Non food grade bucket use

[Beermeister32]

Any of you who have ever been in a manufacturing environment can probably attest to the fact that a lot of used unknown scrap gets re-used when molding plastics.

Sometime OK, sometimes not. It happens.

So, you want to use Grade “1” buckets and plastics with food. At least (most of the time) there are standards for food grade. Of course a lot of this is produced overseas so all bets are off there too. At least you have a shot using the best plastics for that use.

Years ago a manufacturer was producing plastic toy parts using recycled PVC cable jacketing full of lead pigments for example. Then you have issues regarding less than optimally educated or trained manufacturing employees around the world and language issues resulting in all sorts of production problems.

Can you use unknown non-food grade plastic buckets? Well heck they used to use wood vats to make beer. Is it advised? Nope.

 

[augiedoggy]

Has anyone demonstrated that officially? I just do my home-brew washing up in cheap bin FVs that are made from food grade plastics. It's what my homemade keg washer's made from too. These days suppliers of manufacturers are responsible for the materials the supply. They'll be ordered at a required specification determined by the intended end use. There's no need to jump through expensive regulatory hoops if, say the FDA, has already decided plastic x is food safe.

right but you can only assume its foodsafe for intended use... different plastics have different temp ranges they remain stable for. If you ever had the liner of a cooler warp or bubble on you that is because it reached a higher temp at some point than it was rated to be food safe. once a typical coolers liner goes over 170 degrees the plastic becomes unstable and starts more or less melting at this point it can be leeching chemical componds into whatever medium its in contact with. I dont know off had what the safe temp range is for a plastic bucket. honestly I dont put that much though into it as we only use them for pbw and saniclean when it comes to the brewery and the temps are never that extreme. And we only use the food grade white buckets which are plentiful and cheap.

You really dont want to assume anything, Some of the plastic pond pumps a few home brewing equipment seller were offering with thier "systems" were also not food grade or safe and I can think of one that changed thier offerings when I questioned them on this forum about it after contacting the manufacturer myself who stated they are not meant to be used for foodstuff contact. (They were also $14 pumps marked up ridiculously)

 

[augiedoggy]

Any of you who have ever been in a manufacturing environment can probably attest to the fact that a lot of used unknown scrap gets re-used when molding plastics.

Sometime OK, sometimes not. It happens.

So, you want to use Grade “1” buckets and plastics with food. At least (most of the time) there are standards for food grade. Of course a lot of this is produced overseas so all bets are off there too. At least you have a shot using the best plastics for that use.

Years ago a manufacturer was producing plastic toy parts using recycled PVC cable jacketing full of lead for example.

Can you use plastic buckets? Well heck they used to use wood vats to make beer. Is it advised? Nope.View attachment 752466

I will argue those wood vats were safer any day of the week... Back then the yeast that infected the barrel whether wild or intentional was responsible for much of the beers character. some beers are still fermented and aged in wood like bourbon barrel aged stouts.

 

[Beermeister32]

As a sidebar, years ago the 1906 Food and Drug Act created standards for food, alcohol, drugs, production and storage standards.

Prior to this food manufactures did all sorts of things in food and food production to get the product out as quickly as possible, safety be damned.

So here we are in 2021 still discussing whether you can use some procedure in materials, practices or sanitation to shortcut or reduce the cost of process. Then we don’t understand why the regulators step into your lives? This is one of the reasons for the laws against distilling for example.

Use best practices folks.

 

[augiedoggy]

As a sidebar, years ago the 1906 Food and Drug Act created standards for food, alcohol, drugs, production and storage standards.

Prior to this food manufactures did all sorts of things in food and food production to get the product out as quickly as possible, safety be damned.

So here we are in 2021 still discussing whether you can use some procedure in materials, practices or sanitation to shortcut or reduce the cost of process. Then we don’t understand why the regulators step into your lives? This is one of the reasons for the laws against distilling for example.

Use best practices folks.

Good point. but using a cooler mashtun is something many here including myself have done thinking "hey they are food grade" with that false sense of security... coicidently the highest sparge temp you want to use is just under that 170degree safety threshold.. also whats considered safe today may very well not be tomorrow... (remember all those cheap plastic coffee mugs that the liner would sometimes warp?) They disappeared from the market when the BPA thing went public. in many cases we are literally the long term case study/ guinipig. And the system is very flawed... remember thos sleeping pills from the 50-60s that caused so many children to be born without arms. All it took were some convenient lies and fake test results. And that was an AMERICAN company!...

 

[MaxStout]

Any of you who have ever been in a manufacturing environment can probably attest to the fact that a lot of used unknown scrap gets re-used when molding plastics.

Sometime OK, sometimes not. It happens.

So, you want to use Grade “1” buckets and plastics with food. At least (most of the time) there are standards for food grade. Of course a lot of this is produced overseas so all bets are off there too. At least you have a shot using the best plastics for that use.

Years ago a manufacturer was producing plastic toy parts using recycled PVC cable jacketing full of lead pigments for example. Then you have issues regarding less than optimally educated or trained manufacturing employees around the world and language issues resulting in all sorts of production problems.

Can you use unknown non-food grade plastic buckets? Well heck they used to use wood vats to make beer. Is it advised? Nope.View attachment 752466

I can attest to that. While in engineering school I did a summer internship at an electronics mfr. that also did its own injection moulding of some components. (This was before that sort of thing was routinely off-shored.) The company rotated the interns around the factory and each of us spent a few not-so-pleasant weeks in the plastics fab. (Sonic welding is LOUD and you wore earplugs plus earmuffs, and it was hot as hell in there.)

Mould sprue, finished parts that failed inspection, even scraps that fell on the floor and were swept up--all were thrown back in the hopper for remelting.

Of course, none of what was made there was intended for food contact. But never assume any plastic item is 100% new plastic.

 

[Homebrew Harry]

I can attest to that. While in engineering school I did a summer internship at an electronics mfr. that also did its own injection moulding of some components. (This was before that sort of thing was routinely off-shored.) The company rotated the interns around the factory and each of us spent a few not-so-pleasant weeks in the plastics fab. (Sonic welding is LOUD and you wore earplugs plus earmuffs, and it was hot as hell in there.)

Mould sprue, finished parts that failed inspection, even scraps that fell on the floor and were swept up--all were thrown back in the hopper for remelting.

Of course, none of what was made there was intended for food contact. But never assume any plastic item is 100% new plastic.

I get free buckets that originally had honey in them. I also worked in plastics many years ago so I inspect them good before cleaning one to put into service around here. I occasionally reject one because it has a piece of regrind or garbage that made it through. The honey is now in products that a lot of us consume. Enjoy !

 

[Beermeister32]

I will argue those wood vats were safer any day of the week... Back then the yeast that infected the barrel whether wild or intentional was responsible for much of the beers character.

Really?

 

[MaxStout]

When someone points out that, "people have been brewing that way for 700 years," I always keep in mind that much of the beer brewed 700 years ago would be unpalatable today.

 

[Beermeister32]

Not to mention, not too many microbiology labs around then (joke) nobody knew excatly what made people sick, food, old wood, hay, drippling water, rats, etc.

 

[augiedoggy]

Really?
View attachment 752479

yes really, some of the breweries in Belgium still look like this. for the lambics they pump the beers onto ancient throughs in the attic or roof for the wild bacteria in some traditional breweries.
and yes much of the old beers were nasty and full of lead even as they moved to lead based solders and laden containers. as far as the rat feces and microorganisms, The alchohol itself prevented much of the need for sanitary conditions and clean water.. I saw a documentary on this once. they even made beer with nasty stagnent pond water to show how the fermentation process cleaned up the water making it safe for consumption. then again thats also why so many drank beer and wine in mid evil times instead of water to survive.

You look at that photo and see unsanitary conditions when in reality all beers were infected with wild strains of yeast back then. at the same time the water was far more risky to drink that what came out of those barrels and vats.

 

[PCABrewing]

When someone points out that, "people have been brewing that way for 700 years," I always keep in mind that much of the beer brewed 700 years ago would be unpalatable today.

Probably true.

But there is likely a point of diminishing returns with regards to taste/quality and some point which it has to fall to the individual to decide if the return is adequate for their effort.
And, many of the improvements made have been focused on commercial interests (production/transport/market hype) VS flavor or tradition.

But probably none of us would find the offerings of food and drink from 700 years ago tolerable much less satisfactory.
Even much of the water

 

[augiedoggy]

Probably true.

But there is likely a point of diminishing returns with regards to taste/quality and some point which it has to fall to the individual to decide if the return is adequate for their effort.
And, many of the improvements made have been focused on commercial interests (production/transport/market hype) VS flavor or tradition.

But probably none of us would find the offerings of food and drink from 700 years ago tolerable much less satisfactory.
Even much of the water

Yes I agree, as I mentioned above the beer was the main staple because so many got sick from the water and lack of knowledge on how to keep it safe without using fermentation and alcohol.

Even back then though it was still the made made materials/ equipment that ended up causing the most health concerns like the lead used in pipes, kettles and solder that was at the time "safe" I read a story about a bunch of bottles of beer found buried under some stairs in an english building that was a pub a couple hundred years ago. They tested the beer and found very dangerous levels of lead.

and dont forget the story of the expedition team that ventured into the northern region of Canada to slowly dye off from lead poisoning due the the early versions of all their canned foods being sealed with lead. I stand by my comment that those wood barrels were not the thing to be worried about. There are many craft breweries still using foeders and casks today.

 

[wsmith1625]

yes really, some of the breweries in Belgium still look like this. for the lambics they pump the beers onto ancient throughs in the attic or roof for the wild bacteria in some traditional breweries.
and yes much of the old beers were nasty and full of lead even as they moved to lead based solders and laden containers. as far as the rat feces and microorganisms, The alchohol itself prevented much of the need for sanitary conditions and clean water.. I saw a documentary on this once. they even made beer with nasty stagnent pond water to show how the fermentation process cleaned up the water making it safe for consumption. then again thats also why so many drank beer and wine in mid evil times instead of water to survive.

You look at that photo and see unsanitary conditions when in reality all beers were infected with wild strains of yeast back then. at the same time the water was far more risky to drink that what came out of those barrels and vats.

Prime Video has a documentary on Belgian beers called "Belgian Beer Tour". It was free when I saw it, but now it's a $2.99 rental. It was a good watch. Anyway, they showed the open fermenters in the basements of the Belgian breweries. They had to watch out because there were spider webs all over the ceilings which were deliberately kept in place to catch the flies. The basement was dark and dusty, but the beer was world class.

 

[Beermeister32]

Interesting, but like I said before, we need to encourage and use best practices. We all bend over backwards to use clean and sanitized equipment.

Using a bucket with a suspended fly catching overhead spider webs is not to be encouraged.

Heck why not toss in some muddy old tennis shoes in the wooden vat while you’re at it.

You start encouraging that, or someone gets sick, the government will be happy to come in and shut this hobby down. I’m sure whatever brewery you viewed has an in-house lab which is monitoring for unwated microbes, whatever they are doing. Try to get insurance here for that…Woof.

 

[augiedoggy]

Prime Video has a documentary on Belgian beers called "Belgian Beer Tour". It was free when I saw it, but now it's a $2.99 rental. It was a good watch. Anyway, they showed the open fermenters in the basements of the Belgian breweries. They had to watch out because there were spider webs all over the ceilings which were deliberately kept in place to catch the flies. The basement was dark and dusty, but the beer was world class.

Ive been there.

 

[MaxStout]

Interesting, but like I said before, we need to encourage and use best practices. We all bend over backwards to use clean and sanitized equipment.
You start encouraging that, or someone gets sick, the government will be happy to come in and shut this hobby down. I’m sure whatever brewery you viewed has an in-house lab which is monitoring for unwated microbes, whatever they are doing. Try to get insurance here for that…Woof.

I could envision some local government regulating or even banning it (e.g. through zoning or health codes), and all it takes is some outraged citizen running in to a city council meeting, warning about "the guy down the street, making hootch."

Add to that the media element, as local news orgs love stuff like this. "Eyewitness news uncovers dangerous alcoholic beverages being concocted in toxic plastic buckets in home labs, right in our neighborhoods! Film at eleven."

What could be more likely is a tort claim if someone got sick from someone else's bad homebrew. It doesn't take much preliminary evidence to get past summary judgment and bringing the case to trial. You just need one motivated "victim," and a sharp personal injury attorney working on contingency. Then 6-12 jurors hear about "the guy down the street, making hootch." Or a pretrial settlement that the homebrewer's insurance may or may not be willing to pay.

If the case is adjudicated at trial, it becomes precedent in that jurisdiction, which could open the door to similar lawsuits by others.

This may be a stretch, but it's one more reason for us to be at the top of our game.

 

[augiedoggy]

Interesting, but like I said before, we need to encourage and use best practices. We all bend over backwards to use clean and sanitized equipment.

Using a bucket with a suspended fly catching overhead spider webs is not to be encouraged.

Heck why not toss in some muddy old tennis shoes in the wooden vat while you’re at it.

You start encouraging that, or someone gets sick, the government will be happy to come in and shut this hobby down. I’m sure whatever brewery you viewed has an in-house lab which is monitoring for unwated microbes, whatever they are doing. Try to get insurance here for that…Woof.

Yeah its simply not like you think, coming from homebrewing and opening my own brewpub myself a few years ago now, It was an eyeopener talking to other breweries and actually seeing thier process, Even the conversations on the probrewer forums, made me realize many homebrewers go way overboard with what they think is necessary or matters. (Myself included for years)

 

[soccerdad]

Heck why not toss in some muddy old tennis shoes in the wooden vat while you’re at it.

This is uncanny. How did you possibly know that I store my socks and undies in the foeder? Are you spying on me?

 

[augiedoggy]

This may be a stretch,

This covers it. just like comparing the use of a wooden barrel or foeder to putting socks or undies in the fermenter. I think it would be an eye opener to see what beers are brewed in such fashions and how they fare in the consumer market. Much of them are sold by the bottle.
Honestly no one condoned or even asked about brewing "Hooch" or anything in toxic barrels... they asked if home depot buckets were ok for cleaning chemistry.. im sorry but there IS a difference. I pointed out most home brewers have used coolers as mashtuns and at some point may have used them, or at the least exposed them to temps beyond thier stable foodsafe threashold.. thats an inconvienent reality that in my opinion has if anything, has more merit for concern than using an orange bucket momentarily to mix up some pbw or sanitizer. how about all the folks using painters straining bags for hops? Or now about homemade versions of cleaners like pbw all together? do you think those are certified food grade? how about most of the kettles and fermenters? do you think the manufacturers in china paid for certifications? more often not. Theres a large number of homebrewing equipment sold that honeslty has no such certifications. NSF standards? simply doesnt exist in the brewing world. Maybe is has something to do with beer not being FDA certified or regulated in the first place? Dont get me wrong breweries do get inspected, often by dept of farm and agriculture and they do check for sanitary conditions and safe practices. but its not like you or I thought it would be... even the restaurant portion with the health inspectors. Many of the things I thought they would be concerned with are simply not something they check or care about.

 

[Beermeister32]

Maybe is has something to do with beer not being FDA certified or regulated in the first place?

This just isn’t true, it is both highly regulated state by state and also now the FDA. Easy to Google all the current regs.

https://www.brewersassociation.org/...-fda-registration-fsma-compliance-flow-chart/

 

[wsmith1625]

Interesting, but like I said before, we need to encourage and use best practices. We all bend over backwards to use clean and sanitized equipment.

Using a bucket with a suspended fly catching overhead spider webs is not to be encouraged.

Heck why not toss in some muddy old tennis shoes in the wooden vat while you’re at it.

You start encouraging that, or someone gets sick, the government will be happy to come in and shut this hobby down. I’m sure whatever brewery you viewed has an in-house lab which is monitoring for unwated microbes, whatever they are doing. Try to get insurance here for that…Woof.

I'm definitely not encouraging poor sanitary practices and I'm sorry it came off that way. I was just supporting the comments about the conditions of some Belgian breweries. There are many different practices for making great beer and I was highlighting one extreme.

 

[augiedoggy]

This just isn’t true, it is both highly regulated state by state and also now the FDA. Easy to Google all the current regs.

https://www.brewersassociation.org/...-fda-registration-fsma-compliance-flow-chart/

With all due respect here, you can google them all you want, I'm commenting as a brewery owner operating since 2018.

I never said the states didnt regulate or inspect them? In fact I also mentioned the NY dept of farm and agriculture is the only one I ever heard mention of inspecting any breweries in central and western NY. It may be different for the larger breweries that distribute over state lines as a lot of things change at that point. As of this point chances are the FDA has never set foot in your local microbrewery unless they have a kitchen. The NY dept of health does regularly inspect our kitchen and bar. But as of now they still want nothing to do with inspecting or regulating our brewery. Also the only approvals we need are brand labeling and permits for serving at events or distribution. No one has ever asked us for a list of what we put in our beer at this point. These "STATE" regulations and oversight vary dramatically from state to state.

That article is from last year and talks about a recent law change regarding the FDA and that beer is now recognized as food as is to be regulated by the FDA... As far as I know as an actual brewery owner.... The FDA has not actually done much of anything in NY as of yet I am not sure about elsewhere but Id venture to guess they would start with the brewing giants. They have stated they want to start requiring breweries to disclose full recipes and nutritional info when applying to the state for brand labeling. These changes are so recent that if you were to google the topic you will get a lot of mixed answers on this. like I said at this point all we have been told is of upcoming regulation with no actual regulations that I know of being put in place on our end.
apparently only wines under 7% are regulated by the FDA (Just imagine all those unsanitary wooden presses and barrels)
according to this article Real beers are not regulated in the same way as adjuct beers.. Ive read these regulations being driven by all the crazy ingredients some craft breweries are dumping into thier wort or fermenters. The craft beer movement has exploded so quickly that the FEDs need time to catch up.
https://bevlaw.com/when-is-an-alcohol-beverage-label-regulated-by-fda/
And just to be clear I am not condoning any unsanitary practices either. I am just questioning the definition of what that is here in this thread and the comments that seem to imply wood is dirty and has no place in the modern craft beer industry which is just false. I also pointed out some the highest regarded beers in the world some from breweries that apparently would offend some here.

There are many home brewers that still believe sanitizing surfaces on preboil equipment is needed. Cleaning yes, but santizing this equipment is something thats just typically not done in breweries as its completely unnecessary since the ingredients themselves are not even sanitary at that point...

 

[Beermeister32]

I will argue those wood vats were safer any day of the week...

I think this is the quote that lit the fuse. That's a pretty broad statement. Easy to refute statements like that. Stainless steel still the standard me thinks.

Well, I've worked in business my entire life since the early 80's and I can tell you one thing you can take to the bank... Just because inspectors aren't knocking at your door today, it doesn't mean the regs don't exist and there are usually an army of inspectors just waiting on a lead to go after. So I wouldn't disclose your brewery name! Big Brother is listening.....

 

[bwible]

Is there any reason to not use a non food grade bucket for cleaning and sanitation purposes?

I’m about to get one just to grind grain into

 

[augiedoggy]

I think this is the quote that lit the fuse. That's a pretty broad statement. Easy to refute statements like that. Stainless steel still the standard me thinks.

Well, I've worked in business my entire life since the early 80's and I can tell you one thing you can take to the bank... Just because inspectors aren't knocking at your door today, it doesn't mean the regs don't exist and there are usually an army of inspectors just waiting on a lead to go after. So I wouldn't disclose your brewery name! Big Brother is listening.....

What are you talking about? I do not wish to get into a pissing match with you but we are not hiding from anyone and we are not doing anything wrong. I have stated multiple times we have been visited by inspectors and other than fixing a broken bathroom door closer we have never been in violation of anything.
Again your speculating and assuming when I'm pointing out the "FDA Regulations" you speak of are simply not yet in practice everywhere and that they are not necessarily for what you think they are even for. There is no law against using wooden barrels or foeders as you insinuate and relate to the matter.
And when they do fully enforce the new FDA regulations we have nothing to be concerned with that we are aware of. We brew traditional style beers.
Hell we dont even have any wooden casks for conditioning stouts as many do let alone wooden foeders but I have been to multiple breweries and wineries that do and they were completely legal.

That said how many people have you ever heard of being poisoned or getting ill from a beer or wine they purchased and consumed? Your chances of such a thing are far far more of a concern with restaurants. breweries that do not have effective cleaning and sanitation practices where applicable, typically produce infected beer and wont be around long unless the infection is a wanted characteristic of the beer like some sours and farmhouse styles. (Or now days I would argue sadly if they had a really good marketing team, even the worse would survive)
All we have that ever comes in contact with our beer besides stainless and food grade plastic is a hardwood mash paddle. unlike some of the brewery videos you will see on youtube we use only fda certified hoses and sanitary triclamp fittings. Our kettles like anyone else using stouts equipment have no official certifications that im aware of. (Our current plastic fermenters do have NSF certification but our new stainless jacketed unitanks do not as thats not typical) We have taken every precaution to make our entire process safe. dont forget, we are afterall, a primary consumer of our own product.

When you say you worked "in business" all your life.. can I ask what business? With all do respect thats a broad statement anyone with a job can make..

I guess I should clarify that point I was making with my original FDA statement was that Beer (until possibly very recently) has not been typically NOT FDA approved, regulated or not. because it fell into the same category as spirits. Yes that looks as if its changing. (again because of adjunct beers with food products like fruit corn, rice and even dounuts and candy added to them changing their classification). as far as regulation? I dont know all the rules, only the ones that pertain to us currently as a small NY craft brewery and our as well as others weve spokent to with brewing operations are currently are still being inspected by only the NY dept of farm and agriculture. likewise our beers are not yet regulated (other than taxes and licensing ) by anyone other than the state as we do not distribute outside the state.

 

[T Murph]

Sadly @augiedoggy as much as I hate to testify, I have been the recipient of infected beers at two brewpubs recently. One was a new brewpub. The brew master ask what I thought of his beer and became upset when I told him it was infected. A local place that I have not returned to. The second is another newer brewpub near by that produces some very good brews. Unfortunately on an evening that I was teaching a group of six the taste profiles of some different styles, two of their wheat beers were undeniably infected.. 5 of the six people at the table quickly developed stomach pains and diarrhea. The one person who was not affected did not sample either of the wheat beers. Saddest part is this is my newest favorite breweries. They make a classic pilsner that is gaining regional popularity. I'm now having a hard time wanting to return there. My point is, it happens.

 

[augiedoggy]

I’m about to get one just to grind grain into

And it seems some here would have you believe that you will be the undoing of big brother allowing you to homebrew... if that were true we would have all been banned from barbecuing or even cooking at all at home long ago.
Use common sense here people was all I was trying to say.

 

[augiedoggy]

Sadly @augiedoggy as much as I hate to testify, I have been the recipient of infected beers at two brewpubs recently. One was a new brewpub. The brew master ask what I thought of his beer and became upset when I told him it was infected. A local place that I have not returned to. The second is another newer brewpub near by that produces some very good brews. Unfortunately on an evening that I was teaching a group of six the taste profiles of some different styles, two of their wheat beers were undeniably infected.. 5 of the six people at the table quickly developed stomach pains and diarrhea. The one person who was not affected did not sample either of the wheat beers. Saddest part is this is my newest favorite breweries. They make a classic pilsner that is gaining regional popularity. I'm now having a hard time wanting to return there. My point is, it happens.

And even with the proper equipment and procedures accidents and mistakes can still happen. Typically an infected beer will not make one ill from what Ive read but I'm sure it could happen if it was bad enough or depending on the type of infection... Ive also had infected beer at breweries before and some that just tasted off due to other factors like stressed yeast. My point above is if a brewery doesnt follow good sanitation practices where it matters (random instances aside) they typically wont last long.
Ive yet to visit a nano or small microbrewery with that microbiology lab mentioned above.

 

[Beermeister32]

Construction (industrial), Construction materials and government. Had to deal with thousands of government people over the years.

Respectfully, state and federal statutes and laws are there to protect people. You start making comments about things others don’t feel safe with, and you are going to get pushback.

Then some novice reader takes your comments and makes something that sickens people. The comment about wood vats for example. Probably why the original 1906 Safe Food and Drug act was enacted, to align industry with best practices.