Non food grade bucket use

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What kind of containers are you eyeing up?

There's a (small) potential risk of things such as BPAs leaching out into your solutions (over time). Since everything gets rinsed (with clean water) after cleaning, I wouldn't worry about that so much.

Except for your Starsan or Iodophor, since that doesn't get rinsed. It would be a very, very small amount, though, if any.

Now if you save the Starsan for 2 months in such a BPA leaching bucket, it could contain a more substantial amount. But again, in the 1/2 ounce that sticks to your vessel, it may still be insignificant.
 
None in particular. I was just wanting to get a cheap bucket for cleaning/sanitizing. I wouldn't be letting anything soak for any extended period.
 
Steveruch said:
None in particular. I was just wanting to get a cheap bucket for cleaning/sanitizing. I wouldn't be letting anything soak for any extended period.
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Like a Homer/Lowe's/Ace bucket?

We had some threads about using those as fermenters... The bigger problem was they're a bit too small for a 5 gallon batch. ;)
 
If you're just planning on using it as a dunk bucket for cleaning up on brew day and dumping it out, I see no problem, anything over a couple days of storage in said bucket might be a problem. I use the orange Home Depot 5 gallon buckets and lid for brining my turkeys during the holidays for two or three days at a time.
 
As long as the buckets are chemical proof, you should be OK.

Personally, I bought some food grade buckets (with lids) form a restaurant supplier many years back. I use those for mixing up sanitizer and cleaning solution as needed. The side handles makes them easy to move around/carry too. You can get them on Amazon as well, now. I like them because they're both clear, and graduated. Makes mixing up smaller amounts easier.
 
You *should* be sure you have a plastic type that is safe for acids and whatever else you are going to use.
https://www.calpaclab.com/chemical-compatibility-charts/
plastic.PNG


See:
Phosphoric acid 10%LDPE / HDPE at 20°C-50°C: little or no damage after 30 days.
Phosphoric acid 85%LDPE / HDPE at 20°C: little or no damage after 30 days.
LDPE at 50°C: shows immediate damage and is not recommended.

I would use HDPE and call it good. LDPE is fine, but HDPE would last longer.
I recommend a food safe 1-5 gal bucket. Cheap and easy.

But I often just use whatever plastic bowl I have laying around, and haven't had any melt on me.
 
If your grocery store has a bakery or a hot food prep area, they likely throw away ( and will therefore give you) food grade buckets. Lots in 3 gallon that icing comes in - might be just right as a wash bucket. And I have seen 5 gallon buckets for oil, soy sauce, etc.
 
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IslandLizard said:
Like a Homer/Lowe's/Ace bucket?

We had some threads about using those as fermenters... The bigger problem was they're a bit too small for a 5 gallon batch. ;)
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Or a Wal-Mart bucket.

I'm not going to ferment in it, I'm just looking for something cheap to use for cleaning with Oxiclean and sanitizing with starsan... No problem as I do three gallon batches.
 
The other day I went to buy a few more of the food grade white buckets and they were $8 at both menards and home depot. Must be a local shortage, the non food grade were a little more than they used to be, but nothing like that
 
Beer is classed as a food. Only some plastics are considered 'food grade' these days, for very good reasons. Mainly toxicological reasons. It's not worth taking a punt, imho. I use cheap plastic bucket FVs for cleaning duty, 15L and 30L.
 
@Steveruchi wouldn't use anything but food grade buckets.. As
others have mentioned, you can get them free from many food service establishments. I use buckets from Asian restaurants, fast food places and others. They are all cleanable, even soy sauce, pickle and mayo buckets clean up easily. The first batch of homebrew that I had to dump was a strong ale that I fermented in plastic. It was so phenolic it was not drinkable. Stopped using anything short of food grade immediately. And still only use food grade plastic for anything such as sanitizer or PBW etc.
 
No issue. The reason, at least the main reason that most of these containers are not marked food grade, is COST. it costs thousands in fees to get the materials approved and each container gas to be marked also. NSF is main approver and is a real rippoff organization. I know, I dealt with them for 16 years. There is NO LEAD or heavy metals used by US manufacturers. if they are made in the US, you could eat off if them safely.
 
wsmith1625 said:
Most buckets at Home Depot and Lowes are HDPE, including the orange Homer buckets.
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Where does it state that? I ask because the colored ones sold for other use than food storage typically are not food grade due to the dyes they use in the plastic. for use in storing dry goods you would be fine.
I learned this a while back with locline some used for sparge arms. all colors but black are NOT food grade. The dye actually leeches out of the plastic. Will it kill you? no but such things usually dont right away, instead they can cause other issues like cancer in rare situations or with excessive use. Not to sound paranoid here but I would just rather avoid ingesting unknown dyes myself and at the brewpub we avoid any possibility of such things by using the correct white food grade buckets.
 
Brewdog80 said:
No issue. The reason, at least the main reason that most of these containers are not marked food grade, is COST. it costs thousands in fees to get the materials approved and each container gas to be marked also. NSF is main approver and is a real rippoff organization. I know, I dealt with them for 16 years. There is NO LEAD or heavy metals used by US manufacturers. if they are made in the US, you could eat off if them safely.
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This is a good point but the reality is the company that makes the bucket doesnt spec a food grade dye from the manufacturer that makes the dye or them. and chances are not much attention is given to whats in that dye since they arent going to pay for the food grade certification. Therefore there are unknowns that can change at any time and the bucket maker may not even know (or care) since thier buckets are made for food storage use. Also keep in mind temps are another factor.
Even a food grade cooler is lined with plastic thats only foodsafe at temps below 170 degrees as they start leeching above that temp.
 
augiedoggy said:
Where does it state that? I ask because the colored ones sold for other use than food storage typically are not food grade due to the dyes they use in the plastic. for use in storing dry goods you would be fine.
I learned this a while back with locline some used for sparge arms. all colors but black are NOT food grade. The dye actually leeches out of the plastic. Will it kill you? no but such things usually dont right away, instead they can cause other issues like cancer in rare situations or with excessive use. Not to sound paranoid here but I would just rather avoid ingesting unknown dyes myself and at the brewpub we avoid any possibility of such things by using the correct white food grade buckets.
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The orange Home Depot buckets are HDPE 2. Flip them over and it's molded into the bottom. Most buckets are marked this way.

I AGREE that they're not food grade and don't use them myself. I use all food grade buckets. However, I would have no problem using one as a wash water bucket if it was the only one available.
 
wsmith1625 said:
The orange Home Depot buckets are HDPE 2. Flip them over and it's molded into the bottom. Most buckets are marked this way.

I AGREE that they're not food grade and don't use them myself. I use all food grade buckets. However, I would have no problem using one as a wash water bucket if it was the only one available.
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I agree with this. its more long term or high temp direct food contact that would concern me personally.
 
Brewdog80 said:
No issue. The reason, at least the main reason that most of these containers are not marked food grade, is COST. it costs thousands in fees to get the materials approved and each container gas to be marked also. NSF is main approver and is a real rippoff organization. I know, I dealt with them for 16 years. There is NO LEAD or heavy metals used by US manufacturers. if they are made in the US, you could eat off if them safely.
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Seriously? It’s actually got **** loads more to do with toxicological analysis and very sensible FDA regulations.
 
jerrylotto said:
... for longer term storage. Using them for washup is not a problem.
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Has anyone demonstrated that officially? I just do my home-brew washing up in cheap bin FVs that are made from food grade plastics. It's what my homemade keg washer's made from too. These days suppliers of manufacturers are responsible for the materials the supply. They'll be ordered at a required specification determined by the intended end use. There's no need to jump through expensive regulatory hoops if, say the FDA, has already decided plastic x is food safe.
 
Number 1: Polyethylene terephthalate (PET), a lightweight plastic, is used to make a slew of beverage bottles, from soft drinks to water. PET bottles are intended for a single use as PET breaks down with use and cannot be properly cleaned. The concern with PET products is not toxins but the buildup of bacteria due to infrequent or insufficient cleaning. Scratches and imperfections in the plastic may host germs. These plastic bottles are the most viable for recycling.

Number 2: A high-density polyethylene (HDPE) made from petroleum, this plastic is pliable, opaque and versatile. Its many uses include sport bottles, cloudy milk jugs, cereal box liners, trash and shopping bags, and shampoo and cleaning supply bottles. There’s low risk of leaching, and it’s also curbside recyclable.

Number 3: Along with Number 7, polyvinyl chloride (PVC or V) is one of the most controversial plastics. These containers should probably be set aside for nonfood usage. Use them to store crayons or beads rather than leftovers. Number 3 has been nicknamed the “toxic plastic” due to the softeners (DEHA) that with long-term exposure may cause cancer and other health issues. PVC is sometimes found in food containers, and often it is used in making plastic wrap.

Number 4: Low-density polyethylene (LDPE) is used in making bread bags, frozen-food bags and squeezable bottles. It transmits no known chemicals into food. It is recyclable.

Number 5: PP (polypropylene) is not as recyclable as numbers 1 and 2, but this plastic is another good option when choosing safe, toxin-free food and beverage containers. This omnipresent plastic is used in yogurt containers, syrup bottles, straws and medicine bottles.

Number 6: Polystyrene (PS) is used in making Styrofoam, plastic tableware and takeout containers. This plastic may leach styrene compounds — a possible carcinogen — and may disrupt hormonal functioning.

Number 7: A clear, hard, shatterproof plastic made with polycarbonate, specifically bisphenol-A. It may pose serious health risks. The popular and colorful Nalgene water bottles were a good example of this reusable plastic. The Nalgene company has replaced these water bottles with a bisphenol-A-free version. Studies conducted on laboratory animals revealed that even small amounts of bisphenol-A, a synthetic hormone, may be linked to breast, uterine and prostate cancers, premature developmental problems, obesity and diabetes.
 
Bottom line, (for me), if you don't want to store dry goods like grains or hops in a red or orange or blue bucket - don't. And don't forget free buckets at the grocery store if you are pinched for $3. Also - most grains and hops come to you in food grade bags, so often you can leave them in the bags and toss them in a bucket. That would leave special containers for base grains. You may see things differently.
 
Any of you who have ever been in a manufacturing environment can probably attest to the fact that a lot of used unknown scrap gets re-used when molding plastics.

Sometime OK, sometimes not. It happens.

So, you want to use Grade “1” buckets and plastics with food. At least (most of the time) there are standards for food grade. Of course a lot of this is produced overseas so all bets are off there too. At least you have a shot using the best plastics for that use.

Years ago a manufacturer was producing plastic toy parts using recycled PVC cable jacketing full of lead pigments for example. Then you have issues regarding less than optimally educated or trained manufacturing employees around the world and language issues resulting in all sorts of production problems.

Can you use unknown non-food grade plastic buckets? Well heck they used to use wood vats to make beer. Is it advised? Nope.
2B01C9BA-4F67-4632-9531-4584C25A112D.jpeg
 
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McMullan said:
Has anyone demonstrated that officially? I just do my home-brew washing up in cheap bin FVs that are made from food grade plastics. It's what my homemade keg washer's made from too. These days suppliers of manufacturers are responsible for the materials the supply. They'll be ordered at a required specification determined by the intended end use. There's no need to jump through expensive regulatory hoops if, say the FDA, has already decided plastic x is food safe.
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right but you can only assume its foodsafe for intended use... different plastics have different temp ranges they remain stable for. If you ever had the liner of a cooler warp or bubble on you that is because it reached a higher temp at some point than it was rated to be food safe. once a typical coolers liner goes over 170 degrees the plastic becomes unstable and starts more or less melting at this point it can be leeching chemical componds into whatever medium its in contact with. I dont know off had what the safe temp range is for a plastic bucket. honestly I dont put that much though into it as we only use them for pbw and saniclean when it comes to the brewery and the temps are never that extreme. And we only use the food grade white buckets which are plentiful and cheap.

You really dont want to assume anything, Some of the plastic pond pumps a few home brewing equipment seller were offering with thier "systems" were also not food grade or safe and I can think of one that changed thier offerings when I questioned them on this forum about it after contacting the manufacturer myself who stated they are not meant to be used for foodstuff contact. (They were also $14 pumps marked up ridiculously)
 
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Beermeister32 said:
Any of you who have ever been in a manufacturing environment can probably attest to the fact that a lot of used unknown scrap gets re-used when molding plastics.

Sometime OK, sometimes not. It happens.

So, you want to use Grade “1” buckets and plastics with food. At least (most of the time) there are standards for food grade. Of course a lot of this is produced overseas so all bets are off there too. At least you have a shot using the best plastics for that use.

Years ago a manufacturer was producing plastic toy parts using recycled PVC cable jacketing full of lead for example.

Can you use plastic buckets? Well heck they used to use wood vats to make beer. Is it advised? Nope.View attachment 752466
Click to expand...
I will argue those wood vats were safer any day of the week... Back then the yeast that infected the barrel whether wild or intentional was responsible for much of the beers character. some beers are still fermented and aged in wood like bourbon barrel aged stouts.
 
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As a sidebar, years ago the 1906 Food and Drug Act created standards for food, alcohol, drugs, production and storage standards.

Prior to this food manufactures did all sorts of things in food and food production to get the product out as quickly as possible, safety be damned.

So here we are in 2021 still discussing whether you can use some procedure in materials, practices or sanitation to shortcut or reduce the cost of process. Then we don’t understand why the regulators step into your lives? This is one of the reasons for the laws against distilling for example.

Use best practices folks.
 

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Beermeister32 said:
As a sidebar, years ago the 1906 Food and Drug Act created standards for food, alcohol, drugs, production and storage standards.

Prior to this food manufactures did all sorts of things in food and food production to get the product out as quickly as possible, safety be damned.

So here we are in 2021 still discussing whether you can use some procedure in materials, practices or sanitation to shortcut or reduce the cost of process. Then we don’t understand why the regulators step into your lives? This is one of the reasons for the laws against distilling for example.

Use best practices folks.
Click to expand...
Good point. but using a cooler mashtun is something many here including myself have done thinking "hey they are food grade" with that false sense of security... coicidently the highest sparge temp you want to use is just under that 170degree safety threshold.. also whats considered safe today may very well not be tomorrow... (remember all those cheap plastic coffee mugs that the liner would sometimes warp?) They disappeared from the market when the BPA thing went public. in many cases we are literally the long term case study/ guinipig. And the system is very flawed... remember thos sleeping pills from the 50-60s that caused so many children to be born without arms. All it took were some convenient lies and fake test results. And that was an AMERICAN company!...
 
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Beermeister32 said:
Any of you who have ever been in a manufacturing environment can probably attest to the fact that a lot of used unknown scrap gets re-used when molding plastics.

Sometime OK, sometimes not. It happens.

So, you want to use Grade “1” buckets and plastics with food. At least (most of the time) there are standards for food grade. Of course a lot of this is produced overseas so all bets are off there too. At least you have a shot using the best plastics for that use.

Years ago a manufacturer was producing plastic toy parts using recycled PVC cable jacketing full of lead pigments for example. Then you have issues regarding less than optimally educated or trained manufacturing employees around the world and language issues resulting in all sorts of production problems.

Can you use unknown non-food grade plastic buckets? Well heck they used to use wood vats to make beer. Is it advised? Nope.View attachment 752466
Click to expand...

I can attest to that. While in engineering school I did a summer internship at an electronics mfr. that also did its own injection moulding of some components. (This was before that sort of thing was routinely off-shored.) The company rotated the interns around the factory and each of us spent a few not-so-pleasant weeks in the plastics fab. (Sonic welding is LOUD and you wore earplugs plus earmuffs, and it was hot as hell in there.)

Mould sprue, finished parts that failed inspection, even scraps that fell on the floor and were swept up--all were thrown back in the hopper for remelting.

Of course, none of what was made there was intended for food contact. But never assume any plastic item is 100% new plastic.
 
MaxStout said:
I can attest to that. While in engineering school I did a summer internship at an electronics mfr. that also did its own injection moulding of some components. (This was before that sort of thing was routinely off-shored.) The company rotated the interns around the factory and each of us spent a few not-so-pleasant weeks in the plastics fab. (Sonic welding is LOUD and you wore earplugs plus earmuffs, and it was hot as hell in there.)

Mould sprue, finished parts that failed inspection, even scraps that fell on the floor and were swept up--all were thrown back in the hopper for remelting.

Of course, none of what was made there was intended for food contact. But never assume any plastic item is 100% new plastic.
Click to expand...
I get free buckets that originally had honey in them. I also worked in plastics many years ago so I inspect them good before cleaning one to put into service around here. I occasionally reject one because it has a piece of regrind or garbage that made it through. The honey is now in products that a lot of us consume. Enjoy !
 

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