Non-diluted StarSan in fermenter bucket

[haaugerud]

Quoting myself, because it just made me think of a test the OP, @haaugerud, could do.

Take your (now) clean fermenter and bring it back to exact same state as you had it before, whether it being dry, damp, wet, whatever, the same state. Then add a similar amount of Starsan (or Sure San) to it, but measure it well, though! Spread it around as you did before, invert it, capturing all the run of, and measure that. Subtract from the original amount and now you may have an indication of how much remained clinging to the walls.

Don't throw out your (expensive) test Starsan, though. Make a batch of sanitizer from it, for next time. It stores well in a covered bucket.

I like the idea, but up till now many of us have considered that any amount of concentrated StarSan should be regarded as "unsafe" if mixed with the wort. Independent of what I would get as an answer, would it help me in any way to know if it is safe or not? What would be considered as safe?

I can test this, but will also buy paper to measure the pH. It may be too low.

 

[IslandLizard]

up till now many of us have considered that any amount of concentrated StarSan should be regarded as "unsafe" if mixed with the wort.

No, not any amount, it's the amount that's key to it being acceptable for consumption, or not.
As @wsmith1625 said here:

He said he drained the StarSan out leaving just residue, which I would imagine would total around 5ml. Since the dilution ratio is 6ml to a gallon of water, I would say 5 gallons of beer would safely diluted the residue IMO.

I would agree, if it's only 5 ml that remained clinging to the walls, it's probably acceptable. But with that (smaller) amount it wouldn't, or shouldn't taste perceptibly sour, though.

I can test this, but will also buy paper to measure the pH. It may be too low.

pH papers are not all that accurate, even narrow range ones. And it wouldn't change what the beer tastes like. If it's perceptibly too sour, you know why that is, you don't need a paper strip telling you that.
Do you have a friend or so who works in a lab or at a University, or school that has one? They can probably test the pH quickly and accurately.
For their effort you may want to give him/her a few bottles of your new brew.

Finished beer is typically around a pH of 4.0-4.4 depending on style, yeast, and many other factors, but may go as low as 3.8 (for non-sours) or as high as 4.8.

 

[Spartan1979]

If the "Starsan" wasn't in the original container, I wouldn't trust what the person said. There's zero reason for it to NOT be in the original container.

I bought a gallon of StarSan and after several years, the plastic bottle got dropped and it cracked. I transferred the remaining amount to a glass growler. So, zero reason is not correct.

 

[haaugerud]

No, not any amount, it's the amount that's key to it being acceptable for consumption, or not.
As @wsmith1625 said here:


I would agree, if it's only 5 ml that remained clinging to the walls, it's probably acceptable. But with that (smaller) amount it wouldn't, or shouldn't taste perceptibly sour, though.


pH papers are not all that accurate, even narrow range ones. And it wouldn't change what the beer tastes like. If it's perceptibly too sour, you know why that is, you don't need a paper strip telling you that.
Do you have a friend or so who works in a lab or at a University, or school that has one? They can probably test the pH quickly and accurately.
For their effort you may want to give him/her a few bottles of your new brew.

Finished beer is typically around a pH of 4.0-4.4 depending on style, yeast, and many other factors, but may go as low as 3.8 (for non-sours) or as high as 4.8.

@IslandLizard - got some results for you.
I remember I had two small dashes of StarSan/Sure San in the fermenter. When I poured did it in a laboratory flask now, they measured 20 ml each, summing to 40 ml.
Smeared it around in the fermenter as last time and left it on the side to gather up. Poured the remaining residue in the lab. flask again, measuring around 15 ml.
So, result here was 25 ml.

My guess is that we are looking at an amount between 20 ml and 30 ml in the fermenter before fermentation.

pH-measurement:
I have now ordered an electronic one. Will measure on monday.

Btw;
I really appreciate you all replying this fast, @IslandLizard, @Spartan1979, @wsmith1625 and @Golddiggie! Next time I will hopefully ask something that doesn't regard whether my beer is drinkable or not

 

[Golddiggie]

@haaugerud Just don't post "does this look infected??"

 

[IslandLizard]

@IslandLizard - got some results for you.
My guess is that we are looking at an amount between 20 ml and 30 ml in the fermenter before fermentation.

Thank you for the numbers.
So, yeah, you basically brewed this beer in a Starsan working solution, instead of using water.

The majority of Phosphoric Acid does not get metabolized by the yeast, only a minute amount of the Phosphate ion may be used as nutrient.
Many people drink soda (cola), so with some restraint that won't be the worst to ingest.

Not sure what happens to the dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid.
It's a surfactant, like a liquid soap. It breaks the bacteria's (and yeast's) cell walls, allowing the phosphoric acid to penetrate, killing them from the inside.

One can only wonder what would happen to your intestinal tract, its flora, and other organs when consumed in larger quantities over time.
I would not drink a pint of Starsan each day for a month, which is basically the composition of your brewing water, and thus your beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

Not sure what happens to the dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid.
It's a surfactant, like a liquid soap. It breaks the bacteria's (and yeast's) cell walls, allowing the phosphoric acid to penetrate, killing them from the inside.

Let me add, this sanitation mechanism only works efficiently above a minimum concentration (such as when diluted to a working solution, or stronger), and below a certain pH, most likely under pH 3.0, as that's what's recommended by the manufacturer.

When other components are present, such as in your case, beer (sugars, dextrins, alcohol, CO2, hop oils, etc.) and the pH is quite a bit higher (est. above 3.5) Starsan's sanitation capabilities of killing microorganisms are expected to be largely diminished. When that Starsan "enriched" beer is ingested as such, things will get even more complicated.

The main question remains: Could it cause damage to your body somehow?
The ultimate (maybe more ethical) question is are you looking for justification to drink this batch, instead of dumping it? IOW, is it really your call to consume this tainted batch, as is, slowly, a pint every 2-5 days, or simply dumping it?

My advice is still the same as Five Star's:
Dump it !!!

 

[haaugerud]

Thank you, @IslandLizard.

I agree that the picture will be more complicated when there are various other components than water in the fermenter. A lot of uncertainties..

I have planned for preparing a new brewing batch upcoming monday/tuesday. Will let the current batch rest in bottles for some days more and check the pH (just of interest). Since it's my first time brewing, it will also be interesting for me to see how much gas builds up after some days (used carbonation drops).

I think we managed to settle some pieces here and certainly; I know more about sanitation than I did before. Hope this thread can be of use if someone find themselves in a similar case and wonder - "can I still drink this?".

Edit: I can update you guys on the pH, once I got it measured.

Conclusion: The batch will be tossed.

 

[Gozie Boy]

Well, there's also 15% dodecylbenzenesulphonic acid in it.
https://www.piwine.com/media/Products/Safety-Data-Sheets/SDS-STARSAN.pdf
I would even doubt it would ferment well, given the pH of a working solution is around 2.5-2.7. That's way out of range for most yeasts.

FYI, that is the abbreviated name. The proper name is: dodecylbenzenesulphonicexpialidocious.

 

[dwhite60]

I don't dump beer. Drinking bad beer is paying penance to the beer gods for the errors I made in my process.

The batch you have I would dump without question.

 

[Vale71]

He said he drained the StarSan out leaving just residue, which I would imagine would total around 5ml. Since the dilution ratio is 6ml to a gallon of water, I would say 5 gallons of beer would safely diluted the residue IMO.

I totally disagree. When draining a working solution from a vessel what you leave behind is maybe one tenth of a thousandth of the total volume, possibly even less, that will then get diluted by the full volume of beer. That is infinitely less than the amount he would drink just by drinking a pint of his contaminated beer. That beer is unfit for human consumption and should be dumped right away, no further questions asked.

 

[Vale71]

I like the idea, but up till now many of us have considered that any amount of concentrated StarSan should be regarded as "unsafe" if mixed with the wort. Independent of what I would get as an answer, would it help me in any way to know if it is safe or not? What would be considered as safe?

I can test this, but will also buy paper to measure the pH. It may be too low.

The LD50 dose for rats is 650 mg/kg, meaning there is a 50% chance a rat will die after ingesting 650 mg of pure dodecylbenzenesulphonic acid times its own body weight in kilograms. It's unlikely that you would be ingesting that much considering that you probably weigh a lot more than the average lab rat and you didn't pour the whole bottle in your beer but still LD50 tells us nothing about how sick lower dosages might make you or whether you might sustain irreversible damage. Personally I would never try to find that out myself...

 

[IslandLizard]

it will also be interesting for me to see how much gas builds up after some days (used carbonation drops).

It takes about 2-3 weeks to fully carbonate a bottle. Many factors involved.

You could probably try some of that batch to evaluate. I expect it to taste slightly tart.
Maybe keep a bottle behind to compare with your next batch.

Let me clarify, trying to give a perspective on consumption of your tainted batch:
The Phosphoric acid content is less than in a soda (cola), not a problem.
But the biggest factor is the surfactant. Did it get broken down into harmless components during the boil and/or fermentation? Or has it remained, and is it harmful when ingesting significantly more than a mere trace of it over a few weeks or months?

In that light I don't think drinking a bottle or pint of your "Starsan Enhanced" beer will be harmful, given the guy at Five Star drank a whole pint (or quart?) to show off. But when drinking the whole batch over a few weeks, even at 1 pint or bottle a week, could it be a potential cause of health problems now or later? That's the reason you should dump it!

 

[IslandLizard]

The LD50 dose for rats is 650 mg/kg, meaning there is a 50% chance a rat will die after ingesting 650 mg of pure dodecylbenzenesulphonic acid times its own body weight in kilograms. It's unlikely that you would be ingesting that much considering that you probably weigh a lot more than the average lab rat and you didn't pour the whole bottle in your beer but still LD50 tells us nothing about how sick lower dosages might make you or whether you might sustain irreversible damage. Personally I would never try to find that out myself...

Glad you stepped on board!

 

[Vale71]

By the way, the rats that did shed the mortal coil did so through severe diarrhea so we can assume dodecylbenzenesulphonic acid is irritant to the colon. I personally wouldn't risk irritating my bowel just to save a batch of beer but as they say, "Your colon, your rules".

 

[wsmith1625]

Hi,

Just bottled my first batch of a Juicy IPA recipe. For sanitizing my fermenter I used non-diluted StarSan (30-60 ml I reckon) and used rubber gloves to distribute it in the bottom and sides of the bucket. I have later realized that this was a mistake and that the StarSan should be diluted with water. Bought my equipment used and the StarSan bottle did not have a label, but should definately have checked this.
After filling the Starsan and distributing it around the bucket, I put the lid on the let it stand upside down to drain most of it out. However, since I did not flush it, there was definately some residue left in it when I poured the wort in the fermenter.

My question is if I have to be concerned about having some residue of undiluted starsan in my fermenter with the wort? I have also asked Five Star about this, and waiting for their reply.
I have read that some claim that the StarSan breaks down to something that the yeast can feed on, and this gives me some comfort. Anyway, I have to ask - should I be concerned?

Br,
Haakon

Hey man, sorry if I gave you bad advice. My original thought was that it will be fine, but a lot of valid points were made as to why it might not be. I think we learned a lot from this thread. Good luck with your next batch.

 

[STMF]

That sour taste is probably from the PH being too high. Just read a post where someone was adding baking soda to his beer to lower the PH and reduce the sour taste. His issue was the water source.

Just a note, PH works the opposite way. Low PH = More sour.

 

[jseyfert3]

Just a note, PH works the opposite way. Low PH = More sour.

And baking soda is basic so it would tend to raise pH.

 

[haaugerud]

I hear you, @dwhite60!

To those that may be interested; @IslandLizard
Just measured the pH in this beer. pH = 2.4
Well below pH = 4-5 (the range it should be).

 

[Vale71]

That is really out of range for beer! Looks like a lot of the undiluted starsan did make it into the beer. I'm surprised the yeast handled it so well.

 

[IslandLizard]

I hear you, @dwhite60!

To those that may be interested; @IslandLizard
Just measured the pH in this beer. pH = 2.4
Well below pH = 4-5 (the range it should be).

That is really low!
It's in the "Coke soda" range.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Wort_Souring

[...] a final pH between 3.0 and 3.7 is the general target range for the soured wort and also the finished sour beer

Are you sure that pH meter is calibrated properly and giving correct readings?
pH meters should be calibrated, or at least checked, before each metering session.
Our Brew Science forum contains much info on pH meters, quality, accuracy, dependability, calibration, etc.

 

[haaugerud]

That is really low!
It's in the "Coke soda" range.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Wort_Souring

Are you sure that pH meter is calibrated properly and giving correct readings?
pH meters should be calibrated, or at least checked, before each metering session.
Our Brew Science forum contains much info on pH meters, quality, accuracy, dependability, calibration, etc.

The pH-meter was fresh out of the box and I used it straight away. Didn't calibrate it before. You think it could give so erroneous readings that I should calibrate it before I test?

 

[IslandLizard]

The pH-meter was fresh out of the box and I used it straight away. Didn't calibrate it before. You think it could give so erroneous readings that I should calibrate it before I test?

It may work fine straight out of the box, but how would you know, unless you check it against a known pH? Such as a buffer solution.

Calibrating, or at least verifying accuracy, before taking serious measurements is generally needed.
For example, if you get a pH 4.0 reading in a pH 4.0 buffer solution, it's OK to take readings in a small range around that 4.0 pH, say from 3.0 to 5.0, or even 2.0-6.0 depending on the meter. If it reads anything else, it probably benefits from re-calibration, depending on how much precision you desire.

Once you stray away from that narrow region (+/- 1 pH) around a single calibration point, best is to do a full 2 point calibration, one at 7.0 and one at 4.0, so then the slope will be known too. That should give you accurate readings between say 1.0 and 10.0, but it depends largely on your meter and probe.

Readings are becoming more imprecise the farther out they are from the calibration points or range, due to extrapolation.

 

[Vale71]

The pH-meter was fresh out of the box and I used it straight away. Didn't calibrate it before. You think it could give so erroneous readings that I should calibrate it before I test?

I wouldn't trust a PH meter to give accurate readings on the day following calibration, a fresh-out-of-the-box brand new meter might have spent up to a year in a warehouse and/or in transit and I wouldn't trust it to give me the time of day...