "mr beer goes horribly wrong part 1" ...its a little slow start, but if ya hang in there till about 4min its gets really funny real fast.... im pretty excited to start though. Got my 30qt pot in the mail on the way. And when it gets here i will be a happy camper :)
 
The only real difference between full-boil extract and all-grain/PM is the extra mash step. Its one more step in the process. With BIAB method it doesn't require more equipment (other than the bag).

The only advantage to all-grain/PM is more control of the finished beer because there are more steps and variables. But the advantage to extract is it is quicker and "eaisier." It just depends on your preference, and there are no wrong/bad preferences.
 
I got my first batch of nut brown brewing in the carboy. Wasn't too rough of a start, but definitely see where I need more attention and care... But I'm really excited to try it! Hopefully it turns out well... I also bottled some cider same day, so i hope that also doesn't taste like liquid poo...
 
nevertrustahipie said:
The only real difference between full-boil extract and all-grain/PM is the extra mash step. Its one more step in the process. With BIAB method it doesn't require more equipment (other than the bag).

The only advantage to all-grain/PM is more control of the finished beer because there are more steps and variables. But the advantage to extract is it is quicker and "eaisier." It just depends on your preference, and there are no wrong/bad preferences.
Click to expand...
That extra mash step isn't as hard as many folks think. Hell,I was the same way 10 brews ago. Don't get me wrong,i can pitch a ***** on AE,but partial mash is da shizz. The hardest part to get right is accurate temp control,& I've proffesed about that fairly often. The rest is easy. Once you get the cahuns to try it the first time,you see it's not all that mystrious after all.
 
The toughest part is strike temp vs mash temp. That took some doing to get the feel for, but even if you miss it it's fairly easy to adjust for. I just keep some brewing water cold n the fridge and some more simmering on the stove so I can make quick adjustments up or down if I need.
 
im still confused between partial mash and steeping, heres what im confused about. when steeping grains are no fermentable sugars released? why is this? is it to do with the grains, or the temp, or the time they're steeped, or because they are placed in a muslin bag, or is it the ratio of water to grain which defines a partial mash? for example if i take 1 pound of crystal malt and add 3 galons of water at 150 degrees farenheight my brewing app is telling me my gravity will go from 1.005 to 1.001 and ill get 0.5%ABV. if i put that in a muslin bag would this not happen. this seems like a very fine line to me and id like some clarification

cheers
 
irishrover32 said:
im still confused between partial mash and steeping, heres what im confused about. when steeping grains are no fermentable sugars released? why is this? is it to do with the grains or the temp or the time they're steeped or because they placed in a muslin bag? for example if i take 1 pound of crystal malt and add 3 galons of water at 150 degrees farenheight my brewing app is telling me my gravity will go from 1.005 to 1.001 and ill get 0.5%ABV. if i put that in a muslin bag would this not happen. this seems like a very fine line to me and id like some clarification

cheers
Click to expand...

When steeping, no fermentable sugars are released, correct.

It's because of the type of grain used.

When mashing, we hold grains at a certain temperature for a certain period of time so that the enzymes in the grain can turn the unfermentable starches into fermentable sugars.

Crystal malt and other specialty grains do not contain the necessary enzymes to create the conversion.

Grains that contain these enzymes are referred to as 'base' malts. They are often mashed with specialty grains so that the enzymes in the base malt convert both their own starches and the starches in the specialty grains into fermentable sugars.

Not to try to confuse the issue, but if you were to put a base malt in a muslin bag and steep it, say at 150 to 155 degrees for 30 minutes, you'd inavertently be mashing it. The conversion (the amount of starch turned into sugar) would be pretty low, and a good bit lower than a full-blown mash, but you'd get some kind of conversion.

Again, it's driven by the grain and whether the grain contains the proper enzymes.

Does this help?
 
Mozart said:
When steeping, no fermentable sugars are released, correct.

It's because of the type of grain used.

When mashing, we hold grains at a certain temperature for a certain period of time so that the enzymes in the grain can turn the unfermentable starches into fermentable sugars.

Crystal malt and other specialty grains do not contain the necessary enzymes to create the conversion.

Grains that contain these enzymes are referred to as 'base' malts. They are often mashed with specialty grains so that the enzymes in the base malt convert both their own starches and the starches in the specialty grains into fermentable sugars.

Not to try to confuse the issue, but if you were to put a base malt in a muslin bag and steep it, say at 150 to 155 degrees for 30 minutes, you'd inavertently be mashing it. The conversion (the amount of starch turned into sugar) would be pretty low, and a good bit lower than a full-blown mash, but you'd get some kind of conversion.

Again, it's driven by the grain and whether the grain contains the proper enzymes.

Does this help?
Click to expand...

thats fantastic you cleared so much up for me there now i understand the term base malts and specialty grains. i also found a great page with a list of grains and weather they need to be mashed or not, i take it the ones that need to be mashed are base malts and the ones that dont are specialty grains. maybe someone will also find this useful here it is:

http://beersmith.com/grain-list/
 
Mozart did a great job with that explanation -

I'll just add this - steeping grains are for color and flavor (toasty, dark, etc), so I use a 20-minute tea-bag approach when I'm using extract (drop 'em in cold, and as I bring up the heat, I pull them out at about 150F).
When I mash, I throw it all together into the mash and done.
 
Hang Glider said:
Mozart did a great job with that explanation -

I'll just add this - steeping grains are for color and flavor (toasty, dark, etc), so I use a 20-minute tea-bag approach when I'm using extract (drop 'em in cold, and as I bring up the heat, I pull them out at about 150F).
When I mash, I throw it all together into the mash and done.
Click to expand...

ok i see, im gonna be doing a milk stout and im thinking about throwing some flaked oats in but obviously these have to be mashed, the grains i got with the kit include carapils, roasted barley, and chocolate along with dark malt extract. if i add the oats into the steep with the specialty malts at 150 farenhieght for 30 minutes in .5 gallons of water will they mash or would they need more time?
 
irishrover32 said:
ok i see, im gonna be doing a milk stout and im thinking about throwing some flaked oats in but obviously these have to be mashed, the grains i got with the kit include carapils, roasted barley, and chocolate along with dark malt extract. if i add the oats into the steep with the specialty malts at 150 farenhieght for 30 minutes in .5 gallons of water will they mash or would they need more time?
Click to expand...

No, you don't have any base malt in there. If there is no base malt then there are no enzymes to convert the starches in the grains to sugar. Mashing is the conversion of starch in the grain to sugar. Specialty grains don't have enzymes because they have been kilned or stewed and the heat from this process destroys the enzymes. You would need to add enough base malt to convert the oats.

Edit: also flaked oats don't have enzymes because they have not gone through the malting process like base malts.
 

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