No oxygen dry hopping

[leesmith]

My point again is how are they delivered to the store? When they are packaged at the hop plant, are they immediately--IMMEDIATELY--purged and stored in frozen or refrigerated environments? Are they shipped that way?

Any easy thing I can do to limit any destruction on my end is worth the effort. No need to worry about what I can’t control.

[QUOTE="mongoose33, post: 8545650, member: 218809”] I have hard time believing 3 or 4 days in an environment at 65 degrees is going to make any discernable difference at all. Do what you will, it's your beer.[/QUOTE]

A few years ago people had a hard time thinking o2 caused such drastic changes to their homebrewed beer. Now there are many threads/articles on reducing o2 in every imaginable way. Some ridiculous...some would say.

Stands to reason the same attitude towards storage temps (of key ingredients to a particular style) and degradation are expressed. From both sides.

Anyways, to each his own, please keep us posted on the progress of your build and any results. I appreciate the ideas and input.

 

[mongoose33]

Any easy thing I can do to limit any destruction on my end is worth the effort. No need to worry about what I can’t control.

[QUOTE="mongoose33, post: 8545650, member: 218809”] I have hard time believing 3 or 4 days in an environment at 65 degrees is going to make any discernable difference at all. Do what you will, it's your beer.

A few years ago people had a hard time thinking o2 caused such drastic changes to their homebrewed beer. Now there are many threads/articles on reducing o2 in every imaginable way. Some ridiculous...some would say.

Stands to reason the same attitude towards storage temps (of key ingredients to a particular style) and degradation are expressed. From both sides.

Anyways, to each his own, please keep us posted on the progress of your build and any results. I appreciate the ideas and input.

So it sounds like there's a choice to be made....introduce oxygen into the beer when dry hopping, but the hops previous to that have been refrigerated/frozen, and introducing hops w/ no oxygen but they were at ferm temps for a few days.

My hops are stored in the freezer, they come out when time to add...or in this case, if they go in the "device." Since I'm already getting excellent results with what I'm doing despite the O2, I'm anticipating even better results when I can get them in there without the O2.

BTW, to extend all this with the device I'm probably going to employ....my thinking is to add them to the device with the butterfly valve closed. This will isolate them from the fermenter at the outset, which will (because i'm typically oxygenating the wort with an O2 tank and wand), have a lot of O2 in the headspace.

But I'd want to purge that space too, so I'd have to figure out a way to do that, perhaps with CO2 from a tank.

 

[mongoose33]

I've sent an email to Spike asking about having them add a second TC port to the lid....

Heard back. "We actually do not offer customization to our conicals and cannot add or remove ports to the lids- sorry about that! We need to keep the integrity of the conical as engineering has laid them out to make sure they can withstand pressure and weight. "

Fast response, but too bad. I'm going to have to consider the idea above, with using the existing port.

 

[Vale71]

This is what I did with my Unitank to enable me to dry hop with the tank fully pressurized and at a point in time of my choice.

I've added a second PRV that can never be disabled by user error (safety first!). In the case of the SSB Unitank I found it easiest to attach a tee to the end of the blow-off cane, second PRV attaches to the side port, shut-off valve to the other port. This way the tank is always protected by the PRV regardless of whether the shut-off valve is open or closed for spunding.

3" butterfly valve attaches to the top 3" TC port. 3" diameter pipe with TC attachments goes onto the valve and the first PRV (SSB provides one 3" PRV as standard equipment) attaches to the other end of the pipe.

Before pitching yeast the gizmo is removed (I pitch yeast through the 3" port anyway), the butterfly valve is opened and the dry-hop charge is dropped in. CO2 is attached to the valve with a series of step-down reducers going all the way from 3" TC to 1/4" John Guest adapter. Pressure is increased until the PRV starts venting and the gizmo is consequently purged of O2.

The butterfly valve is closed, the CO2 attachment removed and the gizmo is attached to the top port of the Unitank.

The dry-hop charge is thus kept in an oxygen-free environment and not exposed even to the fermentation by-products. The beer ferments as usual and is finally spunded to the desired carbonation.

When the time comes to dry hop the butterfly valve is slowly opened, pressure quickly equalizes and the pellets drop into the beer. Hop material will be removed with the rest of the trub/yeast through the dump valve.

Maybe I overdid it, maybe not, but it was surely as much fun as playing around with an erector set...

 

[MaxStout]

So it sounds like there's a choice to be made....introduce oxygen into the beer when dry hopping, but the hops previous to that have been refrigerated/frozen, and introducing hops w/ no oxygen but they were at ferm temps for a few days.

My hops are stored in the freezer, they come out when time to add...or in this case, if they go in the "device." Since I'm already getting excellent results with what I'm doing despite the O2, I'm anticipating even better results when I can get them in there without the O2.

BTW, to extend all this with the device I'm probably going to employ....my thinking is to add them to the device with the butterfly valve closed. This will isolate them from the fermenter at the outset, which will (because i'm typically oxygenating the wort with an O2 tank and wand), have a lot of O2 in the headspace.

But I'd want to purge that space too, so I'd have to figure out a way to do that, perhaps with CO2 from a tank.

I'm going to vote for the latter. I think the O2 is more injurious overall than the higher temp of the hops for a few days. Plus, with the low O2 arrangement, at least the hops are protected from O2 along the way. The potential harm of having hops in a low O2 environment at 68F for a week seems trivial to me.

 

[leesmith]

This is what I did with my Unitank to enable me to dry hop with the tank fully pressurized and at a point in time of my choice.

I've added a second PRV that can never be disabled by user error (safety first!). In the case of the SSB Unitank I found it easiest to attach a tee to the end of the blow-off cane, second PRV attaches to the side port, shut-off valve to the other port. This way the tank is always protected by the PRV regardless of whether the shut-off valve is open or closed for spunding.

3" butterfly valve attaches to the top 3" TC port. 3" diameter pipe with TC attachments goes onto the valve and the first PRV (SSB provides one 3" PRV as standard equipment) attaches to the other end of the pipe.

Before pitching yeast the gizmo is removed (I pitch yeast through the 3" port anyway), the butterfly valve is opened and the dry-hop charge is dropped in. CO2 is attached to the valve with a series of step-down reducers going all the way from 3" TC to 1/4" John Guest adapter. Pressure is increased until the PRV starts venting and the gizmo is consequently purged of O2.

The butterfly valve is closed, the CO2 attachment removed and the gizmo is attached to the top port of the Unitank.

The dry-hop charge is thus kept in an oxygen-free environment and not exposed even to the fermentation by-products. The beer ferments as usual and is finally spunded to the desired carbonation.

When the time comes to dry hop the butterfly valve is slowly opened, pressure quickly equalizes and the pellets drop into the beer. Hop material will be removed with the rest of the trub/yeast through the dump valve.

Maybe I overdid it, maybe not, but it was surely as much fun as playing around with an erector set...

Any pictures?

 

[Vale71]

Not right now. I'm not dry hopping the current batch and the gizmo is not assembled. To assemble it for demonstration purposes I would need to remove some parts from the fermenter and that would mean releasing pressure so it's a no go at the moment.

 

[leesmith]

No problem
I’ve read it a couple times and think i get it.

What PSI and how many times?

What I’m struggling with is the fact that it takes I think 10-12 purge/vent cycles to completely eliminate almost all o2 from any size vessel. This is according to purge chart that’s floating around on the inter webs and talked about by many.

The chart in this article:
http://www.********************/bre...rging-transferring-stabilizing-finished-beer/

 

[Vale71]

If you keep the pipe properly sized for the amount of dry hops you usually add then purging won't use up that much CO2. The SSB PRV spunds at 18 PSI (non adjustable). As the volume of the headspace is much larger than the volume of the pipe any residual oxygen will also be strongly diluted once you open the valve.

 

[leesmith]

If you keep the pipe properly sized for the amount of dry hops you usually add then purging won't use up that much CO2. The SSB PRV spunds at 18 PSI (non adjustable). As the volume of the headspace is much larger than the volume of the pipe any residual oxygen will also be strongly diluted once you open the valve.

The way I understand it in relation to the article referenced, “headspace” is the entire volume that is not taken up by some other mass...be it liquid or solid.

So if a keg is empty....that entire volume is “headspace”.

So the purge cycles and pressure needed to clear a vessel of o2 stays constant.

The smaller the headspace the less co2 needed BUT it still takes 16 pressurize/release cycles at 30psi to get to zero o2.

 

[Vale71]

I was referring to the headspace in the fermenter that will be already filled with CO2 when you open the valve. This means that any residual level of oxygen in the contraption will be diluted a further 20-30 times or even more. Compared to just opening up the fermentor and dropping in the hops the amount of O2 contamination will be minuscule.

 

[leesmith]

Your pressurizing your dry hop tube at 18psi for X amount of times....connected to but closed off from the fermenter by a valve.

Then your relying on the co2 in headspace of the fermenter to further purge the dry hop tube once you open the valve?

 

[RCope]

I saw someone do this in a fermentasaurus and all he did was vacuum seal the magnets just to be sure it was safe for contact with the wort. Pulled the outside magnet and dropped hop bag completely in the wort. I'm sure you could use two magnets turn the bag upside down and pull the bottom magnet.

So you guys are genius...I made a vacuum bag hop dropper and just tested it with some dog food. Seems to work reasonably well. I'm going to try it on my next IPA. There's 4 ounces in the pouch. The second pic shows what it looks like after I dragged the 3 magnets on the other side of the lid to the side.

 

[Vale71]

An here's a picture. I actually use a tee instead of a straight pipe as I also wanto to have a 3" sight glass in the center port.

 

[SEndorf]

I've sent an email to Spike asking about having them add a second TC port to the lid....

But it occurs to me I could make something with only the one port that would work. Like this:

View attachment 617114

That would be a perfect solution. I plan on ordering the CF-10 this spring.

 

[SEndorf]

View attachment 617301 View attachment 617302

So you guys are genius...I made a vacuum bag hop dropper and just tested it with some dog food. Seems to work reasonably well. I'm going to try it on my next IPA. There's 4 ounces in the pouch. The second pic shows what it looks like after I dragged the 3 magnets on the other side of the lid to the side.

For some reason I'm not getting this. If using a vac seal bag, how do the hops come in contact with the wort?

 

[bpinto]

For some reason I'm not getting this. If using a vac seal bag, how do the hops come in contact with the wort?

The hops aren't in the bag. Just being held up to the lid by the bag and fall in the beer when one side's magnets are removed (hinged).

 

[SEndorf]

The hops aren't in the bag. Just being held up to the lid by the bag and fall in the beer when one side's magnets are removed (hinged).

Are the hops on top of the bag? And drop with the one side magnets removed?
Sorry for the density. And I haven't even had a beer this evening.
But this looks like an interesting method. Just trying to understand.

 

[bpinto]

Are the hops on top of the bag? And drop with the one side magnets removed?
Sorry for the density. And I haven't even had a beer this evening.
But this looks like an interesting method. Just trying to understand.

Exactly. The truth is there is no bag

 

[SEndorf]

Exactly. The truth is there is no bag

DING!
Thank you. Sorta sounds like "The Matrix" but I get it......

 

[MaxStout]

View attachment 617301 View attachment 617302

So you guys are genius...I made a vacuum bag hop dropper and just tested it with some dog food. Seems to work reasonably well. I'm going to try it on my next IPA. There's 4 ounces in the pouch. The second pic shows what it looks like after I dragged the 3 magnets on the other side of the lid to the side.

You wouldn't even need the other 3 magnets for the "hinge" part. Just tape that edge with some electrical or gaffer tape.

 

[RCope]

I sealed the magnets in just to keep from losing them. I slit open the lid side of the pouch to place the "hops" into the bag and allow gravity to let them drop. MaxStout is right, I really don't need the other 3 magnets, but I plan on Starsanning the crap out of the whole thing and tape doesn't stick well to Starsan...

 

[Gravitysucks]

Heard back. "We actually do not offer customization to our conicals and cannot add or remove ports to the lids- sorry about that! We need to keep the integrity of the conical as engineering has laid them out to make sure they can withstand pressure and weight. "

Fast response, but too bad. I'm going to have to consider the idea above, with using the existing port.

I also asked Spike about adding an extra port to the CF10 when I ordered mine and got the same answer. Here's an idea that might work ,if you know someone that welds, that wouldn't cause issues with the fermenter lid. You wouldn't need to drill a very big hole as you are only dealing with gas rather than liquid. It would leave the 1.5 TC available for a butterfly valve and a hop container for some sort. You could also have the hole in the 4" TC coil cap threaded for NPT threads and use a threaded TC fitting. Just a thought.

 

[mongoose33]

I also asked Spike about adding an extra port to the CF10 when I ordered mine and got the same answer. Here's an idea that might work ,if you know someone that welds, that wouldn't cause issues with the fermenter lid. You wouldn't need to drill a very big hole as you are only dealing with gas rather than liquid. It would leave the 1.5 TC available for a butterfly valve and a hop container for some sort. You could also have the hole in the 4" TC coil cap threaded for NPT threads and use a threaded TC fitting. Just a thought. View attachment 617780 View attachment 617781

Very nice. I've got a local guy who does stainless welding, all I need do is get a TC port and have it welded on there.

 

[mongoose33]

OK, here's some further work on this. Ordered a sight glass for 1.5 TC as well as a butterfly valve. Easy to install on the port on the Spike's lid.

I did some testing with this--the only issue is bridging of the hop pellets. Once they dropped as expected, another time I had to work the valve back and forth to get them to drop, another time I had to open the valve and then knock on the side of the sight glass to get them to drop. I had 2 1/2 ounces of hops in there, 3 ounces would fit, 4 might be an issue.

I had concluded I needed a sight glass to ensure the hops had in fact dropped into the wort. I checked and I can crack open the butterfly valve a bit to allow gas to escape out of the manifold, so that should work.

Next time I'm dry hopping in the fermenter, I'm using this. I'll report on it, but it'll be a while yet. I just brewed a beer today which is occupying the fermenter; not sure what the next one will be.

 

[juggabrew]

This is one of the best ideas I’ve seen in a long time. This is why Homebrewers are crucial to the success of the brewing industry. Not sure if breweries implement this already in their process but they will eventually.

 

[Bilsch]

Saw something similar at the Sam Adams brewery in Boston. These three removable charge capsules were in a rack connected to a gas manifold. At the time it was very curious looking indeed and took a while standing there staring to figure out what they were for for.

 

[Cape Brewing]

This is one of the best ideas I’ve seen in a long time. This is why Homebrewers are crucial to the success of the brewing industry. Not sure if breweries implement this already in their process but they will eventually.

Many breweries have “CO2 dry hop ports”.

Personally I don’t think they provide a meaningful benefit but I would never remotely blame any brewery for going that route.

 

[leesmith]

OK, here's some further work on this. Ordered a sight glass for 1.5 TC as well as a butterfly valve. Easy to install on the port on the Spike's lid.

I did some testing with this--the only issue is bridging of the hop pellets. Once they dropped as expected, another time I had to work the valve back and forth to get them to drop, another time I had to open the valve and then knock on the side of the sight glass to get them to drop. I had 2 1/2 ounces of hops in there, 3 ounces would fit, 4 might be an issue.

I had concluded I needed a sight glass to ensure the hops had in fact dropped into the wort. I checked and I can crack open the butterfly valve a bit to allow gas to escape out of the manifold, so that should work.

Next time I'm dry hopping in the fermenter, I'm using this. I'll report on it, but it'll be a while yet. I just brewed a beer today which is occupying the fermenter; not sure what the next one will be.

View attachment 618335 View attachment 618334 View attachment 618333

Crush the hops while their still in the bag or put them in a bag and crush them.

Use a hammer and turn them into powder...this may prevent them from binding up.

 

[SEndorf]

Next time I'm dry hopping in the fermenter, I'm using this. I'll report on it, but it'll be a while yet. I just brewed a beer today which is occupying the fermenter; not sure what the next one will be.

Looking forward to your results!
I'm still figuring out my order list from spike for the CF-10

 

[zeptrey]

I believe NorCal Homebrew shop sales yeast brinks that can be used to dry hop.

https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Yeast-Brink-1.5-Inch-TC-2-Inch-Sight-Glass.html

 

[mongoose33]

I'm thinking also that hitting this device with a bit of high pressure CO2 might shoot them down into the wort.

 

[zeptrey]

I'm thinking also that hitting this device with a bit of high pressure CO2 might shoot them down into the wort.

Yep, here is a video demo of that.

 

[leesmith]

Yep, here is a video demo of that.

The thing I have a problem with is that your pressurizing a glass jar not rated for pressure.

It has been pointed out to me that the lid ring will pop off first before the glass breaks (between 12-15 psi)....as tested by a fellow home brewer. But I’m not comfortable with that.

It also takes about 10-12 purge vent cycles to purge any vessel to acceptable low o2 concentrations and hops of o2...and that’s at 30 psi.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

I've just gotten into closed transfers to prevent oxygen - my last batch was the first time I tried it. I have a beer fermenting right now with 3 ounces of dry hops. In the past, I used to just open the lid and pour it in - but that's obviously not ideal. How much oxygen would I be adding if I did the following?

Find a funnel with a 1/2" opening (the same as the center part of a 3-piece airlock). Put that over the airlock (after taking off the lid of the airlock, and the upside down piece in the middle), pour the hops through that, then close the airlock again. Would that help prevent oxygen, or would that be about as bad as opening the lid?

 

[Cape Brewing]

In the past, I used to just open the lid and pour it in - but that's obviously not ideal.

I’m honestly curious whether it is or not.

I skimmed the thread so if someone posted it and I missed it, I honestly apologize... but I’m curious if anyone has done a side-by-side... or more importantly done a side-by-side DO test.

I own a small micro and we just dump in the hop port.

Intuitively... when you dump hops into a fermenter that is already full of CO2, they’re going to form nucleation points and off-gas even more CO2.

I’m not remotely an expert but since CO2 is heavier than oxygen, I don’t understand where the oxygen introduction is really coming from in a meaningful way.

Like I was saying, we just dump in through the hop port and we’ve had our cans pierced and tested for dissolved oxygen and they come back extremely low every time.

Again... not at all an expert. Honestly curious if there is any analytical data on it one way or the other.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I’m honestly curious whether it is or not.

I skimmed the thread so if someone posted it and I missed it, I honestly apologize... but I’m curious if anyone has done a side-by-side... or more importantly done a side-by-side DO test.

I own a small micro and we just dump in the hop port.

Intuitively... when you dump hops into a fermenter that is already full of CO2, they’re going to form nucleation points and off-gas even more CO2.

I’m not remotely an expert but since CO2 is heavier than oxygen, I don’t understand where the oxygen introduction is really coming from in a meaningful way.

Like I was saying, we just dump in through the hop port and we’ve had our cans pierced and tested for dissolved oxygen and they come back extremely low every time.

Again... not at all an expert. Honestly curious if there is any analytical data on it one way or the other.

DO measurement has to happen more or less in real time. It gets taken up pretty quickly. Measurements in cans won't give you a good indication of levels after dry hopping.

As to your direct point, nucleation certainly helps. Dunno if you're at a scale to risk a full on geyser without a sacrificial charge, but that shows just how much CO2 can be released. Still, if I'm going through the port there's always a positive CO2 flow in before the port is opened until after it's closed. Possibly no oxygen < definitely no oxygen.

 

[Qhrumphf]

(Of course that first charge to avoid the geyser means no nucleation for the actual dry hop.

But geysers are bad. And they go viral)

 

[Cape Brewing]

. Haha

 

[Parrothead1]

Suspend a bag inside using monofiliment passed through a small hole in the cap with the other end taped down to hold in place. A little keg lube to seal around the hole and keep out air. When it's time to dry hop, snip the line and let it drop. Tape over the hole.

View attachment 616589

Nice idea but I would be worried about the krausen hitting the bag. If the hops get wet you could lose oils too early and not have much left when you finally add them.